Why did God treat Satan as he did?

[mikekle]

I have argued about this with friends of mine alot lately, and we can never come to an agreement. Satan was the most powerful and beautiful angel created by God, he was the morning light, but he had an ego and tried to go against God, and he took 1/3 of the other angels with him, so that implies that third of the angels agreed with Satan and not God, yet what happens when satan does this…He is still allowed whatever supernatural powers he had, still has, he is basically immortal, if not truly, he lives alot longer than anything else created by God, this never changed when he went against God, He was given a kind of domain to rule over, where him and his kind live, so he went against God and now has a ‘kingdom’ of his own. Hopefully you all can see my points, Why did God allow this to happen? why did he not take away all of Satans powers when he went against God?

So, if all this is true, then ANYONE, human or not, goes against God, then they too will have all that Satan was given for themselves? God said many time humans were the most important of all his creations, so if this is true, then even people that go against him in a similar fashion to what satan did, will be treated better than satan was?

I know this sounds crazy, but how strange is it that God would allow a rival to even have any kind of powers, a very long lifespan, allowed to interfere in humans lives, has millions of fallen angels at his command, etc. Seems to me Satan is getting all he wanted, plus if you consider that the bible even says not many people will make it to heaven, that implies that satan will win over the majority of people, that does not say alot about Gods grand plan for mankind in my opinion.

Hearing what Satan did, I would assume God would have just thrown him into hell, just like he does with humans who go against God, dead humans have no abilities or supernatural powers in hell, they do not have legions of followers willing to do their bidding, why is Satan any different?

Going further, if God truly knows and sees all, then he knew when he created man, that a great majority would choose to go against him and not believe in him, so what purpose does it provide to create such a race, knowing the majority will end up suffering for eternity at the hands of his rival and he will have lost the souls of billions of people he created?

 

[jorge_carrillo]

I have argued about this with friends of mine alot lately, and we can never come to an agreement. Satan was the most powerful and beautiful angel created by God, he was the morning light, but he had an ego and tried to go against God, and he took 1/3 of the other angels with him, so that implies that third of the angels agreed with Satan and not God, yet what happens when satan does this…He is still allowed whatever supernatural powers he had, still has, he is basically immortal, if not truly, he lives alot longer than anything else created by God, this never changed when he went against God, He was given a kind of domain to rule over, where him and his kind live, so he went against God and now has a ‘kingdom’ of his own. Hopefully you all can see my points, Why did God allow this to happen? why did he not take away all of Satans powers when he went against God?

Satan and the angels he took with him as all the rest of the angel had been created by God in Freedom. God creates Free Beings, but this freedom has a porpoise, the free Loving of God. Without Freedom there can’t be nor love, neither obedience. You have to differentiate between obedience and conditioned behavior, a Machine is conditioned to do what it was made to do, it has not will of its own, in change Angels an humans do have a will of their own they are not conditioned beings.

The rebellion against God is a measured risk that God took to give us freedom. He has not created us as machines but as beings with free will. Now, the Devil is trying to make as many souls as possible to abuse of their freedom committing acts which are against the will of God, and in that way he want us to share his fortune. Let us remember that he attempted to rise himself to the very height of God, and that is the way that He seduces mankind with the temptation of selfishness, with the temptation of wanting to be gods.

So, if all this is true, then ANYONE, human or not, goes against God, then they too will have all that Satan was given for themselves? God said many time humans were the most important of all his creations, so if this is true, then even people that go against him in a similar fashion to what satan did, will be treated better than satan was?

The Bible says so:

Apocalypse 20, 10 – 15

10 Then the devil, who led them astray, was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet are, and their torture will not come to an end, day or night, for ever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and the One who was sitting on it. In his presence, earth and sky vanished, leaving no trace.
12 I saw the dead, great and small alike, standing in front of his throne while the books lay open. And another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, as their deeds deserved.
13 The sea gave up all the dead who were in it;
14 Death and Hades were emptied of the dead that were in them; and every one was judged as his deeds deserved. Then Death and Hades were hurled into the burning lake. This burning lake is the second death;
15 and anybody whose name could not be found written in the book of life was hurled into the burning lake.

Those who willingly have hated God, who have rejected his salvation, who have shown not to be willing to fight against temptation, those will share the fortune of Satan.

 

[jorge_carrillo]

I know this sounds crazy, but how strange is it that God would allow a rival to even have any kind of powers, a very long lifespan, allowed to interfere in humans lives, has millions of fallen angels at his command, etc. Seems to me Satan is getting all he wanted, plus if you consider that the bible even says not many people will make it to heaven, that implies that satan will win over the majority of people, that does not say alot about Gods grand plan for mankind in my opinion.

Our Lord explained us such Question:

Matthew 13, 1 – 30

24 He put another parable before them, 'The kingdom of Heaven may be compared to aman who sowed good seed in his field.
25 While everybody was asleep his enemy came, sowed darnel all among the wheat, and made off.
26 When the new wheat sprouted and ripened, then the darnel appeared as well.
27 The owner’s labourers went to him and said, “Sir, was it not good seed that you sowed in your field? If so, where does the darnel come from?”
28 He said to them, “Some enemy has done this.” And the labourers said, “Do you want us to go and weed it out?”
29 But he said, “No, because when you weed out the darnel you might pull up the wheat with it.
30 Let them both grow till the harvest; and at harvest time I shall say to the reapers: Firstcollect the darnel and tie it in bundles to be burnt, then gather the wheat into my barn.” ’

Now, imagine that you have a son which hates God and don’t want to believe, and far from searching for the truth he became criminal and he also became atheist. In exchange you live your life to the end of your days praying for the conversion of your son, but you die, then unfortunately he dies too without repenting, You Go to heaven and he goes to hell.

Perhaps if God knowing that he were going to go to hell, He Would have made him die little after his birth. But doig so there would have been the possibility that you or your wife or both would have been the ones who far from understanding the death of your son would eventually grow in hate against God. And you and/or your wife would have been lost. that is what it means to let evil and good people to coexists, because their roots are interconected and destroying evil ones you may also destroy good ones.

Hearing what Satan did, I would assume God would have just thrown him into hell, just like he does with humans who go against God, dead humans have no abilities or supernatural powers in hell, they do not have legions of followers willing to do their bidding, why is Satan any different?

The Problem Is not Satan but freedom, Satan didn’t put the forbidden fruit in the hand of Eve, he didn’t forces us to sin, he just puts the temptation, we commit the sins.

Going further, if God truly knows and sees all, then he knew when he created man, that a great majority would choose to go against him and not believe in him, so what purpose does it provide to create such a race, knowing the majority will end up suffering for eternity at the hands of his rival and he will have lost the souls of billions of people he created?

God is making a family, a family of members who choose to love him, and to be able to choose him it is necessary to be humble and in humbleness ask him for help. Pride and arrogance are opposed to humbleness. To be able to choose something you need the freedom to make a choice.

 

[DelsonJacobs]

While based on your view of the matter your questions seem logical (and I used to wonder some of these things before myself, so I know where you are coming from), your answers might be found in the possibility that you are taking for granted that some of your beliefs about Satan are fact or official Church doctrine. Actually they are a bit off.

Satan was the most powerful and beautiful angel created by God, he was the morning light, but he had an ego and tried to go against God, and he took 1/3 of the other angels with him, so that implies that third of the angels agreed with Satan and not God…[he] has a ‘kingdom’ of his own. … has millions of fallen angels at his command, etc. Seems to me Satan is getting all he wanted… the bible even says not many people will make it to heaven, that implies that satan will win over the majority of people…the majority will end up suffering for eternity at the hands of [Satan].

While he has been traditionally connected with the “Lucifer” of Isaiah 14:12 (it is the Protestant KJV uses this name here), neither the Bible nor Catholic doctrine state that Satan was the most powerful or most beautiful of all the angels. This understanding was developed not by theologians or the Church but came from popular literature, namely Dante Alighieri’s Inferno and John Milton’s Paradise Lost.

The “third” that the “dragon” of Revelation hurls down is not a literal count as the vision you are referring to is symbolic (the 1/3 is said to be made of “stars” and the Devil is described as a hydra-like dragon, so none of this is literal–Revelation 12). There are no official counts of how many demons have joined Satan. It may be far less than a million, but no one knows. It could be a much smaller group than you expect.

Satan did not get what he wanted at all. Jesus destroyed all the works of Satan at the cross.–1 John 3:8; compare Jesus’ words of Satan’s defeat at Luke 10:18.

And Scripture does not say or imply that the majority of people will end up suffering at the hands for all eternity. While it may be a large number, we cannot say one way or another. The Church itself does not state that any human is currently assuredly in hell.

Satan has been defeated and he and his demons know this. James 2:19 states that they shudder at the thought of what is to come, so the devil did not get what he wanted. Instead he got what he deserved, and that is how God treated him. Do the crime, do the time.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

One thing that screams out to me about Lucifer{-}Satan is that as magnificent as he was, pride overtook his intellect. Even I know that any attempt at rebelling against my creator/maker is a no-brainer.

The ‘angelic rebellion’ when it came must have been the quickest and most one-sided conflict EVER! Lucifer’s plunge from angelic magnificence to Satanic ugliness must have been truly epic!

 

[anEvilAtheist]

mikekle, I’ve never been able to find a satisfactory answer to this question, and I think I would struggle with it a lot if I was Catholic. I have thoughts on some of the responses you received and if you’re interested in a non-Catholic perspective, please read on. Regardless, I hope you have a wonderful week!

Satan and the angels he took with him as all the rest of the angel had been created by God in Freedom. God creates Free Beings, but this freedom has a porpoise, the free Loving of God. Without Freedom there can’t be nor love, neither obedience. You have to differentiate between obedience and conditioned behavior, a Machine is conditioned to do what it was made to do, it has not will of its own, in change Angels an humans do have a will of their own they are not conditioned beings.

The rebellion against God is a measured risk that God took to give us freedom. He has not created us as machines but as beings with free will. Now, the Devil is trying to make as many souls as possible to abuse of their freedom committing acts which are against the will of God, and in that way he want us to share his fortune. Let us remember that he attempted to rise himself to the very height of God, and that is the way that He seduces mankind with the temptation of selfishness, with the temptation of wanting to be gods.

This seems like the most common reason people give. My first problem with this is that if God is all knowing, he knows what every being he creates will do if he creates them. When creating only a finite number of a practically infinite number of possible beings, we would expect an infinitely good God to only create beings that will on balance make the world better rather than pull the world in the direction of evil. This would not require interfering with anyone’s free will.

But my second problem is with the concept of free will many people have. I don’t think most people have carefully thought through what they mean when they speak of free will. I think free will is the freedom to try to do the things you want to do. I can exercise my free will by attempting to commit a crime, but if someone stops me from committing it, that doesn’t mean that I no longer have free will. The world places limits on our ability to get what we want, but I don’t think this makes us unfree. Freedom does not require the ability to vaporize Mars using only your mind. Just like thieves have free will even though security guards may stop them from harming others, Satan could have free will even if God intervened to prevent him from harming others.

Now, imagine that you have a son which hates God and don’t want to believe, and far from searching for the truth he became criminal and he also became atheist. In exchange you live your life to the end of your days praying for the conversion of your son, but you die, then unfortunately he dies too without repenting, You Go to heaven and he goes to hell.

Perhaps if God knowing that he were going to go to hell, He Would have made him die little after his birth. But doig so there would have been the possibility that you or your wife or both would have been the ones who far from understanding the death of your son would eventually grow in hate against God. And you and/or your wife would have been lost. that is what it means to let evil and good people to coexists, because their roots are interconected and destroying evil ones you may also destroy good ones.

I think this is the best possible response to the first problem I raised. However, I find it very hard to accept. Did Hitler really make the world a better place? Was the unfathomable suffering he unleashed on millions of people outweighed by the good that some people were inspired to do as a result of the Holocaust? Was it really on balance a good thing that those millions were killed because of the affects those deaths had on others? I have heard people on this site make arguments like this about Hitler, but they just seem incredibly implausible to me. Are we so ignorant that no observed evil no matter how great could be incomparable with God’s goodness? Would this mean that no goodness no matter how great could be evidence against God potentially being an evil God? Would this mean that the world cannot provide us a window into God’s goodness? Are we then left with saying that we trust that God is good merely because he says he’s good? This seems like a very dangerous path to go down.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

anEvilAtheist:

I think this is the best possible response to the first problem I raised. However, I find it very hard to accept. Did Hitler really make the world a better place? Was the unfathomable suffering he unleashed on millions of people outweighed by the good that some people were inspired to do as a result of the Holocaust? Was it really on balance a good thing that those millions were killed because of the affects those deaths had on others? I have heard people on this site make arguments like this about Hitler, but they just seem incredibly implausible to me. Are we so ignorant that no observed evil no matter how great could be incomparable with God’s goodness? Would this mean that no goodness no matter how great could be evidence against God potentially being an evil God? Would this mean that the world cannot provide us a window into God’s goodness? Are we then left with saying that we trust that God is good merely because he says he’s good? This seems like a very dangerous path to go down.
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There is an inherent mystery to the problem of evil. The Catholic response is that we are in a fallen world, which has been redeemed, and is awaiting rebirth as a new and perfect world.

However, when we consider God without faith of any kind, we are perplexed by the fact that God may or may not exist. There is no definite proof one way or the other. We can consider evidences for or against, both for his existence and his nature. But in any event we can not KNOW God without Faith. For those without faith, there is just no way to decide, as you have illustrated quite well.

Why is Faith required? That itself may be a good starting point to ponder.

 

[Doxiemom]

First of all God knew what Lucifer was going to do just as He knew what Adam would do and He knew this before He created them and us. yet He went ahead and created.

But He also had a plan of salvation but only for mankind and none for the angels. Imagine how insulted they are. Us puny weakly humans, weighed down by flesh of all things, they get to be saved. and all He does for us is to carve out a place of torment called hell.

On top of that, while Lucifer was as beautiful as it gets, he finds out that God went and breathed His Spirit into Adam, making that dinky man in His image, No angel, no archangel, was ever so cherished to have that done. The insult! The rage!

Ah, but God’s plan of salvation uses Satan. It is a long and painful plan and the story is not done yet.

Why? because they were and are servants. We are His Children.

 

[cranster]

I God said many time humans were the most important of all his creations.

Do you have a link?

 

[jorge_carrillo]

mikekle, I’ve never been able to find a satisfactory answer to this question, and I think I would struggle with it a lot if I was Catholic. I have thoughts on some of the responses you received and if you’re interested in a non-Catholic perspective, please read on. Regardless, I hope you have a wonderful week!

Everybody does have these doubts. From protestant prospective predestination is the answer. From Catholic prospective the answer is feedom.

This seems like the most common reason people give. My first problem with this is that if God is all knowing, he knows what every being he creates will do if he creates them.

We all are created in the hand of God, we have such certainty, However, Do we have the judgment of God to define who is going to hell and who is not? That is far beyond our human created creatures limitations. We have for certain that God is our savior and that he want us to be free.

I have read in some explanations that eventually everybody when dying goes to the same place, to the burning Love of God, for the ones who have cleaned their clothes with the blood of the lamb of God, it is, those who have followed Jesus and have fight against Sin, the Furious fire of the presence of God is a blessing they have desired since they were alive, meanwhile those who since ever had rejected God, and have done everything what they have wanted as if their existence was something they had given to themselves, the presence of God is their worst nightmare, and his burning love is the most insufferable fire, Their hate to God burns them from inside, it consumes them in hate against themselves. The Lake of Fire is not anything but the Burning Love of God.

When creating only a finite number of a practically infinite number of possible beings, we would expect an infinitely good God to only create beings that will on balance make the world better rather than pull the world in the direction of evil. This would not require interfering with anyone’s free will.

Are catholics pulling the World into the direction of Evil? You are forgetting that God has created Free humans and he also has created the Church as the Kingdom of God on the earth, Humans behave according to selfishness, individual, familiar, regional, national, continental, etc. Catholicism teaches that God’s Will is opposed to such selfish attitudes, in the measure that Catholicism expands and humans believe, the world gets better.

But my second problem is with the concept of free will many people have. I don’t think most people have carefully thought through what they mean when they speak of free will. I think free will is the freedom to try to do the things you want to do. I can exercise my free will by attempting to commit a crime, but if someone stops me from committing it, that doesn’t mean that I no longer have free will.

Free Will in religious terms is meant on the conscience, humans are able to sin only by though, and The Lord speaks of that sin in the example of a watching in naughty way a woman, also the arrogance and pride are sins which close hearts to God. So, the sin is commited since the whole attitude of the person is driven to complete the sin, but if the sin is not completed thanks to the interference of a third one, then the commission of sin is not in full but in tentative, but such tentative is also sinful.

The world places limits on our ability to get what we want, but I don’t think this makes us unfree. Freedom does not require the ability to vaporize Mars using only your mind. Just like thieves have free will even though security guards may stop them from harming others, Satan could have free will even if God intervened to prevent him from harming others.

Free will is what makes us responsible of our own acts and of our own thoughts, acts and thoughts which are limited to our own limits, such limits are imposed by God through Our own nature, through the interaction and interference of multiple individuals confined in a sizable space, and through the physical laws and rules which govern our universe and the spiritual world.

 

[jorge_carrillo]

I think this is the best possible response to the first problem I raised. However, I find it very hard to accept. Did Hitler really make the world a better place?

I don’t know but perhaps Jews would not be having an independent State of Israel if Hitler abuses were not as terrible as Jews suffered, which somehow made pressure on United Nations to allow the Zionist Movement to draw many Jews to Palestine. In the other hand radical ideologies are not any longer easily accepted by societies, at least in western countries, and even in Muslim countries we are testifying the growing of a social conscience which is opening the windows to new light and fresh air. But, the instauration of relativistic ideology as the only true way of social interaction may result also in the instauration of a new veiled way of totalitarism.

Was the unfathomable suffering he unleashed on millions of people outweighed by the good that some people were inspired to do as a result of the Holocaust? Was it really on balance a good thing that those millions were killed because of the affects those deaths had on others? I have heard people on this site make arguments like this about Hitler, but they just seem incredibly implausible to me. Are we so ignorant that no observed evil no matter how great could be incomparable with God’s goodness?

I think that your problem is that you have settled yourself as the right measurer of evilness and goodness, You think that Evil you testify is so big that no good God may allow such thing, at least you are setting yourself as better being than God. But this act only explains that you do not accept that our human criteria is not God’s criteria, You seem not to accept that your prospective is very short termed, God has a plan which he has revealed in small shots, but history testifies in favor of those prophesies as ones that have validated the fact that times walk in the plan of God. What can we do as free beings? Take the decision of following God. We may not be able of understanding his plan, nor his criteria, but we can love him and accept him.

Would this mean that no goodness no matter how great could be evidence against God potentially being an evil God?

I think that if God is creator of me, and of all the beautiful things which surround me, if I see him evil then I am being arrogant.

Would this mean that the world cannot provide us a window into God’s goodness?

Cannot?

Are we then left with saying that we trust that God is good merely because he says he’s good?

Merely because he says so?
I would have to be very blind to say something like that, I would have to be full of arrogance to interpellate God that way you do, I would humbly say, God I do not understand your criteria but I accept your decisions, and I love you for the thing you have given us. Blessed be Your Name.

This seems like a very dangerous path to go down.

Indeed, placing oneself in the place of God is arrogance in pure state.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Why did Satan treat God as he did?

 

[Mount_Carmel]

Why did Satan treat God as he did?

Blinded by ‘pride’, then consumed with anger and rage?

Perhaps he was given a preview of humanity becoming as one with God through Jesus, and was further enraged and alientated at the thought of God not choosing the Angels to identify so intimately with?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Blinded by ‘pride’, then consumed with anger and rage?

Perhaps he was given a preview of humanity becoming as one with God through Jesus, and was further enraged and alientated at the thought of God not choosing the Angels to identify so intimately with?

One visionary, Mother Mary Agreda, explained that it was a vision of the woman in Apocalypse, IOW, the Immaculate Conception. The test for the Angels, was to accept this vision as their Queen.

 

[Dorothy]

Satan is on a “leash”. God allows the devils to tempt, and when humans resist that temptation with the help of the grace of the Lord, they grow in God’s grace. God’s grace is always available so that we can resist temptation.

 

[Dorothy]

One visionary, Mother Mary Agreda, explained that it was a vision of the woman in Apocalypse, IOW, the Immaculate Conception. The test for the Angels, was to accept this vision as their Queen.

And, through pride, the greatest sin, they were jealous of the Immaculate Conception, our Blessed Mother, because she, a mere creature (lower than the angels) was full of grace beyond their imagination.

A priest mentioned that during exorcisms it is made evident how much they fear Mary our mother in the order of grace.