Why did God create the universe in the first place?

[Charlemagne_III]

I think another question along the same lines would be, what is God’s purpose if he created nothing?

I don’t expect that God needs a purpose. God just is.

For our sake, of course, the purpose of worshiping God is to thank him for creating us.

Otherwise we are ingrates.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I think from his point of view, God always created the universe. I think from our point of view, he created it at some point in his infinite existence, although I cannot imagine infinity having any points. Bear with me–** if he always created the universe, then it must be that creating the universe is a natural manifestation of his nature**, which is love. It didn’t happen at a specific time, because remember, for God there was no time. So we should forget the idea that God went along for eons without doing anything and then one fine day decided he would create a universe.

He is. Things don’t just happen with him-- they are. He is. The universe is. From our point of view, the universe was created. From his point of view, the universe is created. That’s how I see it. YMMV

Yes, there is no clock in eternity. Yet there is eternity.

 

[oldcelt]

No, it can’t be curiosity, because you deists believe he just created the world then turned his back on it.

We believe that he didn’t interfere with it further. Observation of results is another matter and Deists have a variety of opinions on that matter.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

We believe that he didn’t interfere with it further. Observation of results is another matter and Deists have a variety of opinions on that matter.

Well, would maintenance be a form of interfering?

When you buy a car, you don’t just leave it in the garage and forget about it.

You drive it. And then, from time to time, you fine tune it.

Is that your definition of interference?

 

[oldcelt]

Well, would maintenance be a form of interfering?

When you buy a car, you don’t just leave it in the garage and forget about it.

You drive it. And then, from time to time, you fine tune it.

Is that your definition of interference?

In a human sense…yes…
So far as the universe, stars explode, planets collide even galaxies overrun each other. Observation, albeit human observation, doesn’t seem to show any maintenance of the universe…it just keeps happening.

 

[Amandil]

In a human sense…yes…
So far as the universe, stars explode, planets collide even galaxies overrun each other. Observation, albeit human observation, doesn’t seem to show any maintenance of the universe…it just keeps happening.

Which to claim that is the result of Deism obviously begs the question.

Because if God is not actively involved in love with sustaining creation, but rather he is just a “curious watch maker”, without any love at all for His creation, then there is no reason for anything to exist.

Meaning that in Deism there is no answer to the real possibility of non-existence.

And neither is there any real reason for existence to begin with.

Meaning that nihilism is the only purpose in life.

Thus you’re no better off than atheism.

 

[oldcelt]

Which to claim that is the result of Deism obviously begs the question.

Because if God is not actively involved in love with sustaining creation, but rather he is just a “curious watch maker”, without any love at all for His creation, then there is no reason for anything to exist.

Meaning that in Deism there is no answer to the real possibility of non-existence.

And neither is there any real reason for existence to begin with.

Meaning that nihilism is the only purpose in life.

Thus you’re no better off than atheism.

You gave a long run of your suppositions, leading to the answer that you wanted in the first place. I gave my answer a few back…curiosity.A highly intelligent and powerful force is capable of creation for the sake of curious observation.

Without that curiosity I wouldn’t be here, however accidentally that may have been. So, I’m happy that God is a curious creator.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Without that curiosity I wouldn’t be here, however accidentally that may have been. So, I’m happy that God is a curious creator.

Again, this presumes that God didn’t know how his creation would turn out. But if he wanted to know out of curiosity alone, he would stick around to find out, not turn his back on Creation and walk away.

He just doesn’t make sense … this deistic god of yours. Glad I don’t know him or want anything to do with him. He seems like a very cold fish. Don’t you agree?

 

[oldcelt]

Again, this presumes that God didn’t know how his creation would turn out. But if he wanted to know out of curiosity alone, he would stick around to find out, not turn his back on Creation and walk away.

He just doesn’t make sense … this deistic god of yours. Glad I don’t know him or want anything to do with him. He seems like a very cold fish. Don’t you agree?

It is very easy to observe something without interfering with it. So far as personalities, I prefer the Deist God to the God that the OT relates or how He supposedly manages people and things today. Better indifference than cruelty.

 

[meltzerboy]

It is very easy to observe something without interfering with it. So far as personalities, I prefer the Deist God to the God that the OT relates or how He supposedly manages people and things today. Better indifference than cruelty.

Well, you know that’s a bit of an oversimplification of the G-d of the OT (Hebrew Bible). In a sense though, G-d, Whose nature is not fully revealed to us, is portrayed as conflicted, both angry and merciful, and ready to interact and engage with us mere mortals, as when Abraham and Moses plead to Him to subdue His wrath against His disobedient people. In a way, G-d “needs” us to complete the incomplete Creation He began by means of our own moral behavior, and He welcomes our questioning and arguing with Him.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

It is very easy to observe something without interfering with it. So far as personalities, I prefer the Deist God to the God that the OT relates or how He supposedly manages people and things today. Better indifference than cruelty.

Explain to me how a father and mother indifferent to the welfare of their child, not involved in his life, not showing him love, not disciplining him, not educating him in morals … is not practicing felonious cruelty.

 

[oldcelt]

Explain to me how a father and mother indifferent to the welfare of their child, not involved in his life, not showing him love, not disciplining him, not educating him in morals … is not practicing felonious cruelty.

Remember, my belief is based on observation, just like yours. I don’t see a loving, attentive God in either system.

 

[oldcelt]

Well, you know that’s a bit of an oversimplification of the G-d of the OT (Hebrew Bible). In a sense though, G-d, Whose nature is not fully revealed to us, is portrayed as conflicted, both angry and merciful, and ready to interact and engage with us mere mortals, as when Abraham and Moses plead to Him to subdue His wrath against His disobedient people. In a way, G-d “needs” us to complete the incomplete Creation He began by means of our own moral behavior, and He welcomes our questioning and arguing with Him.

Oversimplification is a common thing on chat boards, and you are correct about my statement. The comparison of what was taught to me is in serious conflict with what I have read and certainly with life experience. Since I didn’t leave those writings, and we truly do not know who did, I have chosen the route of personal observation.
I find my beliefs to be correct, but, if anyone takes notice, I do not try any sort of recruiting. Each must find their truth in the time we have, IMHO.

 

[tonyrey]

Which to claim that is the result of Deism obviously begs the question.

Because if God is not actively involved in love with sustaining creation, but rather he is just a “curious watch maker”, without any love at all for His creation, then there is no reason for anything to exist.

Meaning that in Deism there is no answer to the real possibility of non-existence.

And neither is there any real reason for existence to begin with.

Meaning that nihilism is the only purpose in life.

Thus you’re no better off than atheism.

An impotent Creator is useless, worthless, purposeless and meaningless!

 

[tcjjmcf]

God is Spirit, and God is Love. Since love seeks to go beyond the self, the Father is constantly pouring Himself into the Son. As part of this, He created that which is the opposite of Himself - the material universe, as a gift to the Son that the Son might express Himself through. In a similar way that you might give paints & canvas to an artist, so the material universe allows the Son to express Himself in a manner that is beyond His natural state. It is the Son who has ordered the stars, caused galaxies to come & go. it is He who supervises the rising & falling of suns & planets, and the creation of humanity.

In the fullness of time, the Son emptied Himself to take on the form of creation itself, raising creation to a new status under His universal Lordship. This new Creation is being returned to the Father, as resiprocation of the Father’s gift. Thus, we, mere creatures as we are, are caught up in the dynamic drama of the Holy Trinity, being at Oneness with the Son through His Love, to the Glory of the Father.

So, the Universe exists as an act of love by the Father, has been redeemed as an act of love by the Son. And the name of this love is the Holy Spirit.

Yours explanation is very well said and seems to capture the essence of why God created the universe. The only thing I would add is the thought that God is infinite in all things and is not in need of anything, so His reason for bringing us into existence had to be out of pure love, love for His Son, and love for us. Thank you for your insight.

 

[Amandil]

You gave a long run of your suppositions, leading to the answer that you wanted in the first place. I gave my answer a few back…curiosity.A highly intelligent and powerful force is capable of creation for the sake of curious observation.

And it buggers the mind that any Being who has the apparently infinite knowledge and power of creating the cosmos and everything in it, with its vast complexity and intricate order, would be “curious” about anything but would already see and know the purposes and ends of His creation.

That the Being which exists outside of time and whom created time would necessarily know the outcome of all time, as Shakespeare knew the outcome of Hamlet.

Without that curiosity I wouldn’t be here, however accidentally that may have been. So, I’m happy that God is a curious creator.

With curiosity you wouldn’t exist period, nothing would. A wholly self-sufficient being wouldn’t create out of “curiosity”.

Watchmakers don’t create watches out of “curiosity”, they have very concrete and explicit reasons and ends in mind: to make a watch.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Watchmakers don’t create watches out of “curiosity”, they have very concrete and explicit reasons and ends in mind: to make a watch.

Yes, and when the watch breaks, they go about fixing it. As God did many times in the Old and New Testaments.

 

[oldcelt]

And it buggers the mind that any Being who has the apparently infinite knowledge and power of creating the cosmos and everything in it, with its vast complexity and intricate order, would be “curious” about anything but would already see and know the purposes and ends of His creation.

That the Being which exists outside of time and whom created time would necessarily know the outcome of all time, as Shakespeare knew the outcome of Hamlet.

With curiosity you wouldn’t exist period, nothing would. A wholly self-sufficient being wouldn’t create out of “curiosity”.

Watchmakers don’t create watches out of “curiosity”, they have very concrete and explicit reasons and ends in mind: to make a watch.

Revealed religions tend to believe that they have a deep understanding of God. I am not certain how far His power extends or how great it is. I think it to be possible that He has other projects and concerns…just possible.

His existence out of time may mean that time seems to flow very much for Him as it does for us. Since none of us have ever existed out of time, who’s to say? So far as the universe ever being broken that is impossible to determine because we have no frame of reference. We have never seen another universe to compare.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Revealed religions tend to believe that they have a deep understanding of God. I am not certain how far His power extends or how great it is. I think it to be possible that He has other projects and concerns…just possible.

Just possible? And just possibly he doesn’t have other things to do?

There can only be a deep understanding of God if God has deeply revealed himself to us.

And we take it as a given that God is not just curious, but that he is deeply involved with his creation, or why would his power extend to creating the universe and everything in it?

Do you think this God of yours has an intellect? Or is your God a cold, mindless Force?

It doesn’t seem so, since you believe he created the universe out of curiosity.

That translates to consciousness, and to deep consciousness, deep enough to expect a relationship between himself and his creatures who are reaching out for a deep understanding and relationship with him.

 

[vindicated]

He made so many Wii people, He needed a place to put them…?