Why did He let them walk away?

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Stone:
Yes, I apply a literal interpretation to this passage. The text does not indicate otherwise. As for the word “behold,” are you under the impression that only those who actually see Christ physically have eternal life? Don’t you understand what it means to “behold” Him with the eyes of faith? so behold is figurative and believe is literal…is this just arbitrary??? It appears so…
In John 6:47 Jesus clearly says: "Truly, truly I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life."But I do believe that. Where in the Bible does it say one must “accept” eternal life in order to have it? Eternal life is GIVEN to all who receive (by faith) Jesus Christ. C
an you show me where it states that I must “accept” the gift of eternal life before I can have it? You are only working in the present tense! Salvation is the goal–not the process.1 Peter 1:9 …as you attain the goal of your faith, salvation…

and more…these show that is is an ONGOING PROCESS TOWARD SALVATION WHICH IS ACHIEVED IN AN INDIVIDUAL’S FUTURE:

Phil. 2:12 …work out your salvation with fear and trembling…

Mt. 10:22 …he who endures to the end will be saved…

Mt 24:13 …he who perseveres to the end will be saved…

mk 8:35 …whoever loses his life…will save it…

Acts 15:11 …we shall be saved through the grace…

Rom 5:9-10 …since we are justified, we shall be saved

Rom 13:11 …salvation is nearer now than first believed…

1 Cor 3:15 …he will be saved, but only as through fire…

Heb 9:28 …Jesus will appear a second time, to bring salvation
 
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Stone:
I can’t believe you actually said this. …But the names of those who have put their trust in Christ alone are for sure listed in "THE LAMB’S Book of life. I know without a doubt my name is there. I have trusted in Christ alone.
And this is absolutely True (i.e…FACT)…because YOU say so? Where is your empirical evidence? If you have nothing to prove it…it is only a human belief of which you may be reasonably “CONFIDENT” but not “ASSURED” it is called FAITH!
 
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mercygate:
Spoken like a true Catholic, Spokes! 😃

SPOKES: “seeing in the natural” = “the flesh [as opposed to “my flesh”] is of no avail.”

SPOKES: “impossible to see the supernatural in the natural” = “It is the spirit that gives life.”
Hi Mercy,You keep saying it and I might start to believe it. 😃 God Bless
 
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st_felicity:
so behold is figurative and believe is literal…is this just arbitrary??? It appears so…
You are only working in the present tense! Salvation is the goal–not the process.1 Peter 1:9 …as you attain the goal of your faith, salvation…

and more…these show that is is an ONGOING PROCESS TOWARD SALVATION WHICH IS ACHIEVED IN AN INDIVIDUAL’S FUTURE:

Phil. 2:12 …work out your salvation with fear and trembling…

Mt. 10:22 …he who endures to the end will be saved…

Mt 24:13 …he who perseveres to the end will be saved…

mk 8:35 …whoever loses his life…will save it…

Acts 15:11 …we shall be saved through the grace…

Rom 5:9-10 …since we are justified, we shall be saved

Rom 13:11 …salvation is nearer now than first believed…

1 Cor 3:15 …he will be saved, but only as through fire…

Heb 9:28 …Jesus will appear a second time, to bring salvation
Actually, I could go through each one of these and show you how they’re taken out of context, but I think that would be an exercise of futility. But let me ask you, in your belief system, of what significance, if any, does the cross of Christ have on one’s salvation?
 
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Stone:
Actually, I could go through each one of these and show you how they’re taken out of context, but I think that would be an exercise of futility. But let me ask you, in your belief system, of what significance, if any, does the cross of Christ have on one’s salvation?
Stone, you’re better than this. I’m disappointed.
 
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st_felicity:
And this is absolutely True (i.e…FACT)…because YOU say so? Where is your empirical evidence? If you have nothing to prove it…it is only a human belief of which you may be reasonably “CONFIDENT” but not “ASSURED” it is called FAITH!
Of course it’s faith. It’s faith in God’s immutable, written Word. It’s not faith that assures me, it’s God’s written Word: *“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God…”; “being justified as a gift by His grace…” *God’s written Word speaks of sovereign grace when it comes to salvation, through Christ and His substitutionary sin-sacrifice. Not “graces.”

“For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the
victory that has overcome the world-- our faith” (1 Jn. 5:4).

That’s faith in what God says He accomplished completely and forever through the cross of Jesus Christ.
 
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Stone:
Of course it’s faith. It’s faith in God’s immutable, written Word. It’s not faith that assures me, it’s God’s written Word: *“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God…”; “being justified as a gift by His grace…” *God’s written Word speaks of sovereign grace when it comes to salvation, through Christ and His substitutionary sin-sacrifice. Not “graces.”

“For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the
victory that has overcome the world-- our faith” (1 Jn. 5:4).

That’s faith in what God says He accomplished completely and forever through the cross of Jesus Christ.
No, Catholics believe that we are justified “by grace through faith working in love” … Galatians 5:6, not by faith alone. What is a gift … it is something I can either refuse or accept. God will not force anyone, anytime to do His will, God will always respect our free will.

As Mother Teresa of Calcutta said, “Everything is grace.” We are sustained by grace, we endure by grace, everything good in this world is a grace given by God. You see faith as a one time deal … once I got it I can never lose it. No … faith endures daily by grace.

I imagine you, Stone, having an active prayer life, one who daily lives his life the best you can using Christ as your compass. But to me you take an active part in your Christian life, you do not idly sit by and do nothing. Even your postings, though I do not agree with your postings, invite one to more deeply delve into Christ’s word. That is “faith working in love”. That is what we Catholics mean by “faith working in love”.
 
Jesus says, “This is my body…This is my blood.”

On judgement day, if I am mistaken in taking those words literally, and Jesus rebukes me and says, " Why did you misunderstand my supper?" I will answer, “Lord, I was taking you at your word.”

But if Jesus meant for those words to be taken literally, and I have taken them figuratively, the only thing I could say is: " Lord, it was a hard saying. I trusted my reason more than your words."
I would rather be rebuked for taking Jesus at His Word, than for not doing so.
 
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Mickey:
Jesus says, “This is my body…This is my blood.”

On judgement day, if I am mistaken in taking those words literally, and Jesus rebukes me and says, " Why did you misunderstand my supper?" I will answer, “Lord, I was taking you at your word.”

But if Jesus meant for those words to be taken literally, and I have taken them figuratively, the only thing I could say is: " Lord, it was a hard saying. I trusted my reason more than your words."
I would rather be rebuked for taking Jesus at His Word, than for not doing so.
I can only say “wow” to such a profound way of explaining the Eucharist. Thank you.

Kris
 
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Stone:
Actually, I could go through each one of these and show you how they’re taken out of context, but I think that would be an exercise of futility.
Oh my…

Stone? Have you hit the wall on this discussion? :banghead: ? I just don’t see how you could argue the tese of the the passages I cited. You probably have some convoluted explanation that will salve your conscience…but how do you argue with these ???
Mt. 10:22 …he who endures to the end will be saved…
Mt 24:13 …he who perseveres to the end will be saved…

it BLATENTLY says you must persevere to the END! and that the future event is salvation. Does it not count because it is only in Matthew? Like the Bread of Life discourse is only in John?
But let me ask you, in your belief system, of what significance, if any, does the cross of Christ have on one’s salvation?
This just proves how that you perceive your own argument is weak. When someone feels they have no other option…they “attack the man”–it’s called an Ad Hominum attack. I hope this was out of frustration and you don’t really mean it–regardless…I forgive you…🙂
 
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Mercygate:
Stone, you’re better than this. I’m disappointed.
Why? It’s a very sincere and legitimate question. How does the cross of Christ directly effect the salvation (more accurately, “precarious salvation”) of a Catholic? Felicity just gave me a list of passages she says proves that Catholics are not, nor cannot be, saved until the very end of their lives (if that’s what “endures to the end” means to her; although the context of the passage is “end of the age,” which would restrict those who are saved even more). Her list presents personal requirements such as "works,"endurance,” “perseverence,” “self-will,” and the hope that Jeses will* bring* you salvation at His 2nd Advent (the last would even imply that none of you will know if you’re saved until Christ returns to this earth at the end of the age).

So based on Felicity’s list, I truly do wonder of what or any kind of significant roll the cross even plays in the Catholic gospel of salvation.

Ncgolf” says a Catholic’s salvation is based on faith plus “works of love.” But what’s the content of that faith if it (faith’s content) does not, nor cannot, save completely, but requires meritorious works of love as well? I can understand doing works of love because one IS saved, but faith plus works of love is order to get saved is very different.

So, tell me, please, of what significance is the cross in respect to salvation to a Catholic?
 
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st_felicity:
Oh my…

Stone? Have you hit the wall on this discussion? :banghead: ? I just don’t see how you could argue the tese of the the passages I cited. You probably have some convoluted explanation that will salve your conscience…but how do you argue with these ???
Mt. 10:22 …he who endures to the end will be saved…
Mt 24:13 …he who perseveres to the end will be saved…

it BLATENTLY says you must persevere to the END! and that the future event is salvation. Does it not count because it is only in Matthew? Like the Bread of Life discourse is only in John?
Please read Matt. 10:22 in context. Felicity, how many cities in Israel have you gone through preaching the gospel of the kingdom (vs. 23)? Look at Matt. 24:13 in context with 24:3. His disciples are asking a question pertaining to events which will occur at the “end of the age.” Persevering “to the end” in this context would mean to the “end of the age.” And “saved” must be understood in that context, hence, not necessarily in relation to eternal redemption but one’s physical life.
This just proves how that you perceive your own argument is weak. When someone feels they have no other option…they “attack the man”–it’s called an Ad Hominum attack. I hope this was out of frustration and you don’t really mean it–regardless…I forgive you…🙂
I did not “attack” any one personally, therefore my questions were not at all ad hominem. It was a legitimate theological question based on the list you provided for a Catholic to qualify for salvation.
 
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Stone:
Persevering “to the end” in this context would mean to the “end of the age.” And “saved” must be understood in that context, hence, not necessarily in relation to eternal redemption but one’s physical life.
and what difference does that make? If you die before Christ’s second coming…you have persevered to the end, for you…If you are here at the second coming–that is the end. How does this negate that one must daily take up his cross as Jesus did and remain ever vigilent against false “Messiah’s” (24:5)? One must persevere to the end of the age–be it the end of life in Matt.10 or at the parousia as in Matt. 24.
I did not “attack” any one personally, therefore my questions were not at all ad hominem. It was a legitimate theological question based on the list you provided for a Catholic to qualify for salvation.
It is so ad hominem…you directed it to me and you implied there was no meaning in the cross for Catholics (“if any…”) PLEASE! Where is the Corpus in Protestant churches? It’s all about the prize–the Risen Christ–not the Suffering Servant. Where is the sacrifice in the Protestant church–Catholic Mass CENTERS on the cross–the Eucharist! This is an inane question.
 
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Stone:
. How does the cross of Christ directly effect the salvation (more accurately, “precarious salvation”) of a Catholic?
. . . So based on Felicity’s list, I truly do wonder of what or any kind of significant roll the cross even plays in the Catholic gospel of salvation.

Ncgolf” says a Catholic’s salvation is based on faith plus “works of love.” But what’s the content of that faith if it (faith’s content) does not, nor cannot, save completely, but requires meritorious works of love as well? I can understand doing works of love because one IS saved, but faith plus works of love is order to get saved is very different.

So, tell me, please, of what significance is the cross in respect to salvation to a Catholic?
Let me answer from a pastoral rather than an intellectual perspective. And, FWIW, I think you’re still clingng to a residue of the erroneous view that Protestants sometimes have of Catholic teaching, i.e., that works = “works righteousness.” (BTW, you say St. Felicity’s list included “self-will” but it did not.)

When Catholics are accused by Protestants of not having “a personal relationship with Jesus Christ,” we scratch our heads because for us, being in what St. Paul calls “the race” is a vital and intimate way of being in personal relationship – as is the theme of this thread: not walking away from the Eucharist.

When Catholics read Scripture, we recognize all those passages, like Hebrews 6:4, 2Tim:4, Heb 12:1, and Phil 2:12, taken together with the 80+ NT references to “hope” of salvation, and so on, that clearly indicate that our assurance of salvation lies not in a single faith-act of ours but on our contining by grace in faith and living according to the promise. Our personal relationship with Jesus Christ is a constant affirmation of faith in his promise. Let me quote a good illustration posted by Genesis315 on another thread:
With original sin, we are essentially put in a debtors prison with no way to pay our debt. When Jesus died he paid our debt and purchased our release. This just means the door to our cell is opened; it doesn’t mean we are beamed out of the prison. The only way we can leave the prison is by taking Jesus’ hand and walking out with Him. We can choose not to take His hand and remain in our prison cell. If we do take His hand, we will begin our walk towards the door. Every time we sin mortally, it’s like we let go of Jesus’ hand and fall down. He reaches His hand out to us again and we can choose to take it again, get up, and continue walking with Him, or we can choose not to. If we make it to the door (when we die) and we are still holding his hand, we have persevered and are saved. If we get to the door and are separated from Jesus, in essence we let Him walk out the door and we close it behind him, choosing to remain alone in our prison forever.
This view in no way denigrates the efficacy of the Cross, demeans its finality, limits its scope or denies its sufficiency. [We could start a whole 'nother thread on the nuances of perfect, condign and congruous merit, but let’s hold on that.] Just as Jesus persevered to the end, so must we, by grace through faith, persevere with him.

We find this not burdensome, but exhilarating. Knowing that Christ gives us his grace, moment by moment, intimately throughout our lives, to live by the power of his Cross is a dynamic hope of hearing the master say: “Well done, good and faithful servant.”
 
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Stone:
Ncgolf” says a Catholic’s salvation is based on faith plus “works of love.” But what’s the content of that faith if it (faith’s content) does not, nor cannot, save completely, but requires meritorious works of love as well? I can understand doing works of love because one IS saved, but faith plus works of love is order to get saved is very different.

So, tell me, please, of what significance is the cross in respect to salvation to a Catholic?
You see faith as a static, never changing condition. For you it is either on or off, yes or no, black or white … I see it as a continuim … it is something ALIVE. I NEVER said salvation requires works of love, my statement defined what and how the salvation process is … it can be defined. I stand by my statement.

Ah, the cross, it always comes to that. This is my personal opinion. I hope to carry the cross as Christ did, not because I want the difficulties, hardships and disappointments in life but because of the Father’s will. The empty tomb came from Christ doing the Father’s will … if Christ abandoned the Father’s will there is no empty tomb. I hope to carry my cross as Christ did, to forgive as Christ did … “forgive them for they know not what they do”. I have my earthly life to lead, to follow Christ every day … to then one day leave this earth come face to face with the Risen Lord. You see only the empty tomb … I see the Passion, death and Resurrection of the Lord as the whole story. So did Mel.

It is not Christ without the Cross nor the Cross without Christ, it is both. The empty tomb was preceded by pain and suffering … Christ could not escape it nor can I.
 
Isn’t this all a separate topic that needs its own thread, since it sin’t really relavent to the Eucharistic aspect of the OP?
 
Yes, we do get sidetracked so to get back on track I offer John of Damascus, 665-749 AD:

“And now you ask how the bread becomes the body of Christ, and the wine and the water become the blood of Christ. I shall tell you. The Holy Spirit comes upon them, and achieves things which surpass every word and thought… Let it be enough for you to understand that this takes place by the Holy Spirit.”

The theology of the Eucharist is available to all, all that remains is to believe.
 
Stone,
If the Cathloic belief in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist is not true … then what are the Catholics doing? Would we be guilty of some sort of offense to God?

Please let me know.
 
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ncgolf:
Ah, the cross, it always comes to that. This is my personal opinion. I hope to carry the cross as Christ did, not because I want the difficulties, hardships and disappointments in life but because of the Father’s will. The empty tomb came from Christ doing the Father’s will … if Christ abandoned the Father’s will there is no empty tomb. I hope to carry my cross as Christ did, to forgive as Christ did … “forgive them for they know not what they do”. I have my earthly life to lead, to follow Christ every day … to then one day leave this earth come face to face with the Risen Lord. You see only the empty tomb … I see the Passion, death and Resurrection of the Lord as the whole story. So did Mel.

It is not Christ without the Cross nor the Cross without Christ, it is both. The empty tomb was preceded by pain and suffering … Christ could not escape it nor can I.
Ah-hah. I see! So to the Catholic the cross is not a “message” of salvation, but a “method” of salvation. As Christ took up His cross, you take up yours. Very enlightening. Ultimately a works “gospel.”

This is important because it helps me to understand why in all of our discussions of John six all of you seem to avoid the saving faith aspects of that chapter: John 6:28-29, 35-37, 40, 44, 47, 67-69.

And this I believe is the reason Catholicism and true Evangelicalism will never merge. What will always separate us is our fundamental belief of the soteriological aspects of the cross of Christ. That’s why we talk past each other when we dialogue.
 
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Stone:
Ah-hah. I see! So to the Catholic the cross is not a “message” of salvation, but a “method” of salvation. As Christ took up His cross, you take up yours. Very enlightening. Ultimately a works “gospel.”
The Boss himself says it: Mt. 16:24. “Then Jesus told his disciples, ‘If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.’”
 
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