Why did God even create us if He knew that some would go to hell?

[marci]

The original question hasn’t been fully discussed. The comments have primarily been focused on the choices of humans after they have been born. The OP is asking why did God bother creating man at all if he knew that so many would go to hell? Yes we choose, but He knew what most would choose, so why did He bother?

Also, if you think about punishment in terms of parent punishing child, we can all agree that although the punishment may cause the child and the parent distress, the parent knows that it is for the good of the child. However, this punishment is temporary, Hell is forever.

Another question could be why did God create the Angels when He knew that a great number of them would disobey Him and cause the creation of Hell to begin with?

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

The original question hasn’t been fully discussed…

Another question could be why did God create the Angels when He knew that a great number of them would disobey Him and cause the creation of Hell to begin with?

You started out lamenting the original question hasn’t been fully discussed and then sidetracked the thread by starting another quesion.

God is good, and if evil is an absences of good then it is an absences of God. God could not anticipated evil for He doesn’t not know evil, not the way created sentient beings (angles and human beings) knows evil. A patient can suffer pain but not know why, the doctor can know why but doesn’t feel the patient’s pain. God can know everything and does everything possible to show His Love but He can not make choices for people. To talk about disobeying God, like it is ineviable that takes aways from free-will, and to say they only going to do it anyway takes away from how Great God’s love is for them.
Nothing that happens to a person that can take away from God’s immense Love for them when He created them.

I can uinderstand humans not fully understand Who God is, but not the Angels. God created the Angels with the knowledge He is reason of their existance, and that He is so Loving there is no reason to disobey Him. Angels must have know there is no reason at all to reject God, but they did anyway - it is that incomprehensible denial of a Loving God that made it so evil for them.

 

[greylorn]

Why would God create us if some of us would end up in hell? Even if only one person would end up in hell, wouldn’t that be enough to prevent God from creating humanity?

It seems better for none of us to exist then for some persons to spend an eternity in hell, right?

+HELP+
Originally asked by someone at Yahoo Answers
answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AqCqsxF8Y4491kY.pcNJFhLwDH1G;_ylv=3?qid=20100726141322AAMc4zh

You pose worthy questions. I like your honesty of attribution. The answer to this one will arrive amid the information that answers another recently addressed post of yours. (Have you had a sudden fit of theological curiosity, or what? If so, good!)

The answer to this one is so simple that you probably won’t accept it unless you derive it for yourself. Here is a clue. Forget the theosophical babble, the contingent stuff and the essential beings, and all the philosophical jargon. It is only there to muddle your mind, because the clowns presenting it are just as confused as you are, but less honest about it.

Consider a fundamental teaching of “Sherlock Holmes,” which can be found on the internet in a much more succinct form than my version:

**When you have considered and logically eliminated all the obvious possibilities, those which are consistent with your beliefs, and with conventional beliefs and opinions, whatever remains is the truth. **

By way of clue, I propose that God exists, the “soul” exists, and your question is valid. Now you are free to open your mind to the simple answer.

 

[jkiernan56]

By way of clue, I propose that God exists, the “soul” exists, and your question is valid. Now you are free to open your mind to the simple answer.

Still purporting God and creation came into being at the same time because of the law of thermodynamics? Pantheism is no answer either …

 

[Luke_K]

By way of clue, I propose that God exists, the “soul” exists, and your question is valid. Now you are free to open your mind to the simple answer.

You’re proposing that God doesn’t care about souls ending up in hell. Fortunately, we Christians have the crucifix as proof that God does.

 

[catholic1seeks]

You pose worthy questions. I like your honesty of attribution. The answer to this one will arrive amid the information that answers another recently addressed post of yours. (Have you had a sudden fit of theological curiosity, or what? If so, good!)

The answer to this one is so simple that you probably won’t accept it unless you derive it for yourself. Here is a clue. Forget the theosophical babble, the contingent stuff and the essential beings, and all the philosophical jargon. It is only there to muddle your mind, because the clowns presenting it are just as confused as you are, but less honest about it.

Consider a fundamental teaching of “Sherlock Holmes,” which can be found on the internet in a much more succinct form than my version:

**When you have considered and logically eliminated all the obvious possibilities, those which are consistent with your beliefs, and with conventional beliefs and opinions, whatever remains is the truth. **

By way of clue, I propose that God exists, the “soul” exists, and your question is valid. Now you are free to open your mind to the simple answer.

So… what is the answer, then? Haha…

No, I’m fine with asking questions. I’m still Catholic even when I want to better understand something. Our Church is 2000 years old, and I’m sure my “objection” has been brought up before many times.

I think part of the answer lies within whether it is better to NOT exist then to exist in hell…or not. Some answerers say that metaphysically, it is better to exist. I don’t know much about metaphysics or philosophy, but just on the responsive side of things, I really don’t see how existing in hell–eternal suffering–is better than not existing at all. Not existing is like ZERO while hell is like NEGATIVE (Heaven being positive).

But then, I also understand the fact that MANY do choose Heaven. Is it better to allow some to go to hell while at the same time letting many go to Heaven THAN it is for no human to exist? I think we have to take into account that, too.

Also, I agree with the one person who asked the question on angels. Angels do not reproduce and so are not contigent upon each other like our existence is. Why not create only the angels that would choose God? Hmm…

I know this question is above all of us because we are talking about eternal realities. I’m sure there’s an answer somewhere. I’d just like to hear others.

I’ve even asked JIMMY AKIN!!!**** And he said he would answer, but it’s been 6 months!!! He replied that he was very busy, though.

 

[greylorn]

So… what is the answer, then? Haha…

No, I’m fine with asking questions. I’m still Catholic even when I want to better understand something. Our Church is 2000 years old, and I’m sure my “objection” has been brought up before many times.

I think part of the answer lies within whether it is better to NOT exist then to exist in hell…or not. Some answerers say that metaphysically, it is better to exist. I don’t know much about metaphysics or philosophy, but just on the responsive side of things, I really don’t see how existing in hell–eternal suffering–is better than not existing at all. Not existing is like ZERO while hell is like NEGATIVE (Heaven being positive).

But then, I also understand the fact that MANY do choose Heaven. Is it better to allow some to go to hell while at the same time letting many go to Heaven THAN it is for no human to exist? I think we have to take into account that, too.

Also, I agree with the one person who asked the question on angels. Angels do not reproduce and so are not contigent upon each other like our existence is. Why not create only the angels that would choose God? Hmm…

I know this question is above all of us because we are talking about eternal realities. I’m sure there’s an answer somewhere. I’d just like to hear others.

I’ve even asked JIMMY AKIN!!!**** And he said he would answer, but it’s been 6 months!!! He replied that he was very busy, though.

Young lady,
You must take your own question more seriously if you expect to find the answer.

I’ll not offer it here until you do some honest work of your own, although I’m sure I have on other CAF threads. From your response, I expect that you’ve not understood anything I’ve written, for your “thinking” on the subject is simply a reiteration of beliefs.

If you could have found your answer within the realm of current beliefs, you’d not have bothered to post your question. Why persist in revisiting them? If you could not find a hamburger in the dumpster on your first try, why not at least move on to a different dumpster instead of scrounging in the same bin?

There are even better alternatives.

You are unusual enough to be interesting. You keep asking the right questions. Even your query about angels is on point. Reread my previous note until you understand it, and actually do your own research. You’ve asked all the questions you need to find the answers.

I don’t know or care who “Jimmy Akin” is. Perhaps instead of asking questions about things that won’t make any difference in your life, even if someone spoon feeds you the answer, you should go meet J.A. and figure out why he’s important to you. After that, you can get back to metaphysical curiosities.

Good luck!

 

[greylorn]

You’re proposing that God doesn’t care about souls ending up in hell. Fortunately, we Christians have the crucifix as proof that God does.

I’m happy for you. Personally, I try not to confuse symbols and icons with reality, but we all have different ways of dealing with the confusions presented by the ongoing conflict of reality and beliefs.

Do your symbols really belong in a “philosophy” section?

I’m not a vampire. I’ve worn a crucifix around my neck, and knelt before some that were larger than life, and in full daylight yet. I’m still here. Waving yours won’t make me or the questions I pose, or try to address, go away.

I found plenty of symbols in churches, mosques, oriental temples and even stranger places (like universities and dungeons), and all are associated with dogmatic beliefs, Here I’d prefer to encounter individuals who are doing their best to apply honest thought and logic to the questions and mysteries posed by our very existence.

 

[greylorn]

Still purporting God and creation came into being at the same time because of the law of thermodynamics? Pantheism is no answer either …

Nope. God first. Then, long afterward, creation of the universe.

Pantheism is a gang of nitwit soap opera pseudo-gods who could not create a decent hamburger, squabbling amongst themselves about who gets to eat it. It is definitely not an answer, except perhaps to a quiz show question.

However, the division of labor among a number of differently talented individuals has been a fine solution to many complex engineering problems. It won us some wars and got us to the moon. It builds highways, cars, computers and skyscrapers. It developed the technology which enables you and I to courteously exchange opinions well out of shotgun range.

If a number of intelligent beings are hanging around with nothing to do, why not put them to work?

 

[MindOverMatter2]

THank you for your response, but it’s not getting to the heart of the objection. Why would God create AT ALL if even one person would go to hell? Why is existing in hell better than not existing at all? How could God permit some to go to hell rather than not create at all?

First of all you seem to think that Gods knowledge and being is separate from Gods creative act, as if they are two separate events. Ontologically speaking, God does not know what God does not create. God only knows that people sin because God timelessly created them.

Secondly; existence is perfectly good by nature, and thus God is justified in bringing personal beings into this world, because it is good. That people choose to act against the will of existence is of no consequence to the fact the perfect good supersedes human interests and wants. You ought to choose the good, thus if you do not, the fault lies with you and not God. People often mistake this kind of good for slavery, but in reality they confuse selfishness with good sense. Only the perfect good can set us free and fulfil our being in its entirety. We must choose to be saved, if we are truly free beings; and freedom is an expression of Love. This is a just act by God.

People want love, but they want love to serve and to be in servitude to their will. They want the good to bend and change according to their wants. It seems to me that Human beings either reluctantly serve God, or they seek not to serve God at all. There are very few people who can be permitted the word “Holy”. Deep down I believe that we would all prefer to be our own Gods; and if we could fulfil our selves, I can almost guarantee that everyone would abandon God despite the fact that he created us.

We are selfish creatures. None of us, according to our will alone, deserves the kingdom of perfection.

 

[Dameedna]

It’s an excellent question, and shows the deep humanity within the person posing the question.

Ultimately a God that chooses to create a creature, giving it free will, makes that God ultimately responsible for the concept of free-will, and the ultimate choices and devestating effects.

This yahoo individual has gained(innocently so) a greater understanding of love, which negates entirely the concept of an eternal suffering.

The question that should be posed, is this. Will the choice to be “removed” from God, be one made during a finite life, where the result of that choice is infinite? Or is it more loving, that the choice, to go back to god, is also an infinite choice?

The problem that most people have with this whole hell concept, is not one where a person may need to be punished to learn something new and grow closer to what is good. It’s that the state, remains in place(The state of hell) with no possibility for change, for eternity.

it’s one of the reasons why I support the view that some christian theologies propose, is that the gates of Hell, are alway’s wide open and anyone can leave at any time. The choice, is eternal, not the “result” of a finite choice.

So the yahoo question is a good one, and no-one that I’ve read who supports the “finite” choice resulting in “infinite seperation” view, has ever been able to come up with a response, that correctly represents the concept of unconditional love.

Cheers
Dame

 

[jkiernan56]

Ultimately a God that chooses to create a creature, giving it free will, makes that God ultimately responsible for the concept of free-will, and the ultimate choices and devestating effects.

Ultimately responsible? what did God “make” you do today Dame? what nonsense … uugh … ad nauseum

 

[catholic1seeks]

Young lady,

YOUNG LADY? Who said anything about me being a lady!!!??!

hahaa…

But I’m happily a guy, thanks

 

[catholic1seeks]

No, greylorn, i think I know what you’re saying. You think I’m trying to satisfy my difficulites with some sort of assurance and get any answer I can from my faith. You want me to someone be led away from my faith with my question. No, I don’t think that’s whats happening. I’m happy to go where the truth leads me, but my faith is too strong for this little difficulty to have any serious effect.

I think the answer lies within WHETHER OR NOT it is better to exist in hell than to not exist at all. There have been good answers explaining why it is better to exist than to not exist.

++

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

No, greylorn, i think I know what you’re saying. You think I’m trying to satisfy my difficulites with some sort of assurance and get any answer I can from my faith. You want me to someone be led away from my faith with my question. No, I don’t think that’s whats happening. I’m happy to go where the truth leads me, but my faith is too strong for this little difficulty to have any serious effect.

I think the answer lies within WHETHER OR NOT it is better to exist in hell than to not exist at all. There have been good answers explaining why it is better to exist than to not exist.

++

In my estimation, it doesn’t appear as though you are going to hell anyway…so who cares about your question? Remember what happened to Lot’s wife and the people who were not on Noah’s ark. Also remember what happened to Lot’s husband, Noah, and Job. If you can make sense of that, you wouldn’t even be asking questions; you would be spending this wasted time in prayer.

 

[greylorn]

No, greylorn, i think I know what you’re saying. You think I’m trying to satisfy my difficulites with some sort of assurance and get any answer I can from my faith. You want me to someone be led away from my faith with my question. No, I don’t think that’s whats happening. I’m happy to go where the truth leads me, but my faith is too strong for this little difficulty to have any serious effect.

I think the answer lies within WHETHER OR NOT it is better to exist in hell than to not exist at all. There have been good answers explaining why it is better to exist than to not exist.

++

You will need your strength, for traditional beliefs are being sorely tested, and will be severely pressed as the communists proceed with their inexorable takeover of the last significant free nation.

I only took your question in the direction it went, and to your credit, I took it seriously.

You have a good mind and will find your own understanding, when you make it your own.

At the moment you, as are most of us, a product of your programming. As such, belief systems more powerful than you own your mind. Be sure to cough up the union dues, lest they sell it out before you acquire the power to own your own thoughts.

 

[greylorn]

YOUNG LADY? Who said anything about me being a lady!!!??!

hahaa…

But I’m happily a guy, thanks

Perhaps you should take a close look at your carefully constructed large print tag lines.

Or get a trusted female friend to read your posts and provide feedback. What you get back will help you evaluate the trustworthiness of the friend.

 

[greylorn]

Ultimately responsible? what did God “make” you do today Dame? what nonsense … uugh … ad nauseum

While I do not agree with Dame Edna’s confused post (she signs on as an atheist/agnostic, but posts like a born-again Christian), I dislike your reply.

In an earlier post I referenced your quality intelligence and sense of humor. This reply of yours pretty much makes me a liar.

Your reply to Dame Edna could have come from any dogmatic, uneducated nitwit seeking to make the regular posters to CAF look really stupid. Surely you can correct it.

 

[Paul_Rimmer]

Why would God create us if some of us would end up in hell? Even if only one person would end up in hell, wouldn’t that be enough to prevent God from creating humanity?

An alternative possibility is that God knows that, at the end of time, everyone comes to heaven who really wants to be there. Maybe that’s everyone who has ever been born.

It seems better for none of us to exist then for some persons to spend an eternity in hell, right?

It does seem better to cease existing than to be in eternal torment unwillingly. The viceral affect of imagining hell does more to convince me than St. Thomas Aquinas’s argument that existence has an intrinsic virtue, being closer to God by virtue of simply being, even in hell. But to each his own.

 

[Paul_Rimmer]

According to the Catechism; the cheif punishment of hell is seperation from God.

We are free to choose to be with or without God.

It would be cruel of God to create us and give us free will yet force us to follow him.

Free will allows us to choose who to follow; God’s gift of heaven is open to everyone. Yes; he knew many would reject him; but his gift to us is very valuable…

This very argument suggests that everyone who wants to be with God should be with God (who would give his son a rock if he asked for bread?), and no one could make an informed decision about these things without really understanding both consequences (heaven and hell), suggesting to me that, if God is both good and rational, hell must not be permanent. You’re there as long as you do not desire to be God.

Think of it like this; why do parent’s have kid’s even though they know the kids will die eventually? It is because this Gift of life is so very precious; it surpasses any suffering, death or rejection.

This is true. But I wouldn’t relegate any of my children to eternal torment, unless they genuinely desired to be there in order to be apart from me. And that would break my heart.