Why did God create Satan?

[sing4joy]

He didn’t. He created Lucifer, the most beautiful, smartest, strongest etc., Cherub [these are warriors, y’know]. And when Lucifer rebelled, God did not take any gift away, except His fellowship. Lucifer is smarter than any creature, but not smarter than God…and that really ticks him off. In no area that we consider worthwhile does Lucifer surpass God. Lucifer is not worthy to be God, and that really ticks him off. I am very glad to have God.

 

[Serious]

Your answer here is something of a non-sequitur, so it is a little hard to know what you intend. You seem to be implying that if God can actualize a world where 2 people are saved and none damned (though I don’t claim to know even this much and I don’t see how you could), that he can actualize a world with 3 saved and no damned, and 4 saved and none damned, and 5 saved… and so forth.

That is exactly the point. Finally you realized it. Took you a long time.

If this really is what you intend, then you are committing the slippery slope fallacy.

It is called mathematical induction. Really, you should learn more about mathematics. Also “the slippery slope” refers to getting into a worse and worse state of affairs, not into a better and better one. You are making no sense at all.

Second, you are still failing to recognize that God’s ability to create a world with many who accept Him and none who reject Him depends not only on Himself, but on the free choices of human individuals.

Except those free choices are known to God, before he would create them, and since he is under no obligation to create those who “displease” him, he can selectively choose to create someone, or not. The only “excuse” for God to stop would be a logical impossibility, if somehow having X+1 people (all saved) would be a logically self-contradictory state of affairs.

As you keep saying God wants as many to be saved as possible, and does not want anyone not-saved. The solution is presented above. Really, I am tired of explaining the elementary logic over and over again.

 

[RobbyS]

That’s a good question—but remember that God created beings with a free will, not robots. He created beings, especially humans, as companions. One can’t be a companion with a robot. As such, you need to give these beings free will, even though suffering will entail because not everyone will “choose” correctly.

There is also the problem that we don’t grasp fully the nature of angels. To me they are like electrons. They can’t be reduced to anything like the things we can sense.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

God created his own protagonist, a protagonist who forced God Himself to go right down to the wire, to death on a cross, after being scourged by a Roman whip.

I’ve got no doubt it was all part of God’s plan in the first place, but at the same time, Satan was willing. I’d say, very willing. That is to say that God’s foreknowledge that Satan, some angels and some humans were going to end up in Hell was not enough to prevent Him following through with His plan.

It reminds me of when my father appeared in my room the night he died, as I’ve said before.

At one stage in our ensuing conversation, he cried out with some alarm, “I always was doomed! I didn’t really have any choice!”

I replied (and I was an atheist at the time). “That can’t be right!”

He responded, “Oh, it’s right, all right. You can see that from here.”

Yet later in the same exchange, he cried out, “I was WILLING.” Again, I’d say very willing.

And I suspect the devil is in the same boat - “always doomed”, but quite willing to engage in the behaviour that will condemn him. Except that he had an advantage over my father - he could see God face to face the whole time, whereas my father didn’t believe God existed, and proably even less that the devil existed.

So in one sense my father was deceived, while the devil had free will with no secrets hidden.

But because we run the risk of being deceived, and cannot see God face to face, we have the option of taking Christ’s offer of salvation, whereas the demonic choice is irrevocable - the fallen angels are not given a second chance.

The way I see it the devil is a catalyst - he speeds up the decision making process, by which we turn either to God or the devil.

Or as my old pastor put it, when I asked him the very same question, almost word for word, when he considered it for a moment, then just shrugged, and said, “Oh, he’s got a job to do I suppose.”

 

[danserr]

That is exactly the point. Finally you realized it. Took you a long time.

My you are an unpleasant and rude fellow. I have answered why this is mistaken repeatedly.

If this really is what you intend, then you are committing the slippery slope fallacy.

It is called mathematical induction. Really, you should learn more about mathematics. Also “the slippery slope” refers to getting into a worse and worse state of affairs, not into a better and better one. You are making no sense at all.

One of us isn’t.

And if you think that, then you don’t understand the slippery slope fallacy. You can look it up here.

It describes a fallacious type of argument, not necessarily, a positive or negative conclusion.

For example, studies show that taking a certain vitamin every day will prolong human life by 5 years. I conclude that taking 10 per day will prolong my life 50 years.

This leads to a positive conclusion, but it is still a slippery slope fallacy.

Your claim that if God can create two saved people with none lost, then he can create 3, then 4, then 5 etc, thus commits the slippery slope fallacy.

Except those free choices are known to God, before he would create them, and since he is under no obligation to create those who “displease” him, he can selectively choose to create someone, or not. The only “excuse” for God to stop would be a logical impossibility, if somehow having X+1 people (all saved) would be a logically self-contradictory state of affairs.

Who God creates in this case is partly dependent on the free choices of others, hence does not fall under his omnipotence.

What you are claiming is that there is a possible world where a great number of people choose to accept God and none reject God, and that since God is omnipotent, he can create any possible world, and hence can create this one.

As I have shown repeatedly, this trades on a poor understanding of omnipotence. Maybe such a possible world does exist, but whether it is actualized depends not on God’s choice, but on the choices of free people. Hence, to insist that God should be able to create it is nonsense.

Or else, maybe any world where all are saved has the serious drawback of having a small number of people (or some other serious drawback). Again, God is justified in not creating such a world.

 

[jschutzm]

Why did God create Satan when he knew beforehand that Satan would subvert his creation and cause untold suffering, death, and destruction?

Here’s an analogy that I think seems to fit: Imagine you have a large basket in front of you full of lottery tickets. Each ticket has the amount of money that you’ll win if you select it written on it, and you can take as many tickets as you like. Some tickets say $10, some say $50, some say $100, but there are a few that have negative numbers - if you select them you lose money. What would you do? Obviously any sane person would take all the tickets that get them money, and leave the ones that take money away. God, however, took the worst ticket of all - the one that said “lose a million bucks if you take this one.” So why did he do it?

Why do people get puppies…when they know that they will pee on the carpet, tear up their shoes, and bark a lot.
You could say “'cause they are soo cute” - but the correct answer is that they are willing to accept the messes and shortcomings for the companionship and love that they get in return.

We also have to avoid any and all references to TIME when we talk about God. He is beyond time - so concepts like “beforehand” have to be abandoned. There is no “beforehand” in heaven.

 

[couponfit]

Why did God create Satan when he knew beforehand that Satan would subvert his creation and cause untold suffering, death, and destruction?

Here’s an analogy that I think seems to fit: Imagine you have a large basket in front of you full of lottery tickets. Each ticket has the amount of money that you’ll win if you select it written on it, and you can take as many tickets as you like. Some tickets say $10, some say $50, some say $100, but there are a few that have negative numbers - if you select them you lose money. What would you do? Obviously any sane person would take all the tickets that get them money, and leave the ones that take money away. God, however, took the worst ticket of all - the one that said “lose a million bucks if you take this one.” So why did he do it?

Does God love all of his creations? If God is capable of loving all–then he is capable of loving Satan too.

We don’t really know why. I think we must focus on God’s answer to Satan–Jesus Christ. We have Jesus and thus we do not need to worry about Satan. Satan is a reminder of what will happen if we choose to disobey God. Just the notion of being with him is shocking to most. No one can imagine what it must be like to be Satan but the word hell comes to mind. Thus Satan serves as a point of reference for ourselves and is proof that mankind deserves heaven.

 

[Poseidon]

Why do people get puppies…when they know that they will pee on the carpet, tear up their shoes, and bark a lot.
You could say “'cause they are soo cute” - but the correct answer is that they are willing to accept the messes and shortcomings for the companionship and love that they get in return.

We also have to avoid any and all references to TIME when we talk about God. He is beyond time - so concepts like “beforehand” have to be abandoned. There is no “beforehand” in heaven.

But if you could get a puppy that wouldn’t pee on the carpet, bark, or eat your furniture you would get that one over the troublemaker. It just seems to me that God was perfectly capable of preventing all the woes that have befallen the world, but he didn’t - he actually knowingly created the thing that would lead to his creation’s downfall. Doesn’t seem very logical to me.

And you’re right about the time thing, but I really don’t have any other way of visualizing it, so time’s the best I can do.

 

[Serious]

We also have to avoid any and all references to TIME when we talk about God. He is beyond time - so concepts like “beforehand” have to be abandoned. There is no “beforehand” in heaven.

Not true. Time is a measurement of change. Without some kind of a time, there can be no change and can be no action. An action without change is an oxymoron. (What would be the difference between action and inaction? If the word “action” is to have any meaning, there must be a change and therefore there must be a time.)

1. Satan (or Lucifer, or the devil… the name is unimportant) is NOT eternal. Therefore Satan was created by God. Since God “acted” when he created Satan, there was a time before he acted, and there is a time since then. This is elementary logic.
2. God’s omniscience means that God knew what Satan will do before he created it. That is “foreknowledge”. God was under no obligation to create ALL the angels.
3. Therefore God could have created only those 2/3rd-s of the angels who did not decide to rebel later on, snd thus he could have spared the world of the “disruption” caused by the act of rebelling.

 

[Serious]

My you are an unpleasant and rude fellow.

Insults don’t work. I simply expressed my astonishment that finally you realized what I was saying all along.

 

[sing4joy]

Why are so many of you being mean, sarcastic and rude to each other? What kind of witness is THAT for the love of God through Jesus Christ. I would say it is very damning. I also imagine that Lucifer/Satan is getting a big laugh out of all this. Shame on all of you who have treated a fellow Christian with disrespect. :nope:

 

[tonyrey]

It just seems to me that God was perfectly capable of preventing all the woes that have befallen the world, but he didn’t - he actually knowingly created the thing that would lead to his creation’s downfall. Doesn’t seem very logical to me.

The fatal flaw in your “logic” is that God didn’t create a** thing **but an independent being. Nor is there any guarantee that another independent being wouldn’t have been a malign influence.

In the materialist’s scheme of things good and evil, free will and moral responsibility don’t exist anyway. So it doesn’t make sense to refer to “woes”. Everything is in the iron grip of determinism and we are no more than unimportant, impotent spectators!

 

[tonyrey]

Also “the slippery slope” refers to getting into a worse and worse state of affairs, not into a better and better one. You are making no sense at all.

Statements which are a perfect description of your own descent to total scepticism which is self-refuting. In an irrational universe there is no rational basis for anything whatsoever…

 

[Tarvintheone]

our god is an inferior one. he doesnt have evil in his world so he needs to create it, to imagine it, in order to see.
our god is not the big god, the big gorilla brother of the jungle.
so his toy, satan, that he has created has dark root inspiration.
satan is not the real satan, the scorpion of east or there where the sun always lacks, the friend of god that poison the angelic world, .
I have by myself satanic roots, a ‘son’ of three small scorpions of northeast, spreading sadness(like islam or catholicity), and boring emotions.

 

[Jesusisone]

---

Why did God create Satan when he knew beforehand that Satan would subvert his creation and cause untold suffering, death, and destruction?

Here’s an analogy that I think seems to fit: Imagine you have a large basket in front of you full of lottery tickets. Each ticket has the amount of money that you’ll win if you select it written on it, and you can take as many tickets as you like. Some tickets say $10, some say $50, some say $100, but there are a few that have negative numbers - if you select them you lose money. What would you do? Obviously any sane person would take all the tickets that get them money, and leave the ones that take money away. God, however, took the worst ticket of all - the one that said “lose a million bucks if you take this one.” So why did he do it?

Why did God create Satan? The question is really no different than why does God allow Satan to do what he does.

This question has many different forms in truth. Why did God create a physical world with death? Why does God allow death? Why did God create suffering? Why does God allow suffering? Why did God create evil? Why does God allow evil? Ect, ect, ect. It’s honestly the same question repeated but with a different label.

I will attempt to answer these questions using scripture as my guide. First, its important that we establish a criteria. A method to understanding God by the words of the inspired.

Why did God create?

1. God created in order to have a relationship with his creation.

Why can’t God create beings that will have a relationship with him in heaven? Without death, pain, suffering, evil, ect?

1. The “Angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.” 2 Peter 2:11
   God did create a place which is eternal where things do not rust, decay, ect. And its the Lords promise that his children will see such a place. With him in eternity, pure existence, as God is pure existence.

God created the physical world for him. To have a relationship with all of creation and not just angels. I am including the bird, the bees, and the trees.

What about Satan, the bad angel.

1. God created Satan in order to obtain all righteousness. God is perfect and his actions likewise are perfectly done, and perfectly justified. God knew full well by giving creatures free will that they may/will reject his creation and him in the process. Just because they willingly reject God does not mean Gods love for them isnt infinite. God loves them so much he allows them to rebel of their own will and choose hell (death).

When I say God is all good and omnibenevolent (all loving/all good) I mean that. That includes being good and doing good to those who do you wrong or do wrong. God is not being unfair to them(the sunshines on both the good and the wicked).

Let me give examples of what I mean and why it fullfills all righteousness.

Example 1: Lets say God already knowing the end result and places those who reject him in hell from the start. If he did that then those in hell (not experiencing the chance at life) would wonder why they deserve it, “I did not do anything” and they would be right. They would have just accusation to bring before the Lord. They would cry “Lord Lord if you had only given me the chance I would have followed you and loved.” Even though the Lord knows what their saying isnt true.

Example 2: Lets say there isnt the option of hell or death eternal. That God just creates the perfect paradise with everyone that predestinedly already chose him. Lets keep all the good apples and not a single bad one! I can answer this one two ways. 1. Where is the free will? 2. God knows such a world is devoid of choices and experinces. This also goes against his nature.

One could also argue if God implanted me with the knowledge of good and evil in this state (not a robot). That I might stll desire to taste a reality where evil could exist simply because I have never tasted it before. If God denies me then I am a slave to a higher purpose. Gods nature being all good would allow me the choice.

If you havent got this vibe in bible already I would like to refer you to 2 Peter chapter 3 verse 9. “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness: but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” This passage concerns the return of Christ. Our Lord spares this earth for the single unborn child that might be saved.
The end comes when the son of perdition shows himself standing as if he were God (much like emperior Nero). If the Lord did not intervene then scripture tells us no flesh will survive. God will not spare one soul because our Lord desires his house and his banquet to be full.

Last thing to touch up on. The subject of death. For the sake of one who wishes it upon themselves God acts. For the sake of one God allows. But evil will eventually run its course.

Side note: Regardless of my personal interpretations of scripture. I stand firm behind catholicism as true. If I say anything that contradicts the doctrine of catholicism then I am humble. I believe it is Gods church. I urge all christians of other faiths to return to their roots, as one people, as one belief, as one church established by God. If we dont have faith in her? Then how can we have faith in scripture which came out of her?

P.S. This is coming from a non catholic. I was born and raised non-denominational and tasted the variety. It is my opinion out of the many Catholicism is the truth and way into the Light. Thank you.

If you have further questions please ask.

I believe the only subjects I missed was pain and suffering and why doesnt God physically help us now. Its the temptation Satan offered God/Jesus in the desert. Thank you!

 

[LethalMouse]

If God’s creations are those that he loves…then he loves Satan like a wayward child.
If you knew your child was going to become horrible eventually, but you also knew you would get years with him to love, would you chose to not have your child?

I would also put it if you ever loved someone that hurt you epically…but felt in the end the experience of the love was worth the pain? On top of it all it is generally thought Lucifer was closest to God…so God got to love him the most for a time.

 

[Aloysium]

Angels are messengers. I can’t say I know much about them. If I think of them as beings who whisper in my mind, words of faith bring me closer to God, those of doubt, away. We chose the voice to listen to.

Logic is powerful, revealing the interwoven threads of the tapestry that is the truth. Lies entangle us and leave us drowning in confusion.

The capacity to understand becomes a liability, when we appropriate for ourselves what belongs to Him who is supreme, the truth having become something we decide. With that, our imagination no longer sees reality, but illusion.

A mind that that is able to know will be a mind that may choose not to listen. Ignorance comes with the territory.

Interestingly and not surprisingly, it is when we give up that we finally open ourselves to that knowledge that is other and transcendent to the mundane.

 

[clem456]

Not true. Time is a measurement of change. Without some kind of a time, there can be no change and can be no action. An action without change is an oxymoron. (What would be the difference between action and inaction? If the word “action” is to have any meaning, there must be a change and therefore there must be a time.)

1. Satan (or Lucifer, or the devil… the name is unimportant) is NOT eternal. Therefore Satan was created by God. Since God “acted” when he created Satan, there was a time before he acted, and there is a time since then. This is elementary logic.

The creature is in time, God is not.

1. God’s omniscience means that God knew what Satan will do before he created it. That is “foreknowledge”. God was under no obligation to create ALL the angels.

God’s knowledge is not fore-knowledge since God is outside time. It is simply knowledge. Time is for creatures not the creator. Of course God is not obligated to do anything.

1. Therefore God could have created only those 2/3rd-s of the angels who did not decide to rebel later on, snd thus he could have spared the world of the “disruption” caused by the act of rebelling.

“Could have” is a human thing, it is meaningless in the context we are discussing. There is no “could have” with God, there is simply “is”, or what is real. God knows all possibilities and it is pointless to consider what could have been outside that reality.

It is in God’s nature to create. God is an explosion of creative love. He creates freely without holding back. The risk of creating and loving freely is that your creatures will not reciprocate. And so evil exists by free will choice.
God is rejected. He suffers this rejection on our behalf in the person of Jesus Christ. He makes us to share abundant life with him, and when we reject him, he goes so far as to participate even in that!!
That is how recklessly God creates and loves. He does not hold back his love conditioned by rejection.

 

[Aloysium]

The creature is in time, God is not. God’s knowledge is not fore-knowledge since God is outside time. It is simply knowledge. Time is for creatures not the creator. Of course God is not obligated to do anything. “Could have” is a human thing, it is meaningless in the context we are discussing. There is no “could have” with God, there is simply “is”, or what is real. God knows all possibilities and it is pointless to consider what could have been outside that reality. It is in God’s nature to create. God is an explosion of creative love. He creates freely without holding back. The risk of creating and loving freely is that your creatures will not reciprocate. And so evil exists by free will choice.
God is rejected. He suffers this rejection on our behalf in the person of Jesus Christ. He makes us to share abundant life with him, and when we reject him, he goes so far as to participate even in that!! That is how recklessly God creates and loves. He does not hold back his love conditioned by rejection.

I would say that God has knowledge of all time as He is in all time as its Father.

Additionally, He is aware where He meets us in time, of our challenges. He is there through the grace of His Holy Spirit and by virtue of the sacrifice of the incarnate Son, Jesus Christ, who has saved and redeemed us. We are warned through our conscience, our dialogue with God, when we are being tempted with sin. God is aware of the choice we are about to make and is there to help us to remain in, and should we fall, to return to His good graces.

At the beginning, we could have chosen not to partake of what belongs to Him alone, but we did not. Here we see what happens when eternity interfaces with time. We have Adam reaching for the tree and in that instance, the hand of man that does so, is nailed to the tree as it drives in the spike. We try to become like gods, and we find God becoming one of us. We die as He dies, as was foretold to us, that would happen should we appropriate what is His. The sin, He transforms into the greatest demonstration of Divine love. All in one eternal act, outside of time, revealed in time in the birth, death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.