Why did God even create us if He knew that some would go to hell?

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This very argument suggests that everyone who wants to be with God should be with God (who would give his son a rock if he asked for bread?), and no one could make an informed decision about these things without really understanding both consequences (heaven and hell), suggesting to me that, if God is both good and rational, hell must not be permanent. You’re there as long as you do not desire to be God.
Hell describes a permanent state of being that is “chosen” by the free agent. God knows the human heart better than you and I; and while a person might not want to suffer in hell for all eternity, this does not mean that this same person wants to be a servant of love for all eternity.
 
This very argument suggests that everyone who wants to be with God should be with God (who would give his son a rock if he asked for bread?), and no one could make an informed decision about these things without really understanding both consequences (heaven and hell), suggesting to me that, if God is both good and rational, hell must not be permanent. You’re there as long as you do not desire to be God.

This is true. But I wouldn’t relegate any of my children to eternal torment, unless they genuinely desired to be there in order to be apart from me.
Beings in hell genuinely desire to be apart from God.
 
Hell describes a permanent state of being that is “chosen” by the free agent. God knows the human heart better than you and I; and while a person might not want to suffer in hell for all eternity, this does not mean that this same person wants to be a servant of love for all eternity.
This is very true. I hope that everyone chooses to be a servant of love for all eternity, and so everyone ends up in Heaven. I cannot say that this is certain (that would be the heresy of Origenism), but I can hope that it will happen anyway, however unlikely it may be.

Never underestimate the breadth and power of God’s saving grace.
 
Why would God create us if some of us would end up in hell? Even if only one person would end up in hell, wouldn’t that be enough to prevent God from creating humanity?

It seems better for none of us to exist then for some persons to spend an eternity in hell, right?

+HELP+
Originally asked by someone at Yahoo Answers
answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AqCqsxF8Y4491kY.pcNJFhLwDH1G;_ylv=3?qid=20100726141322AAMc4zh
I know this is old news, but I came across it and thought I would give my two cents.

As to why does God create humans if he knnows that some people will go to hell? God is love, it is the nature of love to want to multiply and share that love. Look at sex, it is an act of love that brings life. So God created humans to share his love with and so that we might choose to love him as well. But some of us choose not to love God and to completely seperate ourselves from God’s love. But that doesn’t change the fact that God is still love and still seeks to share his love and to multiply it.

So why doesn’t he just not make the people who will go to hell? Again I think the answer lies in he gave us free will and in love. How loving is a God who will only make the people he knows will follow him? How is it love to not give creatures life and the opportunity to seek His love? If he never created them then they would never have the chance to seek his love. and even in hell he still loves them. If a person were to run for president and before the election remove everyone who would vote against him how could he be considered a good person. In fact you would consider such a person a dictator. Ultimately, we can’t truly answer the question, we are not God and do not understand him. But I think it lies in the fact that it wouldn’t be love if he only made the good people.

And it would be awfully lonely spending all eternity with only yourself to talk to 😛
 
I know this is old news, but I came across it and thought I would give my two cents.

As to why does God create humans if he knnows that some people will go to hell? God is love, it is the nature of love to want to multiply and share that love. Look at sex, it is an act of love that brings life. So God created humans to share his love with and so that we might choose to love him as well. But some of us choose not to love God and to completely seperate ourselves from God’s love. But that doesn’t change the fact that God is still love and still seeks to share his love and to multiply it.

So why doesn’t he just not make the people who will go to hell? Again I think the answer lies in he gave us free will and in love. How loving is a God who will only make the people he knows will follow him? How is it love to not give creatures life and the opportunity to seek His love? If he never created them then they would never have the chance to seek his love. and even in hell he still loves them. If a person were to run for president and before the election remove everyone who would vote against him how could he be considered a good person. In fact you would consider such a person a dictator. Ultimately, we can’t truly answer the question, we are not God and do not understand him. But I think it lies in the fact that it wouldn’t be love if he only made the good people.

And it would be awfully lonely spending all eternity with only yourself to talk to 😛
The entire long standing problem is easily addressed by this simple shift in thinking:

The entity to which we refer as the human soul has always existed. God did not create it, so He cannot be responsible for its poor behavior.

This concept is supported by the second version of the Genesis creation story. Gen.2:7.
 
The entire long standing problem is easily addressed by this simple shift in thinking:

The entity to which we refer as the human soul has always existed. God did not create it, so He cannot be responsible for its poor behavior.

This concept is supported by the second version of the Genesis creation story. Gen.2:7.
Hello, Greylorn:

Do you think that the 2nd version - which is an earlier depiction - overturns the version in Genesis 1:27?

“27God created man in the image of himself, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them.”

If the entity called the “soul” has always existed, where did it repose? Remember, the meaning of the word, “create,” is not the watered down version of it we find roaming about today.

L. Ron Hubbard, of Scientology fame, placed the age of souls (thetans) at 95 billion years, give or take. God therefore, pre-dates souls, according to that time line. If Hubbard is correct, God would still have had to create them, would he not?

Furthermore, finite creatures cannot create other finite creatures. They can be causal, but not creative. Most causes presuppose existing materials out of which a thing is brought about. Creation is the only cause that doesn’t presuppose anything.

Another question: if one’s parents have five children, and four turn out great, but one turns out to be a terrible person, are they responsible for his behavior (after, of course, he became an adult)?

The answers to these questions are integral to your hypothesis, in my opinion.

God bless,
jd
 
Hello, Greylorn:

Do you think that the 2nd version - which is an earlier depiction - overturns the version in Genesis 1:27?

“27God created man in the image of himself, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them.”
Reply 1 of 2.

JD,
Your questions are excellent and pertinent, and you are correct that the answers must be integral to my hypotheses. I used the plural form of hypothesis because you’ve addressed only the one I presented in prior post. Others are required to make sense of things.

You must know from prior correspondences that I’m nota Bible guy, and do not attempt to interpret either the Torah or the New Testament, or the Kuran, Book of the Dead, etc. as the inspired writings of the Creator of the Universe, figuring that He’d have done a much better job of it than we see, and would not have given us two different creation stories, both written by captive Hebrews during the Babylonian Captivity, and both clearly cribbed from Babylonian creation stories which they in turn stole from some Greeks.

Since both stories are IMO written by humans, the question of whether one supersedes or conflicts with another seems irrelevant. Neither are adequate creation models. Discussing the demerits of Big Bang theory seems to me more interesting and profitable.

But, the post you addressed was a reply to someone else who I do not know. My Biblical reference was there in case he was one of those who try to reconcile their ideas with Biblical stuff. I don’t regard the O.T. as a consistent, God-inspired work; rather as a fascinating mix of religion, metaphysics, and bizarre history. .
If the entity called the “soul” has always existed, where did it repose? Remember, the meaning of the word, “create,” is not the watered down version of it we find roaming about today.
“Create” is one of those troublesome English words which takes on different meanings in different contexts. And yep, some definitions are diluted. From your context I cannot tell which one you are referring to.

Personally, I use “create” to mean, the making of something which has not previously been made by the entity doing the making. Since I accept the laws of thermodynamics, I assume that God did not create energy from nothing and then use it to create the universe, but rather that energy has always been around, and that God shaped it, like a potter shapes clay, into the core components of the universe.

Explaining my soul concept is probably not appropriate for the CAF because of the background I’d need to introduce it, but I’m only two chapters from finishing my book. I can offer this: “Where” is not a definable term prior to the construction of the physical universe.

That is not the cop-out answer you might imagine it to be. Imagine that you invite an electrical-engineer friend over to watch the Packers and the Vikings play this Sunday, and during a commercial break, ask him, “Where is the signal that contains this video and audio information?”

The obvious answer to you might be, “At my antenna.” But other people have TV’s at different locations, and they can watch the same game. Does that mean that the signal is everywhere? Your friend would say no, pointing out that the signal attenuates with distance, or as a function of intervening matter, or e/m interference. He might try to explain that the signal exists in phase space. But he cannot explain to you what that means unless you’ve taken a few serious calculus and physics courses.

Your question about where the soul might have reposed is excellent, but the answer does require an explanation in the context of physics. This just is not the place and time for such.
 
L. Ron Hubbard, of Scientology fame, placed the age of souls (thetans) at 95 billion years, give or take. God therefore, pre-dates souls, according to that time line. If Hubbard is correct, God would still have had to create them, would he not?
Reply 2 of 2

Hubbard made some interesting contributions, but I doubt that he knows squat about the age of thetans, souls, or the atoms from which his boogers were formed. So I’m inclined to assume that he is just making that up.

Attributing an age to something does indeed imply its creation. If I thought for a microsecond that Hubbard knew what he was talking about, I’d need to rethink my ideas.

The 95 billion year nonsense is simply a neurolinguistic dodge, the kind of trickery at which Hubbard was a master. That kind of number tricks the unwary mind, which thinks, “Gee. He said 95, a precise number, not like 100 which is more like a guess. So he must know what he’s talking about.” The same non-discriminating minds think that an item being sold for $19.95 is a better bargain than the same item sold for twenty bucks.

Hubbard’s neurolinguistic trickery has distracted you from some important critical thinking.

Suppose he said that thetans are all 2 years old? Or a million years old? Same difference. The point is that by giving them an “age,” he is implicitly ascribing to them a beginning, which to your way of thinking implies creation.

But what is his basis for declaring that they were created? You might want to consider that question, which is the crux of this mini-issue.
Furthermore, finite creatures cannot create other finite creatures. They can be causal, but not creative. Most causes presuppose existing materials out of which a thing is brought about. Creation is the only cause that doesn’t presuppose anything.
The easy reply to this is simply,j “Who says so, and why?” But we might dig a bit deeper.

I’ve proposed that the soul is not a created entity. Therefore by your implicit line of reasoning, if my hypothesis is correct, the soul can indeed create. Even when embedded within a human brain-body system.
Another question: if one’s parents have five children, and four turn out great, but one turns out to be a terrible person, are they responsible for his behavior (after, of course, he became an adult)?
That’s a broad question. To answer it I’ll have to narrow the scope. If I do so incorrectly, of course my reply is irrelevant. So, I’m guessing that you mean genetic responsibility rather than failure to nurture adequately, or failure to teach moral values.

Answer: No! And that “No!” applies just as loudly whether my hypothesis that the soul is not created is correct, or the Church’s belief that God made it, is correct.

Of course the answer is, “yes,” in the context of Darwinist beliefs. Since those beliefs are easily proved to be mathematically and logically absurd, “NO!” prevails.
The answers to these questions are integral to your hypothesis, in my opinion.

God bless,
jd
Your opinion in this respect is right on.
 
But isn’t your ideas in the same category as Hubbards?:confused:
Not even close. And you meant, “aren’t.”

Hubbard found some effective ways to access concealed brain memories, which are incorporated into his “scientology” system, and are effective for some mindwork I do. And he was a marketing genius as well. I know of nothing he has contributed by way of metaphysical insights.
 
Why would God create us if some of us would end up in hell? Even if only one person would end up in hell, wouldn’t that be enough to prevent God from creating humanity?

It seems better for none of us to exist then for some persons to spend an eternity in hell, right?
The traditional answer to this question is that God creates people who go to Hell, because he gets glory from displaying his justice on these souls. And on top of that, he gets glory for showing them mercy, insofar as that those in Hell do not truly experience the pain and loss that they deserve.

God could have created a universe where everyone - angels and man - went to heaven. He could have made us all Mary’s, so to speak. But he gave man a radical gift: freedom and a perfectly innocent nature. On top of that, he gave him these gifts knowing that he would abuse them in the garden, and lose them for himself and all his progeny.

I think too often we have this idea that “God is love,” and by that mean that “everything is alright, and everyone is fine.” But, the stronger the love is, the more the lover hates all that is unlovely in the object of his love. God is love, infinite love, but he abhors sin more than we could ever imagine.
 
According to the Catechism; the cheif punishment of hell is seperation from God.

We are free to choose to be with or without God.

It would be cruel of God to create us and give us free will yet force us to follow him.

Free will allows us to choose who to follow; God’s gift of heaven is open to everyone. Yes; he knew many would reject him; but his gift to us is very valuable…

Think of it like this; why do parent’s have kid’s even though they know the kids will die eventually? It is because this Gift of life is so very precious; it surpasses any suffering, death or rejection.
God created hell though, so it is part of him. Or part of his plan. Those who don’t follow him go to hell. Thats what the bible says. Pretty harsh, aint it?

Ill be the first to admit it would be nice if he gave us physical and scientific proof of his existence rather than an ancient book and faith.
 
God created hell though, so it is part of him. Or part of his plan. Those who don’t follow him go to hell. Thats what the bible says. Pretty harsh, aint it?

Ill be the first to admit it would be nice if he gave us physical and scientific proof of his existence rather than an ancient book and faith.
Blue:

He also gave us “reason.” And, there is no commandment not to use it. 🙂

God bless,
jd
 
Blue:

He also gave us “reason.” And, there is no commandment not to use it. 🙂

God bless,
jd
He gave us a lot of things that can turn into things bigger than us. Like logic, talent… many things.

And we all know where logic, talent and curiosity goes. I mean just look at the technology we’ve created.
 
He gave us a lot of things that can turn into things bigger than us. Like logic, talent… many things.

And we all know where logic, talent and curiosity goes. I mean just look at the technology we’ve created.
Much of it is quite fascinating, isn’t it? And, nuances are coming at us with greater and greater speed. That makes it harder and harder to see the sublime; to have “Faith;” to keep moral; and to revere God. You make some good points, Blue.

God bless,
jd
 
BlueShadow

ll be the first to admit it would be nice if he gave us physical and scientific proof of his existence rather than an ancient book and faith.

I’d be the first to admit it was nice that he provided no scientific evidence against his existence, and an inclination to believe rather than disbelieve. 👍
 
Why would God create us if some of us would end up in hell? Even if only one person would end up in hell, wouldn’t that be enough to prevent God from creating humanity?

It seems better for none of us to exist then for some persons to spend an eternity in hell, right?
Nobody but God REALLY KNOWS that answer to that. We’ll have to ask Him as he’s elevating us to Heaven or tossing us into Hell.*
 
Not even close. And you meant, “aren’t.”

Hubbard found some effective ways to access concealed brain memories, which are incorporated into his “scientology” system, and are effective for some mindwork I do. And he was a marketing genius as well. I know of nothing he has contributed by way of metaphysical insights.
Actually LRH used a Gnostic foundation , Allister Crowley"s Book of the Law and Freud’s methods of Psychotherapy ( and maybe a little P.T.Barnum ) to come up with Scientology.

Ironically the e-meter and NeuroElectric Therapy (NET) are very similar forms of low current electric shock therapy used by mainstream Psychology to treat depression , insomnia , stress , anxiety , and drug addiction .

All of these are not new ideas, just packaged together in a never before seen way . I don’t object to any of them believing what they do, but, as far as being an alternative or a companion to the teachings of the Christian Church it is not . I can see no way for you to be a Christian and a Scientologist . .

.
 
Why would God create us if some of us would end up in hell? Even if only one person would end up in hell, wouldn’t that be enough to prevent God from creating humanity?

It seems better for none of us to exist then for some persons to spend an eternity in hell, right?
I think it must be better for everyone to exist than for none to exist, even if some end up in hell.
 
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