Why Did God Let Man Sin [Akin]

  • Thread starter Thread starter Catholic_Opinion
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning?

Look at him scratching his head. We can only imagine his joy upon meeting Eve. There was a lesson for Adam and all mankind to learn. Just as God created Eve and her sin infected Adam and I believe it was his wedding day or prior to the consummation as I mentioned otherwise Cain would have been conceived without original sin, God knew He would Create Immaculate Mary who’s profound virtue would lead mankind to salvation. “I promise salvation to all who embrace it (her Immaculate Heart)” Our Lady of Fatima June 13, 1917, to Lucia.

Also, they got expelled from the garden because God didn’t want them eating from the Tree of Life anymore.
 
while it is foolish to speculate on why Perfect Being does what it does, i would remind everyone that God looked at His creation and it was good.

so, playing the fool, i speculate that God created mankind knowing what would follow, i.e. sin, because He loved each and everyone of us so much that He wanted us to spend our immortal lives with Him for all eternity.

a better question might be, how could we be who we are if God had chosen not to create us because of our sins?

personally, i would rather be a sinner than to never have been created. i am a sinner and i would not be who i am if i were not a sinner.
 
http://jimmyakin.com/wp-content/uploads/adam_and_eve-300x225.jpg
Today something leapt out that deals with the problem of evil, even though it wasn’t in the section on the problem of evil. It deals with the question of why God allowed original sin to take place.



The answers provided by Leo the Great, Aquinas, Paul, and the Exsultet all converge on the idea that God allowed man to fall into sin because he knew he could bring about a greater good by doing so.

This does not necessarily mean a greater good for every individual (e.g., people who commit mortal sin and decide to stay there may not end up with a greater benefit in the long run, although this is itself arguable), but it does mean that there will be greater net good in general.
This is a difficult point for me. I really can’t see your argument based on individuals working.
The reason Aristotle argued to the “one-ness” of God, is the fact that there can be no division in God or he would be destroyed. AKA. God IS Good. (cf: Jesus’ words: A house divided will fall. )

My thesis/perspective is this:
Man is finite and not God. God can not be created, therefore when God created anything God HAD to make him less than God. If man were equal to God, he would necessarily BE God. The trinity can not make itself, it is intrinsically unmade. But anything less than God makes sin possible. Therefore, the only way creation can be Good is for it to be in UNION with God. Creation can not be created as divided against itself or it is intrinsically evil.

Qualitatively: The greatest good is that all creation is union with God. Quantitatively: The more creation there is, the more Good there is in creation.

**The greatest good possible (for creation) is that it be fertile, and in perfect (maximum) union with God.
**

(Rhetorical version of my thesis: ) 🙂
What good is there that can possibly exceed union with God who is all Good?
Are we arguing that (somehow) there a greater good if 1 person is in hell, and 99 united with God? Is it somehow NOT greater if 100 are united to God?
Would man not have been fertile, would good men not have multiplied if there was not sin?

The scriptures say it this way: If you who are evil know how to give your children God, how much more will your Father in heaven? (Spelling Pun was intended)

That’s why I have a very hard time with the saints answer to the problem of evil.
Sin is a lack of union. Sin is something being deprived of good. Sin is a failure of good to appear when needed.

There are sins that exist (suffering/evil) that are brought about by ignorance of the future. ( I mean sins, not culpability. Accidents cause great evils.) But, only God knows the future. Even angels do not know the future as if it were the present. The Angels look forward to the revealing of what man will become. In story form, the devil’s accusations of Job shows that Satan does not know the future; for if the Devil saw how he would loose the bet over Job, there would be no point in accusing Job. The devil would be wasting his “time”. Hence, I don’t really accept Aquinas’ view that Angels are “outside” of time. Eg: The devil knows “his time is short.” (Revelation 12:12)

Now, rewind to the story of creation. Adam had the friendship of God. This shallow union is not as great a good as being part of the trinity. But, they are friends. Adam’s connection to God is sufficient for Adam to be able to avoid sins caused by not knowing the future. Adam merely needs to call out to God when his ignorance leads to danger.

God had to give Adam knowledge of the future, at least in a conditional sense: If you eat … you will die. That’s why Adam can be good; for he knows the future sufficiently to avoid evil.

All the saints mentioned see the greater good being the incarnation. I agree, for the reason:
The incarnation unites man more fully to the trinity. The Holy Spirit will lead us and harmonize the future for us. Therefore, more good exists in the world. We can know the parts of the future necessary for the greatest harmony. We can be infused with the knowledge of what we need to do, when.

But, this was all possible from the beginning UNLESS sin was necessary to make the union possible. I mean: God could not (possibly) cut himself, or empty himself, and take on flesh until sin existed.

The incarnation must have been possible even if Adam did not sin, but perhaps dying on the cross would not have been possible. This is a mystery to me. That seems to imply that the body of Man could not be united to God without damage to itself (a necessary evil.)

That’s why I think that evil is a consequence of God making us persons who are less than himself. He could not create beings which were both free like himself and not himself, without making them capable of sinning.
 
http://jimmyakin.com/wp-content/uploads/adam_and_eve-300x225.jpgI’ve read the Catechism before, but that doesn’t stop things from leaping out at me when I’m going through it.

Today something leapt out that deals with the problem of evil, even though it wasn’t in the section on the problem of evil. It deals with the question of why God allowed original sin to take place.

Here’s what it says:

412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, “Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away.”*and St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, “There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exsultet sings, ‘O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’”

The answers provided by Leo the Great, Aquinas, Paul, and the Exsultet all converge on the idea that God allowed man to fall into sin because he knew he could bring about a greater good by doing so.
I believe the section I bolded is a misinterpretation of the quotations you cited.

God did not desire man to sin so he might demonstrate his glorious plan. "Hey look at what a magnanimous guy I am!! saving you low-lifes proves it ! "

Man is created out of God’s love, and is given the freedom to love in return. So in the first place, God’s desire is that man dwells in free and loving union with him forever.

Man has free will and abuses it. God’s permissive will respects this free choice. And while respecting our freedom, he gives us the way back to him. He gives without limit, to the extreme of his own condescension into human flesh. I believe the saints you quoted are observing the reality of what has happened, not divining the creative mind and will of God.

So for us, in retrospect of our sins, yes it is a happy fault that brings us such a redemption. We need it.
But I don’t believe the Church has ever said that this was God’s active will for us.
osv.com/OSVNewsweekly/ByIssue/Article/TabId/735/ArtMID/13636/ArticleID/2585/Discerning-Gods-positive-and-permissive-will.aspx
 
I believe the section I bolded is a misinterpretation of the quotations you cited.

God did not desire man to sin so he might demonstrate his glorious plan. "Hey look at what a magnanimous guy I am!! saving you low-lifes proves it ! "

Man is created out of God’s love, and is given the freedom to love in return. So in the first place, God’s desire is that man dwells in free and loving union with him forever.

Man has free will and abuses it. God’s permissive will respects this free choice. And while respecting our freedom, he gives us the way back to him. He gives without limit, to the extreme of his own condescension into human flesh. I believe the saints you quoted are observing the reality of what has happened, not divining the creative mind and will of God.

So for us, in retrospect of our sins, yes it is a happy fault that brings us such a redemption. We need it.
But I don’t believe the Church has ever said that this was God’s active will for us.
osv.com/OSVNewsweekly/ByIssue/Article/TabId/735/ArtMID/13636/ArticleID/2585/Discerning-Gods-positive-and-permissive-will.aspx
👍

Thank you.

Unfortunately, there are very few Catholics who understand the protocol of the visible Catholic Church on earth regarding the utterances of Saints, Early Church Fathers, Theologians, Cardinals, Apostles and Poets.

In brief – Not every word of the Saints, Early Church Fathers, Theologians, Cardinals, Apostles, and Poets automatically become Catholic doctrines. A simple source for tracking some, not all, contributions to the proper formation of Catholic doctrines (protocol) can be found in the Catechism of The Catholic Church Second Edition, Index of Citations, Pages 689-752.
 
I believe the section I bolded is a misinterpretation of the quotations you cited.

God did not desire man to sin so he might demonstrate his glorious plan. "Hey look at what a magnanimous guy I am!! saving you low-lifes proves it ! "

Man is created out of God’s love, and is given the freedom to love in return. So in the first place, God’s desire is that man dwells in free and loving union with him forever.

Man has free will and abuses it. God’s permissive will respects this free choice. And while respecting our freedom, he gives us the way back to him. He gives without limit, to the extreme of his own condescension into human flesh. I believe the saints you quoted are observing the reality of what has happened, not divining the creative mind and will of God.

So for us, in retrospect of our sins, yes it is a happy fault that brings us such a redemption. We need it.
But I don’t believe the Church has ever said that this was God’s active will for us.
osv.com/OSVNewsweekly/ByIssue/Article/TabId/735/ArtMID/13636/ArticleID/2585/Discerning-Gods-positive-and-permissive-will.aspx
I don’t think that’s what CO was getting at though. Consider this question: For what other reason would God have* allowed *evil *unless *He determined to bring an even greater good out of it?
 
I don’t think that’s what CO was getting at though. Consider this question: For what other reason would God have* allowed *evil *unless *He determined to bring an even greater good out of it?
The reason can be that love’s nature is to allow freedom. Love exposes the lover to possible rejection. The motivation of love is the loving relationship itself, not to prove how good the lover is when the beloved fails.

It seems to me that what you are saying is God’s response to our rejection is conditioned by that rejection by “unless”. But God is by nature the greater good Himself without that “unless”.

Isn’t his love is constant and eternal? We could have remained in paradise, and no evil is necessary for God to bring greater good. (we didn’t obviously)
 
The reason can be that love’s nature is to allow freedom. Love exposes the lover to possible rejection. The motivation of love is the loving relationship itself, not to prove how good the lover is when the beloved fails.

It seems to me that what you are saying is God’s response to our rejection is conditioned by that rejection by “unless”. But God is by nature the greater good Himself without that “unless”.

Isn’t his love is constant and eternal? We could have remained in paradise, and no evil is necessary for God to bring greater good. (we didn’t obviously)
But that doesn’t answer the question of why He would bother to create, if evil is a result. Being all-good, and never the author of evil, God could presumably only allow evil for a purpose, planning to use the Fall according to His wisdom. He certainly wouldn’t have been surprised by it. 🙂 In any case the “greater good” theory was conceived to attempt to resolve the problem of evil and God’s relationship to it.
 
But that doesn’t answer the question of why He would bother to create, if evil is a result.
God doesn’t “bother” to create, as if it were a decision based on weighing this consequence and that benefit. “bothering” seems to imply that he created a little grudgingly.

Isn’t it simply the nature of Love to create? God is a Trinitarian outpouring. God is eternally fertile “before” his creation comes forth. We are created because God loves. He doesn’t count the cost like you and I would.
Being all-good, and never the author of evil, God could presumably only allow evil for a purpose, planning to use the Fall according to His wisdom.
But we can’t say that we were created to fall. God did not create us for the purpose of rejecting him.
He certainly wouldn’t have been surprised by it. 🙂 In any case the “greater good” theory was conceived to attempt to resolve the problem of evil and God’s relationship to it.
Is a difficult matter to comprehend for sure.
Part of the problem is time. We want know what God knew and when he knew it, and how it affected him, when after all God is outside time and he cannot be caused to do anything.
 
God doesn’t “bother” to create, as if it were a decision based on weighing this consequence and that benefit. “bothering” seems to imply that he created a little grudgingly.
Whether or not to “bother” is an honest question looking at it from a human perspective. The point is that He must’ve had a plan before creation, a plan which, it seems, involves the Church’s teaching that He made His world in a “state of journeying to perfection”, even as He could always have made an even better world…
Isn’t it simply the nature of Love to create? God is a Trinitarian outpouring. God is eternally fertile “before” his creation comes forth. We are created because God loves. He doesn’t count the cost like you and I would.
I believe, with all the pain and suffering that ensued as a result of the Fall, He would indeed have counted the costs, and obviously deemed it worthwhile nonetheless.
But we can’t say that we were created to fall. God did not create us for the purpose of rejecting him.
Agreed, that would be Calvinism.
 
From Jimmy Akin

Today something leapt out that deals with the problem of evil, even though it wasn’t in the section on the problem of evil. It deals with the question of why God allowed original sin to take place.

Here’s what it says:
412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning?

Response to Jimmy Akin

When we ponder the valid question “But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning?’ (CCC 412) — we need to explore the major Catechism section CCC 355-421 including the paragraph 396 cross-reference CCC 1730 and the first three chapters of Genesis. The proposal “that God allowed man to fall into sin because he knew he could bring about a greater good by doing so.” is indicated in CCC 410, the Protoevangelium, Genesis 3:15, footnote 304.

The real question is — What is basic human nature as designed by God? Genesis 1: 27 is a beginning. CCC 356 is key because it gives the purpose of Genesis 1: 27. CCC 1730-1732 explains the ultimate difference between man and the creatures in Genesis 1: 20-25.
CCC 1730 “man a rational being” is the foundational answer as to why God did not prevent the first man from sinning.

Man being a "rational being” is the answer as to why God did not prevent the first man from sinning. (CCC 1730-1732)

When we look at Original Sin, then Adam’s nature has to be considered. For example. What is it about Adam which God took into consideration when evil is presented by Satan in Genesis, chapter 3? We should not avoid CCC 396.

It is the external presence of Satan who disguised the evil of Original Sin. Genesis 3: 1-7.

It is God who gave humans the “dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions.” (CCC 1730) “By free will one shapes one’s own life.” (CCC 1731)

When one says that God allowed evil, then it is important to know where that evil comes from. Therefore, one needs to study “The Fall of the Angels” CCC 391-395.
The following sentence cannot be lightly read. Notice the word “works” which, in my humble opinion, is a better description.

CCC 395 It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but “we know that in everything God works for good with those who love Him.”
 
I don’t think that’s what CO was getting at though. Consider this question: For what other reason would God have* allowed *evil *unless *He determined to bring an even greater good out of it?
Because he had no choice. It was not possible to create US without allowing evil.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14210661&postcount=64

1.) We are less than God, therefore we are not God.
2.) Only God is Good, because only God knows everything and can always choose Good.
3.) Any finite creature can not know the future (not omniscient.)
4.) Therefore all finite creatures are potentially subject to evil. (unavoidable if they are alone.)

Man is created in God’s image. God is able to choose. Therefore, man must be able to choose. God can choose Good without intending evil, therefore man can choose Good without intending evil. But… for creation to be all good it must have access (not ownership) to omniscience. Therefore it must have access to God.

That’s what friendship, sonship, etc. are all about. Walking with God.
 
Because he had no choice. It was not possible to create US without allowing evil.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14210661&postcount=64

1.) We are less than God, therefore we are not God.
2.) Only God is Good, because only God knows everything and can always choose Good.
3.) Any finite creature can not know the future (not omniscient.)
4.) Therefore all finite creatures are potentially subject to evil. (unavoidable if they are alone.)

Man is created in God’s image. God is able to choose. Therefore, man must be able to choose. God can choose Good without intending evil, therefore man can choose Good without intending evil. But… for creation to be all good it must have access (not ownership) to omniscience. Therefore it must have access to God.

That’s what friendship, sonship, etc. are all about. Walking with God.
I understand. That doesn’t answer the “problem/mystery of evil” question though. Is it worth it to create beings with free will, knowing that evil would result, in the case of this world? Obviously God deemed it to be worthwhile. This leads to the “greater good” idea-that God wouldn’t allow evil unless He can ultimately bring something better out of it.

It’s simply an ethical question. If we could foreknow that the course of our actions would result in evil, would it be ethical for us to pursue that course anyway?
 
I understand. That doesn’t answer the “problem/mystery of evil” question though. Is it worth it to create beings with free will, knowing that evil would result, in the case of this world? Obviously God deemed it to be worthwhile. This leads to the “greater good” idea-that God wouldn’t allow evil unless He can ultimately bring something better out of it.

It’s simply an ethical question. If we could foreknow that the course of our actions would result in evil, would it be ethical for us to pursue that course anyway?
Time out.
Can you apply ethical questions to God?
 
I understand. That doesn’t answer the “problem/mystery of evil” question though. Is it worth it to create beings with free will, knowing that evil would result, in the case of this world? Obviously God deemed it to be worthwhile. This leads to the “greater good” idea-that God wouldn’t allow evil unless He can ultimately bring something better out of it.

It’s simply an ethical question. If we could foreknow that the course of our actions would result in evil, would it be ethical for us to pursue that course anyway?
Yes. It would.
That is exactly the principle of double effect. That’s also why I’ll bring up an analogy.

Consider a child implanted in a woman’s fallopian tube.
Man (in the ethical image of God) can remove the whole fallopian tube, knowing that the child will die. The removal is an ethical procedure. Man does not intend to kill the child. Man only needs to strictly intend to save the woman’s life. The procedure does not require us to desire or try to kill the child in any way.

That act is very different from an abortion, where the doctor intends (actively) to kill the child. An act of removing a fallopian tube, and then purposely crushing it while a live infant/embryo in the tube is unethical and immoral. The second part is manslaughter or murder.

The principle of double effect has boundaries.
The principle of double effect exists because there is no other way available (at the time, or in all eternity) for another outcome.

Let me reverse the question on you for a moment:

Given an a-priori axiom: God can not create (non omniscient) creatures without the potential for evil.

Which has more good, quantitatively ?
To create nothing, or to create some things which are good?

Is it not obvious that if there is nothing, nothing good has been created?

Now consider:
Evil is not a “thing”. You can not create “evil.” Evil is the deprivation of “good”.
So, when examining “to create” or “not to create” as the question … I think some good creation is better than no creation. Existence is a greater good than non-existence.

( I don’t mean to exclude that God is infinite Good even if he did not create at all. )

As to the greater “good” that Akin and the saints are talking about, that’s the incarnation.The real question is, why didn’t God do the greater good (the incarnation) from “the beginning.”?

This is what I said is a mystery. (Or at least, that’s what I tried to say, imperfectly.)

In my own mind, the mystery consists of this point: For God to empty himself, he apparently had to deprive himself in some way. In one sense, deprivation an evil / potential evil. Yet God can not actually DO evil, even to himself. So, how can the incarnation come to pass?

IMHO. This has to do with sin being actualized in the world, and this is why the incarnation is a response to sin … rather than something which happened from the beginning.

When God entered into a covenant with Abraham and Moses, he had to make an Oath.
The Scriptures tell us that “God swore by himself” because “He had no one greater to swear by.”

At the moment God entered into an oath, he was saying: “If I fail to keep my word, I am subject to death.” That’s what an oath means.

But God, foreknowing that his oath would fail unless death occurred on the cross, still chose to make the oath; otherwise all of humanity would die and be in the power of death.
(And he “rigged” the game, for the moment he suffered death … his oath was fulfilled, and he was no longer required to die. Hence the resurrection. )

If Man had not sinned, there would have been no need for a promise. There would have been no need for an oath. There would have been no need for a cross. That “could” have been a very great good, quantitatively. But, I am not sure the incarnation could have happened in that scenario. I am not sure it couldn’t, either. This is the mystery to me.

Does God suffer any evil by merely being incarnated?
If that’s the case, then the incarnation could only come to pass because of a crisis.

The saints have never really spoken (with any precision) about the issue I am raising.
 
Time out.
Can you apply ethical questions to God?
But of course we cannot help but ask those questions-God, Himself, designed us with a sense of justice, rooted in *His *justice. And if not *for *that question, the greater good theory would never have even been conceived.
 
  1. God as Creator exists.
  2. God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human.
  3. Every individual human has the good inherent capacity to interact with God as Creator.
  4. Humans are not finite. Humans have a good spiritual rational immortal soul.
Because of Genesis 1: 27 and the above 4 points, humans can have a friendship relationship with God. There can only be one almighty supreme God. Therefore, man, who is a “spiritual creature, can live this friendship only in free submission to God.” (CCC 396)

Because man is a spiritual creature (decomposing anatomy and rational soul in the image of God), “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to Him.” (CCC 1730-1732)

If we say that God let man sin, then we have to say that God let man into heaven.

Sin then is seen as a free rejection of God’s invitation to share, “by knowledge and love , in God’s own life.” (CCC 356) The evil of sin does not come from God’s invitation; rather it is the action of rejection of a friendship relationship. Man’s goodness is the acceptance of choosing God.

Something to think about. It is because humans are in the image of God that we can share “in the divine life of the Trinity.” (Sanctifying Grace, CCC Glossary, page 898) The animal kingdom is not invited to enter heaven. These material beings do not have a choice. Apparently humans, having a good choice, outrank the critters in the beginning of Genesis, chapter 1. Perhaps one can say that God, in His love, gives humans a choice. It is the rejection choice which becomes the sin.

The human person is worthy of profound respect.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top