Why Did God Let Man Sin [Akin]

[SalamKhan]

I didn’t talk about sinful, I talked about imperfection. Big difference.

Merely an attempt at damage control here. Before you implied before that unrighteous anger (which is sinful) is imperfection, whilst outright saying righteous anger (which is not sinful) is not imperfection. So my point still stands.

My point is that if someone is created imperfect, and due to that imperfection, one commits sins, how is that different from a programmer writing buggy code, the program crashes and the programmer throws out the computer.

God wrote buggy code. It crashed, then he punishes the people for crashing?

You can get an iMac that works fine, spill some coffee on it, and it could either carry on working fine or become faulty. Since you want to compare humans to computers, this is basically what temptation is.

I can’t be perfect. Only God and the angels and saints are perfect.

If me becoming perfect is not in God’s will, I’ll never be perfect, period, end of sentence. God is limited only by his will.

Too bad. Those sanctified in Jesus Christ are called to be Saints.

 

[grannymh]

Because I am an imperfect, useless piece of dust, and completely unable to understand God and how he works, I can’t understand creating people imperfectly then punishing them when those imperfections inevitably lead to someone falling, the question is not if, but when.

Please take the following with your great sense of humor…like your soggy computer.:clapping:

This post is wonderful, amazing!!! I always wanted to meet one of the creatures mentioned in Genesis 1: 20-25.

Oh dear. Maybe you are pulling my leg. Maybe you are a human trying out a costume for Halloween. Yikes! You must be human because you are using the rational tool to support your position.

 

[BobCatholic]

You can get an iMac that works fine, spill some coffee on it, and it could either carry on working fine or become faulty. Since you want to compare humans to computers, this is basically what temptation is.

And who did the spilling of the coffee? And who made sure the coffee didn’t go into the wrong area (or maybe just allowed it to go in the wrong area)? Not the computer.

Things beyond the control of the computer happen, should the computer be punished?

Too bad. Those sanctified in Jesus Christ are called to be Saints.

But if God doesn’t give the grace to do this, game over. Or are you now Pelagian?
If something is outside of God’s will, game over. No appeal. No hope.

Please take the following with your great sense of humor…like your soggy computer.:clapping:

This post is wonderful, amazing!!! I always wanted to meet one of the creatures mentioned in Genesis 1: 20-25.

Oh dear. Maybe you are pulling my leg. Maybe you are a human trying out a costume for Halloween. Yikes! You must be human because you are using the rational tool to support your position.

I was just trying to imitate St. Faustina who called herself a worthless speck of dust. I figured since she made Jesus happy, maybe I’d get a lottery winning odds chance of making Jesus happy by imitating her.

 

[grannymh]

I was just trying to imitate St. Faustina who called herself a worthless speck of dust. I figured since she made Jesus happy, maybe I’d get a lottery winning odds chance of making Jesus happy by imitating her.

Understood.

Seriously, the valid question is – how are you imitating her actions 24/7?

Maybe, the real questions is – Is one interested in being a member of the Catholic religion?

 

[SalamKhan]

And who did the spilling of the coffee? And who made sure the coffee didn’t go into the wrong area (or maybe just allowed it to go in the wrong area)? Not the computer.

Things beyond the control of the computer happen, should the computer be punished?

And this is why comparing humans and computers is futile, you’ve destroyed your own analogy, as humans have a will of their own. BTW, God also punished the serpent.

But if God doesn’t give the grace to do this, game over. Or are you now Pelagian?
If something is outside of God’s will, game over. No appeal. No hope.

No I’m not. But are you a Calvinist?

 

[BobCatholic]

Understood.

Seriously, the valid question is – how are you imitating her actions 24/7?

Since I’m imperfect, I’m unable to do that without the grace of God. If God gives me the grace, I’m able to do this. If not, game over.

Maybe, the real questions is – Is one interested in being a member of the Catholic religion?

Yes! I just don’t have a personal relationship with God, I only have a corporate one.

And this is why comparing humans and computers is futile, you’ve destroyed your own analogy, as humans have a will of their own. BTW, God also punished the serpent.

Yes, humans do have a will of their own. And if that will is negatively influenced by imperfections that cause it to be less free, why are they punished as if their will is free?

If one is stupid, one’s will, will embrace stupidity.
If one is naive, one will believe anything that someone tells them. Even if it is wrong.
If one is prideful, one will put themselves ahead of others.

Do you believe that imperfections cannot impact the will at any way? If yes, you contradict scripture and the Catholic faith.

And don’t forget: God let the serpent into the garden. He should have blocked that.
It was a contributing factor. Bad CyberSecurity = system hacked.

No I’m not. But are you a Calvinist?

No.

 

[SalamKhan]

Yes, humans do have a will of their own. And if that will is negatively influenced by imperfections that cause it to be less free, why are they punished as if their will is free?

If one is stupid, one’s will, will embrace stupidity.
If one is naive, one will believe anything that someone tells them. Even if it is wrong.
If one is prideful, one will put themselves ahead of others.

Do you believe that imperfections cannot impact the will at any way? If yes, you contradict scripture and the Catholic faith.

More attempt at damage control. We already established that supposed negative human traits are not imperfections, yet you went back to this.

 

[grannymh]

Since I’m imperfect, I’m unable to do that without the grace of God. If God gives me the grace, I’m able to do this. If not, game over.

Yes! I just don’t have a personal relationship with God, I only have a corporate one.

Yes, humans do have a will of their own. And if that will is negatively influenced by imperfections that cause it to be less free, why are they punished as if their will is free?

If one is stupid, one’s will, will embrace stupidity.
If one is naive, one will believe anything that someone tells them. Even if it is wrong.
If one is prideful, one will put themselves ahead of others.

Do you believe that imperfections cannot impact the will at any way? If yes, you contradict scripture and the Catholic faith.

And don’t forget: God let the serpent into the garden. He should have blocked that.
It was a contributing factor. Bad CyberSecurity = system hacked.

In response to post 46.

Bingo!

I remember “corporate” approach from a post many moons ago. Can you give me some information and maybe that will help stir up some long ago memories?

Another thought/question. Are you considering "imperfections " similar to “triple concupiscence” mentioned in CCC 377 and CCC 2514-2516? Because there is small print in my suggestion of CCC paragraphs, please review CCC 20-21 which explains the use of small print.

As far as God letting Satan into the garden–Bad Cyber Security=system hacked.

One needs a more precise modern understanding of the purpose of the particular system. I would also like to know what exactly made the Cyber Security bad. If the Cyber Security was good, would that eliminate intellective free choice? If intellective free choice was eliminated, that would move humans backwards to a position in Genesis 1: 20-25.

Please take your time. I may not be able to respond right away due to some heavy commitments this week.

Links to the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Link to the books in the Bible

usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/index.cfm

 

[BobCatholic]

More attempt at damage control. We already established that supposed negative human traits are not imperfections, yet you went back to this.

If you think that righteous anger is an imperfection (I don’t), then Jesus was not perfect, and there goes the Catholic faith going bye-bye. In addition, you’re sounding like the third servant in Matthew’s Gospel (parable of talents).

Matthew 25:24-26

“But he that had received the one talent, came and said: Lord, I know that thou art a hard man; thou reapest where thou hast not sown, and gatherest where thou hast not strewed.
And being afraid I went and hid thy talent in the earth: behold here thou hast that which is thine.
And his lord answering, said to him: Wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sow not, and gather where I have not strewed:”

Sounds like a bunch of negative human traits were listed. Are you going there?

 

[BobCatholic]

I remember “corporate” approach from a post many moons ago. Can you give me some information and maybe that will help stir up some long ago memories?

I don’t understand what you’re asking here. What information are you looking for?

Another thought/question. Are you considering "imperfections " similar to “triple concupiscence” mentioned in CCC 377

Concupiscence, plain and simple, is the imperfection created by original sin.

If Adam & Eve were like they were described in CCC377, they must be ridiculously stupid to have done the sin. Or ridiculously prideful. Or ridiculously naive. Those are bugs in the programming (imperfections) that caused the big crash.

As far as God letting Satan into the garden–Bad Cyber Security=system hacked.

One needs a more precise modern understanding of the purpose of the particular system.

No. First, when you’re developing software, you make requirements.

One of the requirements of the Garden of Eden is no sin allowed. No evil allowed.

The serpent was evil and sinful. And don’t tell me God did not know that.

If you had an elderly parent, would you allow scammers and fraudsters to visit them? No? You’re eliminating their free choice to be scammed.

Part of love is protecting the ones you love from evil. Did God love Adam & Eve enough to protect them from evil?

I would also like to know what exactly made the Cyber Security bad.

The serpent got in, when he was not supposed to have gotten in. Violates the requirements.

If the Cyber Security was good, would that eliminate intellective free choice?

If a bridge is built well, with good guardrails, would that eliminate the free choice to drive off the bridge into the ravine below? What if the bridge had no guardrails? And with six tons of huge potholes which cause cars to go out of control? Does that then negatively impact the ability of drivers to drive safely?

 

[grannymh]

One of the requirements of the Garden of Eden is no sin allowed. No evil allowed.

May I suggest that you immediately read Genesis 2: 15-17 and you will find that big sin/evil is allowed in the Garden of Eden.

I am the one who is very interested in the Corporate approach.
I will wait for your information.

 

[SalamKhan]

If you think that righteous anger is an imperfection (I don’t), then Jesus was not perfect, and there goes the Catholic faith going bye-bye. In addition, you’re sounding like the third servant in Matthew’s Gospel (parable of talents).

Matthew 25:24-26

“But he that had received the one talent, came and said: Lord, I know that thou art a hard man; thou reapest where thou hast not sown, and gatherest where thou hast not strewed.
And being afraid I went and hid thy talent in the earth: behold here thou hast that which is thine.
And his lord answering, said to him: Wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sow not, and gather where I have not strewed:”

Sounds like a bunch of negative human traits were listed. Are you going there?

We’ve been through this already. You might want to go back and check. Unless all my points just fly right over you.

 

[BobCatholic]

May I suggest that you immediately read Genesis 2: 15-17 and you will find that big sin/evil is allowed in the Garden of Eden.

False.

Evil and sin are not allowed in the Garden of Eden. Otherwise, Adam & Eve would never been kicked out.

Romans 5:12 is a good verse to read. Before the fall, there was no sin or evil in the Garden because it was not allowed.

I am the one who is very interested in the Corporate approach.
I will wait for your information.

I don’t know what you mean by “corporate approach”

If you’re talking about the fact that I cannot have a personal relationship with God and have to settle for the corporate relationship…I tried many things to get close to God, to get to know him so I can love him. But it all failed. God rejected every attempt. So I’m just going to settle to being part of the corpus (body of Christ) and just have a corporate relationship with God. I can’t expect anything more while in this valley of tears.

 

[BobCatholic]

We’ve been through this already. You might want to go back and check. Unless all my points just fly right over you.

Then I don’t understand what your point is.

You appear to say that an imperfection and sin is the same thing. I disagree.

An imperfection is a bug in the programming, making it easier to sin. It is not a sin.
An imperfection also makes it harder to be holy.

So in other words, if someone wants to go to hell, just exist. To go to heaven, horrific suffering with zero joy or happiness on this planet. Easy to fail, extremely hard to succeed.

 

[grannymh]

Evil and sin are not allowed in the Garden of Eden. Otherwise, Adam & Eve would never been kicked out.

My impression is that a sound interpretation of the first three chapters of Genesis is missing.

Romans 5:12 is a good verse to read. Before the fall, there was no sin or evil in the Garden because it was not allowed.

My impression is that a sound interpretation of Romans 5: 12-21 is missing.

I don’t know what you mean by “corporate approach”

As I said, I saw a reference to the corporate approach many years ago on CAF. I was hoping we could discuss that approach without this sad back and forth about the Garden of Eden.

If you’re talking about the fact that I cannot have a personal relationship with God and have to settle for the corporate relationship…I tried many things to get close to God, to get to know him so I can love him. But it all failed. God rejected every attempt. So I’m just going to settle to being part of the corpus (body of Christ) and just have a corporate relationship with God. I can’t expect anything more while in this valley of tears.

I am very sorry that you feel rejected by God. I had the thought that maybe by talking about the corporate approach we could slip into the personal relationship.

Sometimes listening intently to the prayers spoken by the priest during the Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass can give a person a new insight. My instinct is that the Good Shepherd is looking for you. However, I do not think talking about my instincts is proper on a public message board.

 

[BobCatholic]

My impression is that a sound interpretation of the first three chapters of Genesis is missing.

So I’m wrong when I said that sin and evil were not allowed in the Garden of Eden? If so, why did Adam and Eve get kicked out? And why the snake got punished too? If sin and evil were permitted in the garden of eden, you’re saying God acted unjustly by punishing the whole lot of them.

As I said, I saw a reference to the corporate approach many years ago on CAF. I was hoping we could discuss that approach without this sad back and forth about the Garden of Eden.

Not sure why you want to talk about “the corporate approach” which I don’t know what you’re meaning yet.

I struggle with why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam & Eve and their offspring. I just can’t understand it.

I am very sorry that you feel rejected by God. I had the thought that maybe by talking about the corporate approach we could slip into the personal relationship.

I’d love to know more.

Sometimes listening intently to the prayers spoken by the priest during the Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass can give a person a new insight. My instinct is that the Good Shepherd is looking for you. However, I do not think talking about my instincts is proper on a public message board.

Well, you’re welcome to PM me and we can continue this discussion there.

 

[grannymh]

So I’m wrong when I said that sin and evil were not allowed in the Garden of Eden? If so, why did Adam and Eve get kicked out? And why the snake got punished too? If sin and evil were permitted in the garden of eden, you’re saying God acted unjustly by punishing the whole lot of them.

You are not exactly wrong.

What I think is happening is that you are doing something like what I do when I first read a book. I open the book and read what is in the middle and then I go back to the beginning. Currently, I have a book on order which I will probably start at the front because I have read some interesting reviews. On the other hand, I may first find the sections that were referred.

The point is that it really does not matter how one approaches a book or the first three chapters of Genesis as long as one eventually puts its elements in proper order.

A lot of Genesis readers go straight to the fascinating snake in the grass. This snake appears to have lots of power especially when it comes to plopping sin and evil into a lovely garden. Then the head gardener (God) appears with thunder and lightening and throws everyone out. I made up the thunder and lightening part because the part where God looks for Adam (Genesis 3: 9-10) is exciting like a major rain storm. Unfortunately, many readers get somewhat stuck in chapter 3 and then claim that God is unjust or at the least not capable of keeping the snake out. This is not the whole story.

The observant author of the first three chapters of Genesis puts the existence of God first. (Genesis 1: 1) What follows is that God sees creation as good. (Genesis 1: 25) Why? because God the Creator is good.

At this point, we need to turn to the Catholic teachings about angels. (CCC 391-395) Practically speaking, it is difficult to describe angels in material words. Thus, the author pictured Satan as a snake. That is what is meant by “figurative language.” If a reader is curious, I suggest reading CCC 374-379 and CCC 386-387. If a reader is really, really curious, I suggest reading CCC 355-421). This is not a page-turner.

Once a reader accepts the goodness of God, even if that is hard to do, one is ready to explore how Genesis 1: 27 united both the material and spiritual worlds into one amazing creature known as man, that is, Adam who is capable of a serious love relationship with his Creator. (CCC 1730-1732) God’s love for the human Adam is illustrated in Genesis 2: 8-15. It does not matter if one considers this part figurative. Either figurative or literal interpretations demonstrate God’s love for Adam and subsequently all humankind. Genesis 3: 8 refers to the Lord God moving about in the garden at the breezy time of the day. When I consider that a Pure Spirit Creator is a tad difficult to describe in human’s material language, I think about the fact that God can interact with His human creatures.

I am going to take a break here and let readers point to Genesis 3: 15 as God’s ultimate love.(CCC 410-411)

Also there is now real thunder and lightening at my window.

Links to the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

 

[BobCatholic]

Adam who is capable of a serious love relationship with his Creator. (CCC 1730-1732) God’s love for the human Adam is illustrated in Genesis 2: 8-15.

Then here’s my point.

Why on earth, would Adam, who has a personal relationship, a loving relationship with God, do something that would be a huge sin and offend God so much? This makes no sense.

For crying out loud, they got to live in paradise, and only had one rule. ONE SIMPLE RULE.

I say both were created imperfect and thus fell because of the imperfections.

Were they complete blithering idiots that they’d do something stupid? Were they naive who believe anything anyone tells them? Perhaps it was temporary insanity? Were they prideful? Maybe the snake was 50 feet tall and intimidating so fear was their imperfection?

God writes buggy software. It crashes and God throws the computer out of the room.
I don’t understand why.

I also don’t understand why we are temporally held responsible for the sin of Adam & eve and their progeny.

 

[cfauster]

Then here’s my point.

Why on earth, would Adam, who has a personal relationship, a loving relationship with God, do something that would be a huge sin and offend God so much? This makes no sense.

For crying out loud, they got to live in paradise, and only had one rule. ONE SIMPLE RULE.

I say both were created imperfect and thus fell because of the imperfections.

Were they complete blithering idiots that they’d do something stupid? Were they naive who believe anything anyone tells them? Perhaps it was temporary insanity? Were they prideful? Maybe the snake was 50 feet tall and intimidating so fear was their imperfection?

God writes buggy software. It crashes and God throws the computer out of the room.
I don’t understand why.

I also don’t understand why we are temporally held responsible for the sin of Adam & eve and their progeny.

I wonder if, despite God being perfectly good, and despite God’s creation being good, God’s creation might have been - in the beginning - not perfectly good, “just” good.

If so, and if that lack of perfection applied even to Adam and Eve, then perhaps it’s not completely surprising that they could, and in fact did, make a big mistake.

If that mistake had consequences, perhaps quite natural consequences (that is, not exclusively judicial penalties “arbitrarily” imposed by God but rather inevitable consequences resulting from the mistake), including effects on subsequent generations, then maybe we have a picture of God as a parent, full of love and hope and promise for God’s children, a parent who would have wished for God’s children to have not gone astray, but whose children did in fact go astray.

God never loses God’s love for God’s children, and continues to provide hope and promise for reconciliation and never-ending companionship with God. But, the road back is long, difficult, narrow, etc. Again, I envision such precariousness and difficulty as not something God arbitrarily arranges just to make it hard. Nonetheless, it is. Perhaps the main comfort, at least to me personally, is that God in Jesus of Nazareth walked with a few of God’s lost children in Palestine two millennia ago, guided them and showed them (actually created) the road to take back, and even now continues to accompany us on our way.

 

[BobCatholic]

I wonder if, despite God being perfectly good, and despite God’s creation being good, God’s creation might have been - in the beginning - not perfectly good, “just” good.

If so, and if that lack of perfection applied even to Adam and Eve, then perhaps it’s not completely surprising that they could, and in fact did, make a big mistake.

Precisely my point! I never said they were evil. They were created good. They had preternatural gifts. Despite this, they were imperfect and it was easy for them to make a big mistake.

If that mistake had consequences, perhaps quite natural consequences (that is, not exclusively judicial penalties “arbitrarily” imposed by God but rather inevitable consequences resulting from the mistake),

I think it was a punishment. God declared the penalties then enforced them.

including effects on subsequent generations, then maybe we have a picture of God as a parent, full of love and hope and promise for God’s children, a parent who would have wished for God’s children to have not gone astray, but whose children did in fact go astray.

I can’t see it that way, I see God as the super strict father who, despite only requiring one rule, made it truly difficult (due to their imperfections) for them to not fail.

It hasn’t got better, right now it is horribly difficult to be holy, but to be sinful, just exist.