Why did He let them walk away?

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And we are not even compelled to do so by some outside “force.”

This “outside” (and inward) force is called Jesus Christ!

This is true freedom and true unity to me.

Real deception and false unity.

“Relativism” is the belief that truth is relative to a group of individuals.

correct! 😉

Having freedom to disagree is an epistomological norm, and speaks nothing about the ontology of truth.

Heretics are always wanting to find something more true than truth. They are always choosing new and unreliable ways. But like the blind led by the blind, they will fall into the abyss of ignorance by their own fault. 😉
 
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st_felicity:
Man, Michael…what do you teach?–this is basic.
I am even more saddened for those who are being taught this circular revisionist theology. The teacher will be held accountable at the final judgement! 😦
 
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Stone:
In many parts of his writing you would really need to talk to Ignatius personally to know exactly what he’s stating.
That’s a keen way of negating the writings of the disciple of the apostle St John. :tsktsk:
 
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Mickey:
I am even more saddened for those who are being taught this circular revisionist theology. The teacher will be held accountable at the final judgement! 😦

Heretics are always wanting to find something more true than truth.
To start accusations is always a good way to dodge when you have no where else to go and not much confidence in your argumentation. This is becoming fairly common here. But, hey, I will not do the same.😉
 
Church Militant:
As do most Catholics… :irish1:
Hey Mike, maybe you ought to take a poll and see how many Catholics are amil and how many are premil. Or do you want me to?

You know what it will be since vatican has judged the early church fathers view of premil as unsafe–in short, it is wrong. But it is hard to interpret isn’t it?😃
 
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michaelp:
Hey Mike, maybe you ought to take a poll and see how many Catholics are amil and how many are premil. Or do you want me to?

You know what it will be since vatican has judged the early church fathers view of premil as unsafe–in short, it is wrong. But it is hard to interpret isn’t it?😃
 
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Mickey:
And we are not even compelled to do so by some outside “force.”

This “outside” (and inward) force is called Jesus Christ!

This is true freedom and true unity to me.

Real deception and false unity.

“Relativism” is the belief that truth is relative to a group of individuals.

correct! 😉

Having freedom to disagree is an epistomological norm, and speaks nothing about the ontology of truth.

Heretics are always wanting to find something more true than truth. They are always choosing new and unreliable ways. But like the blind led by the blind, they will fall into the abyss of ignorance by their own fault. 😉
Mickey,

Just one question one more time. Do you have the freedom to disagree on certian areas?
 
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michaelp:
To start accusations is always a good way to dodge when you have no where else to go and not much confidence in your argumentation. This is becoming fairly common here. But, hey, I will not do the same.😉
You will not do the same? You just accused me of dodging and having no confidence in my argumentation. Ego is dangerous isn’t it pastor?😉 Since this discourse has regrettably turned confrontational, I will shake the dust from by shoes.

BTW: My statement wasn’t directed soley at you.

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers who shall bring in sects of perdition and deny the Lord who bought them: bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 Peter 2:1
 
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michaelp:
Mickey,

Just one question one more time. Do you have the freedom to disagree on certian areas?
I am not free to disagree with Jesus Christ or His Bride, The Catholic Church. But this is way off topic and I am done with this thread.

Goodbye, Good luck, and may God Bless you
 
You know…I totally agree…this is exactly how I see it…I’m interested in the Protestant perspective…
…any takers?
Sorry guys…I’m one of the Protestant lurkers and have only today read through this thread.

I’m not hiding out, nor am I too chicken to try to answer the questions. My answers are.
  1. I don’t know
  2. I don’t know
  3. I don’t know
I’m not to cowardly to play ball with you guys, just to let you know. But I’m simply not up on things enuff to hang with the big boys. :cool: So I’m just playing the sandbox with my shovel and bucket - doing the best I can.

But I’m not too wimpy to answer, even if it’s “I don’t know.”
 
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michaelp:
And do you also believe what the early church fathers believed about the millennium since they were so close in geographically and chronologically? They believed in a literal future millennium.
But as long as we are receiving the sacraments and trying to live as Christ taught, then why worry about the end? The Disciples all thought that Jesus was coming back soon. Probably in “this generation”. But in my limited reading of the early church that is not what the preponderance of the teaching was concerned with. It was how to live until that time came. You may accuse me of dodging your question, but I really don’t have an opinion on the subject. To me, amil or premil just doesn’t really merit the same discussion as the Eucharist… which is Christ in the here and now.

Thanks for the discussion. I can see this thread has fallen apart but I still enjoyed it.
 
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Mickey:
But, biblically speaking, as I believe I have demonstrated, there is every compelling reason to reject the Catholic idea of the “real presence.”
Your arguments are specious, that is, plausable, but false. He Himself said “My Body is food indeed, My Blood is drink indeed”.

It isn’t just the Catholic idea. All of the ancient christian churches, as evidence in the writings from the present, going back to the 1st and 2nd century attest to this understanding of the Scriptures. Check it out for yourself. These are all readily available, assuming you wish to know the truth. Otherwise, just feel free to reject it. It’s your choice.

God Bless and keep you.
 
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Curious:
But I’m simply not up on things enuff to hang with the big boys.
Welcome Curious. BTW, We aren’t the big boys. In fact in our Faith, there’s only one Big Boy.

Feel free to watch and comment whenever you have something to say.

May the love of God the Father, the peace of His Son Our Lord Jesus Christ, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.
 
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michaelp:
Just one question one more time. Do you have the freedom to disagree on certian areas?
Well, what you are asking is “do you have the fredom to disagree with the inspired guidance of the Holy Spirit whom Jesus sent to guide His Church?”.

The answer is: yes, but it is not wise.

Now one for you: If you were came to the knowledge that the Church was founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit, would you want to disagree with His teaching?

May God Bless and watch over you and guide you to the pillar and foundation of Truth.
 
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st_felicity:
Which verse in the John 6 discourse says that? This seems an important point. You need to identify the verse there that says His life is transferred through faith. I don’t see it–but I’ve been accused of having “Catholic” eyes before…
When reading Jn. six you have to read it in total context. Catholics tend to focus just on the words “eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood” (vs. 53), and do not take into consideration how these words fit into the entire context of Christ’s discourse. You’re told by the Magesterium that these words refer to the Eucharist and the Mass, so why bother to study His words in context?

In verse 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life (He begins with an obvious metaphor); he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and He who BELIEVES in Me shall never thirst.” “But I said to you, that you have seen Me, and yet do NOT BELIEVE” (vs. 36). “Truly, truly, he who BELIEVES HAS ETERNAL LIFE” (vs. 47). “I am the bread of LIFE” (vs. 48). “This is the bread that comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die” (vs. 50).

(Notice the key phrases that puts it all in perspective: “he who comes to Me,” “he who believes in Me,” “life,” “eternal,” “that one may eat and NOT DIE”)

In context Jesus is comparing Himself with the “manna” their ancestors ate in the wilderness which God provided to sustain their physical lives. And He draws upon this historical event to build the spiritual principle behind the metaphor He now presents to them concerning Himself. That just as the life of the manna was transferred to the one who ate it, thereby sustaining his physical life, even more, the life of Christ, the true bread that came down out of heaven, is transferred to the one who “believes” in Him, and the life in Him is “eternal.”

Jesus informs them of how this will be done in verse 51: “I am the bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread also which I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh” (cf. Jn. 3:16). This is not a reference to the Eucharist but His substitutionary sacrifice on the cross. After His death, burial and bodily resurrection the word went out by the Apostles to the world that whoever BELIEVES in Him HAS ETERNAL LIFE (Rom. 6:32; 1 Tim. 1:16).

The metaphor of eating and drinking was the best possible figure Jesus could employ to express the assimilation of one body by another, whereby life is transferred from the eaten to the eater. The literal eating of His flesh and blood was not being demanded. Jesus carefully explained that the process was analogous to His own living by the Father (vs. 57; cf. Jn. 4:34; 5:19; 14:10-11), and obviously eating and drinking can not be literally applied there.

The truth fully set forth in Christ’s discourse in this chapter is the believer’s UNION with his Lord, his complete dependence upon Him for life, his continued appropriation, by faith, of His very self, his feeding on Him, living on Him, his experience that Jesus in giving Himself (on the cross) satisfies every want of his soul.

Of course the metaphor was repulsive, but it graphically expressed the meaning of the complete assimilation of Christ into all the life of the believer, and the life of the believer into that of Christ ( vs. 56; cf. Jn. 14:19; 23; Jn. 17:20-23). Jesus explained to His disciples, who did not immediately defect by what He had said, that the words He spoke “are spirit and are life.”

His veiled statements mystified not only His enemies but also many who professed to being His disciples. And upon hearing His graphic, metaphorical words they grumbled and refused to walk with Him anymore (vs. 66). But John makes it very clear in his account that this defection was no surprise to Jesus (vs. 64). He knew them, He knew their inward rebellion. The whole purpose was to promote faith in Him (our only Source of eternal life), and in so doing it weeded out the insincere, the imposter, who rather than inquire further into what He had said, instead immediately defected. Their inward unbelief was fully exposed by their defection.

None of the N.T. writers equate what Jesus said in Jn. six to the words He spoke to His disciples at the Last Supper. And it’s already been pointed out that John doesn’t even record those words. In this case silence speaks loudly.
 
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Mickey:
That’s a keen way of negating the writings of the disciple of the apostle St John. :tsktsk:
I am negating nothing. But one must be careful not to build doctrine on non-Holy Spirit inspired writings. As well as pour into those writings your own preconceived ideas.
 
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Stone:
When reading Jn. six you have to read it in total context. Catholics tend to focus just on the words “eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood” (vs. 53), and do not take into consideration how these words fit into the entire context of Christ’s discourse. You’re told by the Magesterium that these words refer to the Eucharist and the Mass, so why bother to study His words in context?

In verse 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life (He begins with an obvious metaphor); he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and He who BELIEVES in Me shall never thirst.” “But I said to you, that you have seen Me, and yet do NOT BELIEVE” (vs. 36). “Truly, truly, he who BELIEVES HAS ETERNAL LIFE” (vs. 47). “I am the bread of LIFE” (vs. 48). “This is the bread that comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die” (vs. 50).

(Notice the key phrases that puts it all in perspective: “he who comes to Me,” “he who believes in Me,” “life,” “eternal,” “that one may eat and NOT DIE”)

In context Jesus is comparing Himself with the “manna” their ancestors ate in the wilderness which God provided to sustain their physical lives. And He draws upon this historical event to build the spiritual principle behind the metaphor He now presents to them concerning Himself. That just as the life of the manna was transferred to the one who ate it, thereby sustaining his physical life, even more, the life of Christ, the true bread that came down out of heaven, is transferred to the one who “believes” in Him, and the life in Him is “eternal.”

Jesus informs them of how this will be done in verse 51: “I am the bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread also which I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh” (cf. Jn. 3:16). This is not a reference to the Eucharist but His substitutionary sacrifice on the cross. After His death, burial and bodily resurrection the word went out by the Apostles to the world that whoever BELIEVES in Him HAS ETERNAL LIFE (Rom. 6:32; 1 Tim. 1:16).

The metaphor of eating and drinking was the best possible figure Jesus could employ to express the assimilation of one body by another, whereby life is transferred from the eaten to the eater. The literal eating of His flesh and blood was not being demanded. Jesus carefully explained that the process was analogous to His own living by the Father (vs. 57; cf. Jn. 4:34; 5:19; 14:10-11), and obviously eating and drinking can not be literally applied there.

The truth fully set forth in Christ’s discourse in this chapter is the believer’s UNION with his Lord, his complete dependence upon Him for life, his continued appropriation, by faith, of His very self, his feeding on Him, living on Him, his experience that Jesus in giving Himself (on the cross) satisfies every want of his soul.

Of course the metaphor was repulsive, but it graphically expressed the meaning of the complete assimilation of Christ into all the life of the believer, and the life of the believer into that of Christ ( vs. 56; cf. Jn. 14:19; 23; Jn. 17:20-23). Jesus explained to His disciples, who did not immediately defect by what He had said, that the words He spoke “are spirit and are life.”

His veiled statements mystified not only His enemies but also many who professed to being His disciples. And upon hearing His graphic, metaphorical words they grumbled and refused to walk with Him anymore (vs. 66). But John makes it very clear in his account that this defection was no surprise to Jesus (vs. 64). He knew them, He knew their inward rebellion. The whole purpose was to promote faith in Him (our only Source of eternal life), and in so doing it weeded out the insincere, the imposter, who rather than inquire further into what He had said, instead immediately defected. Their inward unbelief was fully exposed by their defection.

None of the N.T. writers equate what Jesus said in Jn. six to the words He spoke to His disciples at the Last Supper. And it’s already been pointed out that John doesn’t even record those words. In this case silence speaks loudly.
Great response Stone. Well thought out and articulated. I appreciate your thinking, but most of all I appreciate that you do not outsource your theology to another. What a strong rock it is to stand on such thinking.

Michael
 
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Ignatius:
Your arguments are specious, that is, plausable, but false. He Himself said “My Body is food indeed, My Blood is drink indeed”.

It isn’t just the Catholic idea. All of the ancient christian churches, as evidence in the writings from the present, going back to the 1st and 2nd century attest to this understanding of the Scriptures. Check it out for yourself. These are all readily available, assuming you wish to know the truth. Otherwise, just feel free to reject it. It’s your choice.

God Bless and keep you.
Ignatius, even though I disagree with you concerning this, it is the most intellectually honest statement that I have seen on this thread. Thanks for acknowledging the plausability of the arguments. This at least shows that you are willing to think and consider what the other side is saying. This goes a long way.

Michael
 
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michaelp:
Great response Stone. Well thought out and articulated. I appreciate your thinking, but most of all I appreciate that you do not outsource your theology to another. What a strong rock it is to stand on such thinking.

Michael
Come on now. That is not fair or intellectually honest. If you can tell me that you have never learned any of your beliefs or ideas from another person including a pastor, parent or friend, then I will let it go. However, I know that neither of you just picked up the Bible and came up with the arguments you are presenting. You may be presenting what you think the Bible is saying and I can respect that. However, if you have learned anything from someone who came before you then I too could accuse you of outsourcing. It’s just that as Catholics we can point to people in the second century that were taught by the apostles. They then handed these teachings down throughout the last 2000 years. If you can do the same then I would love to read your arguments. But leave the cute little jabs for the playground. I take this very seriously.
 
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michaelp:
Great response Stone. Well thought out and articulated. I appreciate your thinking, but most of all I appreciate that you do not outsource your theology to another. What a strong rock it is to stand on such thinking.

Michael
Actually, it was nowhere near a great response as it totally avoided the same argument that I presented to you without answer at least 3 times, and Ani posted yet again on this thread I believe.

Once again, by assuming that Jesus was not speaking literally when he said “eat my flesh” and “drink my blood”, you must needs assume he was speaking in some figurative or metaphorical manner. However, it is a demonstrable fact from Scripture that “to eat the flesh” and “drink the blood” of someone already had a non-literal meaning, being to do someone harm, especially in a bodily way. If you would like, I can post all the relevant references in Scripture for a fourth or fifth time.

Therefore, your position forces Jesus into being some kind of babbling fool for making a statement that amounts to “Verily, verily I say unto you, except you attack the Son of man and harm him, ye have no life in you. Whoso reviles me and curses me hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” (Jn 6:53), or you make Him into a liar and deceiver for letting the crowd leave Him and go off to eternal damnation (Matt 10:33) over a misunderstanding caused His own deliberately misleading use of a common Jewish metaphor.

Either way, your non-literal interpretation does extreme violence to the text itself, not to mention it casting some very negative aspersions upon our Lord and Savior. Is holding to your erroneous hypothesis really worth it?

Furthermore, this ground has already been covered in depth on this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=37423
 
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