Why did God create us to need Him?

[bfree1216]

So I learned recently that God created us and doesn’t need a dang thing from us. When I read that, I almost couldn’t believe it. It’s so freeing! God doesn’t need anything from us, he just wants what’s best for us! That definitely is true love.

But then I was thinking, well, we need God though. I mean going back to the fall, looking around at our society today, it’s clear to me that we need God. But then it almost feels self-defeating because God doesn’t need us, but we need Him. God created us to need Him…is that selfish? It definitely seems like it. Why couldn’t He have created us to not need Him?

It seems to me that need is essentially the opposite of love. We know God is truly all-loving because He doesn’t need a thing from us. But we need Him all the time, so how can we ever love Him? Or obviously we can’t love Him as much as He loves us, but can we even love Him at all?

And I’m not advocating for the other side here, because claiming we don’t need God leads to a whole bunch of un-fun things. But it seems like we either enslave ourselves to sin, or we enslave ourselves to God. Either way is slavery, and it just seems like God could’ve created us to not need Him. Thoughts on this?

—

Side note: I’ve been doing a whoooole lot of soul searching lately and posting a whole bunch on CAF, and you all have been SO helpful. I promise I only come here when my research fails me, and you all have been fantastic. Thank you for your help and support!

 

[sudy]

God may not need us but he does love us. We’re not on the same level… we need him because he willed us into existence… if that ceases, we cease to be, so naturally we need him.

 

[bfree1216]

Oh absolutely yes, I couldn’t agree more. But to create something with the requirement that the created needs the creator seems selfish. I mean I know it’s not, because God can’t be selfish, but it just feels that way I guess? As in, God could’ve created us in some way that the created doesn’t need a creator (at least continually), no?

 

[bfree1216]

Also, big fan of analogies here (I’m on a Chesterton kick and that man has to be the master of analogy), so I’ve been trying to relate this to maybe a parent/child or artist/artwork scenario. The creator doesn’t need the created in any of these scenarios, but the created needs the creator. This makes sense to me. But God could’ve broken that rule in creating us, no? So as to set us free?

 

[Convert3]

But it seems like we either enslave ourselves to sin, or we enslave ourselves to God. Either way is slavery, and it just seems like God could’ve created us to not need Him.

I’ve never felt like a “slave” to God. If anything, I’ve never felt more free.

 

[sudy]

Agreed, loving God frees us from all sins. There is a kind of sense that we don’t need God… in that we are created with an immortal soul, and that soul will continue. If you choose to love God and do his will, you get to spend eternity with him, if you choose otherwise, you get to spend eternity without him.

 

[Gorgias]

God created us to need Him…is that selfish? It definitely seems like it. Why couldn’t He have created us to not need Him?

Well… it all depends on what you mean by “need”.

God not only created the universe, He sustains it. In other words, without that will to keep his creation in existence, it would cease to exist. (At some point – “the end of time” – the universe will cease to exist, and God will create a “new heavens and new earth.”)

So, if by “need”, you mean that we’re dependent on God sustaining creation, then yeah – we need God. But, that’s not a bad thing, is it? I mean, what we’re saying is that God loves us so much that not only did He create us, but He sustains our existence. That’s love, right?

On the other hand, maybe you mean something different by “need.” Are you attempting to say that, by God’s design, our ultimate goal is to seek Him and love Him and desire eternal life with Him? That’s not a bad thing either, is it? After all, it means that the way we express our love for God is our desire to be with Him. That’s a good thing, no? Not ‘slavery’, but ‘desire for what is good’. That’s called virtue, isn’t it?

Maybe you mean something different when you say that we ‘need’ God. It might help if you could be a little more precise about what you mean by ‘need’, and why it equates to ‘slavery’…

 

[Vico]

So I learned recently that God created us and doesn’t need a dang thing from us. When I read that, I almost couldn’t believe it. It’s so freeing! God doesn’t need anything from us, he just wants what’s best for us! That definitely is true love.

But then I was thinking, well, we need God though. I mean going back to the fall, looking around at our society today, it’s clear to me that we need God. But then it almost feels self-defeating because God doesn’t need us, but we need Him. God created us to need Him…is that selfish? It definitely seems like it. Why couldn’t He have created us to not need Him?

It seems to me that need is essentially the opposite of love. We know God is truly all-loving because He doesn’t need a thing from us. But we need Him all the time, so how can we ever love Him? Or obviously we can’t love Him as much as He loves us, but can we even love Him at all?

And I’m not advocating for the other side here, because claiming we don’t need God leads to a whole bunch of un-fun things. But it seems like we either enslave ourselves to sin, or we enslave ourselves to God. Either way is slavery, and it just seems like God could’ve created us to not need Him. Thoughts on this?

—

Side note: I’ve been doing a whoooole lot of soul searching lately and posting a whole bunch on CAF, and you all have been SO helpful. I promise I only come here when my research fails me, and you all have been fantastic. Thank you for your help and support!

Catechism

1 God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. …

1822 Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God.

1823 Jesus makes charity the new commandment .96 By loving his own "to the end,"97 he makes manifest the Father’s love which he receives. By loving one another, the disciples imitate the love of Jesus which they themselves receive. Whence Jesus says: “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love.” And again: "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."98

1832 The fruits of the Spirit are perfections that the Holy Spirit forms in us as the first fruits of eternal glory. The tradition of the Church lists twelve of them: "charity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, chastity."112

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. …

 

[bfree1216]

Great points! Regarding “‘need”, I think it might help if I provide the background of how this question came up.

I was thinking about the fall, and how at the moment of temptation, Adam and Eve needed to rely on someone outside of themselves (God) in order to resist temptation. They had two choices: rely on themselves, or rely on God. They chose the former, and well…we know the rest.

So the question is, why did God make us so that we had to rely on him? This is the sense in which I mean “need”. Why didn’t God create us so that we had everything we needed within ourselves?

To maybe answer my own question, does this maybe have to do with free will?

 

[sudy]

Everything we have comes from God. God is a community of love, and we are a community of love. As to Adam and Eve relying on themselves to resist temptation, I’d be more inclined to say they were after selfish gains… wanting what the tree of knowledge had to offer, according to the serpent.

 

[SeraficLeo]

To be fair to Jesus, He didn’t make us such that we even need to know that we need Him. In the absolute relevant sense of our needing God, He beneficially provides it (He sustains us in being). God allows us to take Him completely for granted, even: if that’s selfish, we’d all do so well to be so selfish.

 

[fide]

tru

I haven’t seen “truth” introduced yet into this discussion. We need God to keep us in existence, since we are non-necessary creations - we do not possess “existence” in our nature (if we did, we’d be gods too, eternal and was never “not” in existence. So being contingent on our Creator as a Sustainer as well, we eternally need him to exist.

But more than that, we need God because God is Truth and we need truth to live. We are made for communion with Him, and thus we need to be True, and we need to be Loving, since He is Truth itself and He is Love itself.

 

[Gorgias]

I was thinking about the fall, and how at the moment of temptation, Adam and Eve needed to rely on someone outside of themselves (God) in order to resist temptation. They had two choices: rely on themselves, or rely on God. They chose the former, and well…we know the rest.

Hmm… I don’t think I’d frame it up like that.

When we’re tempted, it’s ultimately a question of the decision we ourselves make. We might pray to God for grace, but in the end, it comes down to an individual choice that an individual person makes. That was true for our first human parents, and it’s true for us.

Now… if the question is “whose rules do we follow, God’s our our own?”, then I’d agree that our first human parents decided to follow their own rules. But, that’s not a question of “need” so much as “freely-willed disobedience”.

So the question is, why did God make us so that we had to rely on him? This is the sense in which I mean “need”. Why didn’t God create us so that we had everything we needed within ourselves?

Well… He kinda did, didn’t He? He gave us rationality, and he gave us memory, and He gave us a conscience and free will. That’s all that’s in play in this question, isn’t it?

To maybe answer my own question, does this maybe have to do with free will?

I’m thinking that maybe this is a free will question (which would mean it’s not a “need” question)…

 

[po18guy]

It is all about the multiplication of love - the most powerful force in the universe. Mary’s spirit magnifies the Lord - which seems impossible, but is an excellent point to ponder. Our love of God does the same, but for slightly different reasons. God’s love was so immense that He clearly felt the desire to share it. Thus, we exist to know Him, to love Him and yes, to serve Him. Love without service can become self-centered, conceited.

Saint Paul writes that in God, we live and move and have our being.

This is a continuous process each moment of our lives. He created us and He is sustaining us this very moment. Is there enJOYment to be found in life? Do you love God? Do you love anyone? That love has its source in God and serves to magnify Him. Our experience of that love is every reason we need to be grateful.

 

[bfree1216]

Thank you so much, everyone! @fide, your comment on truth is particularly helpful. @gorgias, thank you so much for the breakdown. Free will in particular is a truth that I’ve been forgetting so often lately, and it’s such a fundamental idea. @po18guy, your explanation of the multiplication of love makes great sense.

Seriously, thank you to everyone for your help in clarifying this!