Why did God create us?

[De_Montfort]

I hate concupiscence. I wish I never had it!

Totally agree with this!

 

[snarflemike]

Why did not God make us perfect in the first place? That way we would not have to suffer.

He did. Adam and Eve were as perfect as Mary was.

With my imperfections, I have a default setting of “going to hell” and it is hard to be a good person. I hate concupiscence. I wish I never had it.

So why does God want me to be a masochist?

He wants you to actually choose to be with him, instead of forcing you to be with him. To be able to make that choice, you have to be able to choose the opposite. People (including you and I) choosing the opposite is the cause of your suffering.

 

[BobCatholic]

He did. Adam and Eve were as perfect as Mary was.

Nope. They weren’t.

Either the serpent spoke plainly, and they had the imperfection of stupidity, or
the serpent was slick, and they had the imperfection of naivete or
the serpent was like 60 feet tall, and both of them had the imperfection of fear.

Either which way, Adam had the imperfection of cowardice (he blamed his wife and took zero responsibility)

And they got punished due to the results of their imperfections.

He wants you to actually choose to be with him, instead of forcing you to be with him. To be able to make that choice, you have to be able to choose the opposite. People (including you and I) choosing the opposite is the cause of your suffering.

In order to make the correct choice, it takes a lot of effort on our part. To go to heaven takes a great deal of suffering and effort.

To go to hell, just sit there.

Some choice.

If we had a real choice, it would be equally easy to choose either side.

 

[nightranger]

He created us to suffer.

Sure seems that way, I agree

 

[snarflemike]

Nope. They weren’t.

Either the serpent spoke plainly, and they had the imperfection of stupidity, or
the serpent was slick, and they had the imperfection of naivete or
the serpent was like 60 feet tall, and both of them had the imperfection of fear.

Either which way, Adam had the imperfection of cowardice (he blamed his wife and took zero responsibility)

And they got punished due to the results of their imperfections.

I guess the fallen angels were also created imperfect then. And the angels who remained with God were created perfect.

In order to make the correct choice, it takes a lot of effort on our part. To go to heaven takes a great deal of suffering and effort.

To go to hell, just sit there.

Some choice.

If we had a real choice, it would be equally easy to choose either side.

You’ve just invented that standard out of whole cloth. In any case, you either believe God grants sufficient grace to each to be saved, or you don’t believe that. Grace is the great equalizer.

 

[fedupbeliever]

It would seem in order to torture us with unending frustration, pain, unfulfilled wants, and suffering. It’s called God’s infinite love.

 

[jon_hansen]

Why did God create me? Isaiah 43:1-7 and Revelations 4:11 mentions for His glory and His pleasure. Why do mothers and fathers want children? I think we want them for someone to love and for them to love us. To this end may we glorify God in all that we create (with His help).

 

[nightranger]

It would seem in order to torture us with unending frustration, pain, unfulfilled wants, and suffering. It’s called God’s infinite love.

Ahh, another disillusioned catholic, well I am too my friend. By my account that makes three of us so far in just this one thread.

 

[snarflemike]

It would seem in order to torture us with unending frustration, pain, unfulfilled wants, and suffering. It’s called God’s infinite love.

Assuming there is some serious component to your post, why don’t you tell us how God should have done things differently. Then we can explore the ramifications of your new and improved God.

 

[De_Montfort]

He did. Adam and Eve were as perfect as Mary was.

God will not neither in his mind or in all creation be exalted as He is in the incomparable Mary the Mother of God. Not even the highest angel including all creation angels and saints.

 

[snarflemike]

God will not neither in his mind or in all creation be exalted as He is in the incomparable Mary the Mother of God. Not even the highest angel including all creation angels and saints.

Which doesn’t change (or even speak to) my point, that Adam and Eve were created perfect, every bit as perfect as Mary. Of course, unlike Mary they did not remain perfect.

 

[De_Montfort]

Which doesn’t change (or even speak to) my point, that Adam and Eve were created perfect, every bit as perfect as Mary. Of course, unlike Mary they did not remain perfect.

It would be better to say they were created sinless like Mary, not perfect like Her for no one compares to Her pefections and Her love and glory for God.

 

[nightranger]

We are all called to suffer with him

You are correct, and quite frankly I’m very weary of it. Not so much me, but the suffering of others. Suffer Suffer Suffer. That’s all the Church ever seems to be about. There’s never anything uplifting or happy. I swear if somebody tells me to “pick up my cross…” and “unite my suffering…” one more time, I think I’ll explode.

 

[BobCatholic]

I guess the fallen angels were also created imperfect then. And the angels who remained with God were created perfect.

You are comparing apples and roast beef. Angels were created perfect and saw God’s face and saw him for who he was.

In addition, they did not have to ever suffer during their time of trial (whatever teensy tiny amount that was) UNLIKE US.

You’ve just invented that standard out of whole cloth.

Nope. Read the lives of the saints and how hard they suffered. They could not sit still and be saved.

In any case, you either believe God grants sufficient grace to each to be saved, or you don’t believe that. Grace is the great equalizer.

Grace helps in the spiritual realm. For the temporal realm, we’re on our own. God hasn’t provided me the grace to get a job and thus does not care about me.

 

[De_Montfort]

You are correct, and quite frankly I’m very weary of it. Not so much me, but the suffering of others. Suffer Suffer Suffer. That’s all the Church ever seems to be about. There’s never anything uplifting or happy. I swear if somebody tells me to “pick up my cross…” and “unite my suffering…” one more time, I think I’ll explode.

I know it’s hard and only Christ can give us the wisdom of the Cross, but never Christ without the Cross, or The Cross without Christ.

I have a book called God Alone, and it’s all the writtings of St. Louis de Montfort. One of the books he wrote was Friends of the Cross. It would be a good read and a great help to you I am sure of it!

 

[nightranger]

Grace is the great equalizer.

Respectfully, I don’t think so Mike. If “Grace is the great equalizer,” no one would be in hell.

 

[snarflemike]

Respectfully, I don’t think so Mike. If “Grace is the great equalizer,” no one would be in hell.

Your argument requires that God has created some who are destined, through no fault of their own, to be condemned to hell. That’s Calvinism, not Catholicism. If God desires all to be saved, as he does, how could he not supply all sufficient grace to be saved?

Your argument also denies human free will, again in contradiction to Catholic teaching.

 

[BobCatholic]

Respectfully, I don’t think so Mike. If “Grace is the great equalizer,” no one would be in hell.

In addition nobody would suffer temporal sufferings if grace were the great equalizer.

Grace only deals with the spiritual.

 

[nightranger]

I have a book called God Alone, and it’s all the writtings of St. Louis de Montfort. One of the books he wrote was Friends of the Cross. It would be a good read and a great help to you I am sure of it!

I appreciate your kind words, sincerely I do. But I have read and seen and heard all of the doctrine of suffering that I care to.

 

[sandomenico]

You are comparing apples and roast beef. Angels were created perfect and saw God’s face and saw him for who he was.

In addition, they did not have to ever suffer during their time of trial (whatever teensy tiny amount that was) UNLIKE US.

Nope. Read the lives of the saints and how hard they suffered. They could not sit still and be saved.

Grace helps in the spiritual realm. For the temporal realm, we’re on our own. God hasn’t provided me the grace to get a job and thus does not care about me.

BobCatholic,

God created angels perfect as angels, and Adam and Eve perfect as human creatures (with preternatural gifts beyond that original perfection). Adam and Eve knew God. They walked and spoke with Him in the Garden. He tested them as He tested the angels, to prove their love. He knew Adam and Eve would fall, but He did not test them to make them fall. That, unfortunately, is the image of a malicious God that plagues our modern society.

Adam and Eve were not created to suffer. They chose suffering and death because they chose themselves over God. And they were not perfect beings, only perfect humans.

Suffering is a condition of salvation, not of existence. Adam and Eve did not deny themselves, as we must in the example of Christ, if we hope to achieve what He promised us. All saints suffer because Christ did, and “no servant is greater than his master.”

Is Grace restricted to the spiritual realm alone?

Isn’t temporal work the very essence of our ability to praise God? Adam was a gardener, Eve, the mother of living; Christ, a carpenter, Mary, the Mother of the children of God. Are we not called to pray without ceasing, making every action a return to the Lord?

Isn’t our very work a gift of God to help us return on a debt we cannot pay without His help? Isn’t His proof of Love the fact that He sends us His Grace to sanctify all our works?

God love you,
sandomenico