A
A_Really_Big_Cat
Guest
This really puzzles and confuses me. In Genesis, Adam and Eve say that God told them that they would die if they ate from or even touched the Tree. But they didn’t. Doesn’t this mean God lied to them?
Why did God say that Adam and Eve would die if they touched and ate from the Tree?
- Status
But they did die. Sure it was hundreds of years later, but they most certainly died.
A
A_Really_Big_Cat
Guest
I guess that is technically true, but they seemed to understand it as meaning they would die instantly, and for that matter, why would they have known what death was if it did not exist? Sorry if I’m overthinking this but I’m autistic.
M
Margaret_Ann
Guest
First of all, God cannot lie. Hebrews 6: 16-20:
[16] For men swear by one greater than themselves: and an oath for confirmation is the end of all their controversy. [17] Wherein God, meaning more abundantly to shew to the heirs of the promise the immutability of his counsel, interposed an oath: [18] That by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have the strongest comfort, who have fled for refuge to hold fast the hope set before us. [19] Which we have as an anchor of the soul, sure and firm, and which entereth in even within the veil; [20] Where the forerunner Jesus is entered for us, made a high priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech.
Second, there are two kinds of death: physical (i.e. a dead body) and spiritual (i.e. the soul does not have sanctifying grace but is in the state of original or mortal sin).
As @porthos11 posted, Adam & Eve did die.
However, by committing the first sin they lost sanctifying grace (the Divine Life of God within them) plus all the preternatural gifts God gave them - one of which was freedom from sickness. If they hadn’t disobeyed God, we may not be going through this crisis now.
Since they lost sanctifying grace, the Divine Life of God, therefore they were spiritually dead even though they lived hundreds of years (c.f. Gen. 4). We are too unless we are baptized and remain in the state of sanctifying grace.
Our Lady is the only human person to be without original sin. Jesus is True God as well as True Man so obviously He never had any sin.
[16] For men swear by one greater than themselves: and an oath for confirmation is the end of all their controversy. [17] Wherein God, meaning more abundantly to shew to the heirs of the promise the immutability of his counsel, interposed an oath: [18] That by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have the strongest comfort, who have fled for refuge to hold fast the hope set before us. [19] Which we have as an anchor of the soul, sure and firm, and which entereth in even within the veil; [20] Where the forerunner Jesus is entered for us, made a high priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech.
Second, there are two kinds of death: physical (i.e. a dead body) and spiritual (i.e. the soul does not have sanctifying grace but is in the state of original or mortal sin).
As @porthos11 posted, Adam & Eve did die.
However, by committing the first sin they lost sanctifying grace (the Divine Life of God within them) plus all the preternatural gifts God gave them - one of which was freedom from sickness. If they hadn’t disobeyed God, we may not be going through this crisis now.
Since they lost sanctifying grace, the Divine Life of God, therefore they were spiritually dead even though they lived hundreds of years (c.f. Gen. 4). We are too unless we are baptized and remain in the state of sanctifying grace.
Our Lady is the only human person to be without original sin. Jesus is True God as well as True Man so obviously He never had any sin.
Last edited:
A
adamhovey1988
Guest
Me too! But they DID die, even if they lived for a long time. I have an overly literal brain too, so I sympathise. Go read the text in its entirety. God bless, and don’t be afraid to ask questions.
Last edited:
1
1Lord1Faith
Guest
Some theologians think that God did explain death to A & E. Since God knew that they didn’t know anything about death, He would have to explain it to them in terms they would understand. So, God explained that death was when you went far far away to live on a farm where there was plenty of room to run and frolic. Of course there would be toiling of the ground and childbirth as well, but they didn’t need to know everything all at once just the basic idea.
Last edited:
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
I realize this is far out, but I have sometimes wondered whether Paradise was any different from the world we live in now, the difference being our present non-acceptance and Adam and Eve’s total acceptance of Providence.
We are assured by God that, indeed, we will not die; not totally. But materially we will. Since we now have arrogated to ourselves the “knowledge” of good and evil, we see earthly death as “evil” whereas perhaps Adam and Eve thought of it as just part of Providence. In other words, we decide for ourselves that it’s “evil” and try to avoid it.
We are assured by God that, indeed, we will not die; not totally. But materially we will. Since we now have arrogated to ourselves the “knowledge” of good and evil, we see earthly death as “evil” whereas perhaps Adam and Eve thought of it as just part of Providence. In other words, we decide for ourselves that it’s “evil” and try to avoid it.
M
mdgspencer
Guest
How do you know they thought they would die immediately?
J
john14v27
Guest
Hi A_Really_Big_Cat 
God was speaking of spiritual death. The moment they disobeyed is the moment they died and therefore became disconnected/separated from God because of sin. If you read Romans 5 and specifically verses 12 and 19, we’re told that sin entered the world through Adam so all are born sinners, spiritually dead, and disconnected from God. This is why mankind is physically born not knowing God. This is also why we’re told that we need to be spiritually born. We’ve all been physically born but we need to be made spiritually alive in Christ. This is what we call the second birth, according to the scriptures.
Ephesians 2:1: " And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins"
Romans 5:1-17 (too long to post here)
2 Cor 5:17-19: " Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation."
John 3:5-7: "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ (flesh birth and spirit birth mentioned here. 2 births must take place)
As for physical death… yes, they like the rest of us would experience sickness, pains, and eventual physical death. The physical death didn’t happen to them immediately but they did eventually physically die. The moment they ate the fruit their bodies would’ve begun to age.
God was speaking of spiritual death. The moment they disobeyed is the moment they died and therefore became disconnected/separated from God because of sin. If you read Romans 5 and specifically verses 12 and 19, we’re told that sin entered the world through Adam so all are born sinners, spiritually dead, and disconnected from God. This is why mankind is physically born not knowing God. This is also why we’re told that we need to be spiritually born. We’ve all been physically born but we need to be made spiritually alive in Christ. This is what we call the second birth, according to the scriptures.
Ephesians 2:1: " And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins"
Romans 5:1-17 (too long to post here)
2 Cor 5:17-19: " Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation."
John 3:5-7: "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ (flesh birth and spirit birth mentioned here. 2 births must take place)
As for physical death… yes, they like the rest of us would experience sickness, pains, and eventual physical death. The physical death didn’t happen to them immediately but they did eventually physically die. The moment they ate the fruit their bodies would’ve begun to age.
G
Gorgias
Guest
No they didn’t. The devil tried to convince them that this was the case, though!
The Church tells us that this story isn’t a historical story (like something you’d see on the news), but that it’s a story that teaches us truth. So, God is telling you this story in a way that He knows you would understand. You and I know what death is, and so, this story is important for us!
Well… remember that the Church teaches that Adam and Eve had “infused knowledge”. So, to think that they knew what death was, isn’t all that difficult to accept.
S
stpurl
Guest
Actually, there’s been a bit of a mixup here. God did indeed tell tell Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil lest they die. . .BUT it was not God who said, “or even touch it”. The person who said that was Eve, in response to the serpent asking her if God REALLY said they would die if they ate it.
Two schools of thought leap to mind.
A. God really said that about “even touch it” to EVE and presumably only to Eve at the time (since at the beginning of the encounter between Eve and the serpent Adam was not there). Perhaps He said that to Eve knowing she would face the tempter alone and He wanted to make sure she had full knowledge of how serious this was.
B. God did not say ‘or even touch’, but Eve either ‘heard that” (a good example then of how people can ‘add onto’ or distort a message), or Eve wanted to end the conversation with the serpent by making it seem impossible to continue arguing.
Either way, in the actual words in red which GOD said (not from Eve reporting or paraphrasing) there was nothing about ‘not even touching the tree’.
And as others have noted, there was nothing in any of the telling that would have led Adam, Eve, or the serpent for that matter think that eating (or touching) would have led to ‘instant death’.
Two schools of thought leap to mind.
A. God really said that about “even touch it” to EVE and presumably only to Eve at the time (since at the beginning of the encounter between Eve and the serpent Adam was not there). Perhaps He said that to Eve knowing she would face the tempter alone and He wanted to make sure she had full knowledge of how serious this was.
B. God did not say ‘or even touch’, but Eve either ‘heard that” (a good example then of how people can ‘add onto’ or distort a message), or Eve wanted to end the conversation with the serpent by making it seem impossible to continue arguing.
Either way, in the actual words in red which GOD said (not from Eve reporting or paraphrasing) there was nothing about ‘not even touching the tree’.
And as others have noted, there was nothing in any of the telling that would have led Adam, Eve, or the serpent for that matter think that eating (or touching) would have led to ‘instant death’.
Last edited:
F
fhansen
Guest
Nope, we’re “born dead”. And this death has sometimes been referred to as the “death of the soul”. It consists of separation from God as our God, a relationship or communion that man was made for and is lost without, whether he knows it or not. But we exist in a rather pitiful state in this world, this exile, even as we go about the business of life more or less as if we know what we’re doing. But the truth is that we don’t even know where we came from, if anywhere, what we’re here for, if for anything, and where we’re going, if anywhere. We really don’t know much. And this place called earth is really far removed from the home we were created for.
We enter our true home as we become born again, born from above, arisen, etc, which comes about as we begin to know and place our trust/faith in, hope in, and ultimately achieve love for God. That last virtue, love, is the definition of holiness, righteousness, justice for man which is why the greatest commandments are what they are. Anyway, we have far to go, and start with less that we know at first. We’re here to learn just how much Adam gave up, how lacking we are regardless of how many worldly “blessings” we may have. We’re here to come to develop a hunger and thirst for something more, a hunger and thirst for righteousness in a world of injustice and evil, a hunger and thirst for God. And He’s there to fill that hunger. That’s why Jesus came, to reveal that God in the most intimate way we can receive Him while here in this life.
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3
"No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother,
saying, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know Me,
from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD.
For I will forgive their iniquities
and will remember their sins no more.” Jer 31:34, New Covenant prophecy
Last edited:
A
A_Really_Big_Cat
Guest
I think that i got the idea that Eve believed they would suffer “instant death” from the fact that the serpent would logically have exploited that belief, if they had indeed held it. I had remembered the narrative as being that the serpent first convinced Eve that God was lying about touching the tree, then told her that because she had not died instantly, then God must have been lying about dying from eating the fruit as well.
G
gama232
Guest
No one had to consider the serpent’s words. All the trees they had access to except for one.
- Status