Why did He let them walk away?

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Posting almost simultaneously–we became our own cheering section…hee-hee…😃
 
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st_felicity:
I suppose one out of three aint bad…😛

Oh…okay…I guess Luke does put it covenant “IN” my blood…

…but he says, “this cup ‘IS’ the new covenant” *NOT *“this is the cup of …” Picky samantics–I know…Luke also says "this ‘IS’ my body…"
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In good faith, felicity, the use of the word ‘is’ can be used as an equation between two physical realities sharing a common characteristic or it can be used as a metaphoric device.

Literal or metaphoric, I suppose, does depend on context. Let us remember, however, that much of the Gospels and certainly the lion’s share of Paul deploy changes in context – paradigm shifts, if you will.
 
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Stone:
Based on his logic, couldn’t a priest then utter the words “increase and multiply” and babies would appear, both human and animal?
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Is that what priests are instructed to do?
 
Ani Ibi:
In good faith, felicity, the use of the word ‘is’ can be used as an equation between two physical realities sharing a common characteristic or it can be used as a metaphoric device.
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You’re being no fun Ani… Yes…I know…:o Anyway–in John 6 Jesus says it over and over–it’s clearly literal. One can only harp on “My body is TRUE food” so much…
 
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st_felicity:
John does record the Last Supper—however, I assume you mean that he does not have the portion that specifically says, “This is my body…etc…” John’s gospel begins with “In the beginning was the Word…” John’s focus is on the WORDs of eternal life—the message given to those who will believe. Over and over and over again—John’s gospel charges people to LISTEN to his WORDS and BELIEVE what He has SAID, HEAR his VOICE, and DO as He TELLS… What is it that Jesus tells us. “my flesh is TRUE food.”
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I’m still looking forward to a response to this…😃
 
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st_felicity:
You’re being no fun Ani… Yes…I know…:o Anyway–in John 6 Jesus says it over and over–it’s clearly literal. One can only harp on “My body is TRUE food” so much…
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What is the substance of true food?
 
Please stay on topic. The questions are:

What was the “saying” that was hard to accept?
Why did the disciples leave Jesus?
Why did Jesus let them go?

To discuss the Host under it’s species, please start a new thread in apologetics.

God Bless,
 
Joseph Romero:
Please stay on topic. The questions are:

What was the “saying” that was hard to accept?
Why did the disciples leave Jesus?
Why did Jesus let them go?

To discuss the Host under it’s species, please start a new thread in apologetics.

God Bless,
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OK.
 
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st_felicity:
I’m still looking forward to a response to this…😃
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Felicity,

John’s Gospel contains the upper room discourse, but it does not include the last supper. In fact, John records more of the events of the last evening than any other Gospel writer covering five full chapters (13-17–almost 1/4 of the entire Gospel!!) and doesn’t even mention the last supper discourse at all! The fact that he does mention eating dinner and washing of the disciples feet is all the more telling. For some reason, he is not the least bit concerned that people know that Jesus said “this is my body and this is my blood” nor any of the implications of this. Therefore, John does not believe that this event is in any way essential for salvation the way that you do, since the event in the Gospel of John were the essential events for salvation:

**John 20:30-31 **30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Therefore, to say that John 6 refers to an essential event that John believed was necessary for one to partake in for their salvation but John did not include the event that John 6 is referring to is a stretch to say the least (IMHO:)). This seems to be a case reading your own theology into the text and not looking to understand John on his own terms.

You have to answer the question: Why would John fail to record the event (presentation of the Eucharist) statement in John 6 is referring?

Michael
 
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michaelp:
Felicity,

John’s Gospel contains the upper room discourse, but it does not include the last supper. … Therefore, John does not believe that this event is in any way essential for salvation the way that you do, since the event in the Gospel of John were the essential events for salvation:
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Michael,
The Gospel of John was probably written in the mid-to-late 90s of the 1st century—later than the other gospels. Christians had been worshipping for more than a half century—it is safe to assume that elements of the infant Church were pretty well established. John’s gospel opens with a prologue stating Jesus is the WORD. This sets the tone for the rest of the book. John’s focus will be on the WORD, and the words of the WORD. John says in 1:14 “And the Word became flesh…” He already is connecting the idea of Word and Flesh in his gospel, but the Church already had done so in practice.

I make the assertion that the worship of the infant Curch was fairly well established—specifically with regard to the belief that the Eucharist is the TRUE flesh and blood of Jesus Christ based on the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch. The following is a brief example—Although I think Mickey (props!) already posted some of his writings in support…

**
from catholicfaithandreason.org/fathersoneucharist.htm
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St. Ignatius of Antioch was a pagan by birth and a Syrian. He became the third bishop of Antioch and may be considered an apostolic Father in the sense that he heard the Apostle John preach. About 110 A.D. he was sentenced to a martyr’s death in the arena by the Emperor Trajan, who also put Pope Clement to death. On the almost 1000 mile journey to Rome from Antioch, Syria, the third largest city of the Empire, Ignatius wrote seven letters, which are his only surviving letters. They are addressed to Christian communities he presided over as bishop. He speaks of the Eucharistic mystery in mystical terms saying, “Therefore arm yourselves with gentleness, renew yourselves in faith, which is the Flesh of the Lord, and in charity, which is the Blood of Jesus Christ.” His most famous passage says:
I am God’s grain, and I am being ground by the teeth of wild beasts in order that I may be found [to be] pure bread for Christ. My love has been crucified, and there is in me no fire of material love, but rather a living water, speaking in me and saying within me, ‘Come to the Father.’ I take no pleasure in corruptible food or in the delights of this life. I want the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who is the seed of David; and for drink I want his Blood which is incorruptible love.

His reference to “bread of God” is an allusion to John 6: 33, where Jesus says, “It is not Moses who has given you bread from heaven [manna], but it is my Father who gives you the Bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” The Eucharist was a model for the Christ centered approach of Ignatius since he sees the it as an example of the “undying love of Christ as he feeds us with his Flesh and Blood.” There is no mistaking his tone in his letter to the Church at Smyrna as he speaks of the Gnostics who had a disdain for material reality:

Charity is no concern to them, nor are widows and orphans or the oppressed . . .They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins and which, in his goodness, the Father raised . . .

CONTINUED…
 
CONTINUED…

Back to the issue of the WORD—and the words of the WORD…

John’s gospel consistently brings up the word “word” and consistently reiterates that Jesus’ words have eternal life.

Here is a search for the word “word” in John 6–look how often it says to adhear to His words…

John 1:1
*In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and the WORD was God. *
John 1:14
*And the WORD became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. *
John 2:22
*So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the WORD which Jesus had spoken. *
John 4:39
From that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the WORD of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.”
John 4:41
Many more believed because of His WORD;
John 4:50
Jesus said to him, “Go; your son lives.” The man believed the WORD that Jesus spoke to him and started off.
John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My WORD, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:38
"You do not have His WORD abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
John 8:31
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My WORD, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
John 8:37
"I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My WORD has no place in you.
John 8:43
"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My WORD.

CONTINUED…
 
John 8:51
“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My WORD he will never see death.”
John 8:52
The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, If anyone keeps My **__WORD__**, he will never taste of death.' **John 8:55** and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His **__WORD__**. **John 10:35** "If he called them gods, to whom the **__WORD__** of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), **John 11:3** So the sisters sent **__WORD__** to Him, saying, "Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick." **John 12:38** This was to fulfill the **__WORD__** of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD , WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?" **John 12:48** "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the **__WORD__** I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. **John 14:23** Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My **__WORD__**; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. **John 14:24** "He who does not love Me does not keep My **__WORD__**s; and the **__WORD__** which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me. **John 15:3** "You are already clean because of the **__WORD__** which I have spoken to you. **John 15:20** "Remember the **__WORD__** that I said to you, A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My WORD, they will keep yours also.
John 15:25
"But they have done this to fulfill the WORD that is written in their Law, `THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.’

CONTINUED…
 
John 17:6
"I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your WORD.
John 17:14
"I have given them Your WORD; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
John 17:17
"Sanctify them in the truth; Your WORD is truth.
John 17:20
"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their WORD;
John 18:9
to fulfill the WORD which He spoke, “Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one.”
John 18:32
to fulfill the WORD of Jesus which He spoke, signifying by what kind of death He was about to die.

This is just a cursory search for the word “word”–I’m not even sure if the online program I used is a good one that gives a complete accounting…someone who knows more about such searches may comment… BUT WHAT ABOUT SAYS, OR TELLS, OR TEACHING, OR ?..

Don’t worry Mods…I’m getting to the point…
 
Michael, you say…
Therefore, to say that John 6 refers to an essential event that John believed was necessary for one to partake in for their salvation but John did not include the event that John 6 is referring to is a stretch to say the least (IMHO ). This seems to be a case reading your own theology into the text and not looking to understand John on his own terms.
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…but if, as I am contending here, that John’s focus was on the WORD and His words…In John–where does it specifically say that Jesus has the words that give eternal life? **John 6:68 **"Simon Peter answered him, ‘Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.’"

Remember–the Sacrifice of the Mass was already in practice in the infant Church–the Eucharist was an obvious tenet as shown in the writings of Ignatius. It was a given–John’s focus is on the WORD, and he reminds the Church that the Eucharist is indeed Christ’s flesh and blood and TRUE food—most ESPECIALLY in John 6.
 
I am sorry. I don’t understand your arguement or your conclusion.
 
Hey michaelp–Stone has some similar ideas to yours…what say you we three get together on line at the same time to discuss this?
 
…but if, as I am contending here, that John’s focus was on the WORD and His words…In John–where does it specifically say that Jesus has the words that give eternal life? **John 6:68 **
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"Simon Peter answered him, ‘Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.’"

I agree with you in a way I guess. The focus was Christ, who was the word. But this is the focus of all the Gospels. If you are talking about the message of Christ as being the “word” that is correct as well. But this is the focus of all the Gospels.

The uniqueness to the Gospel of John lies in its esoteric terminology to a certian degree, but this was due to the personality of John as can be seen in 1 2, 3, John, and Rev as well.

I just don’t get how John’s use of the word “word” can excuse the absence of any mention of the Eucharist event in his Gospel if John 6 was meant to refer to that event and John believed that this event was essential for eternal life.
Remember–the Sacrifice of the Mass was already in practice in the infant Church–the Eucharist was an obvious tenet as shown in the writings of Ignatius. It was a given–John’s focus is on the WORD, and he reminds the Church that the Eucharist is indeed Christ’s flesh and blood and TRUE food—most ESPECIALLY in John 6.
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It was already in practice when the other Gospels were written in the 60s since Paul wrote about its usage in Corinth in 55. This is not a good arguement. Plus, belief in Christ for eternal life was already “in practice” in the church at the time when John wrote his Gospel, but it did not stop him from emphasizing it. John, it seems, was writting to an entirely different audience. His gospel was written to unbelievers, not the Church. Therefore, it had to contain all the essential elements of the Gospel.

Notice the “you” in this paragraph must be unbelievers (i.e. those not part of the Church). Therefore, your assumption is not valid either way.

**John 20:30-31 **30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Hope that you are doing well.

Michael
 
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michaelp:
I agree with you in a way I guess. The focus was Christ, who was the word. But this is the focus of all the Gospels. If you are talking about the message of Christ as being the “word” that is correct as well. But this is the focus of all the Gospels.

The uniqueness to the Gospel of John lies in its esoteric terminology to a certian degree, but this was due to the personality of John as can be seen in 1 2, 3, John, and Rev as well.

I just don’t get how John’s use of the word “word” can excuse the absence of any mention of the Eucharist event in his Gospel if John 6 was meant to refer to that event and John believed that this event was essential for eternal life.

It was already in practice when the other Gospels were written in the 60s since Paul wrote about its usage in Corinth in 55. This is not a good arguement. Plus, belief in Christ for eternal life was already “in practice” in the church at the time when John wrote his Gospel, but it did not stop him from emphasizing it. John, it seems, was writting to an entirely different audience. His gospel was written to unbelievers, not the Church. Therefore, it had to contain all the essential elements of the Gospel.

Notice the “you” in this paragraph must be unbelievers (i.e. those not part of the Church). Therefore, your assumption is not valid either way.

**John 20:30-31 **30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Hope that you are doing well.

Michael
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Hello,Michael,go and read and respond to my thread you will enjoy it:) Go here
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=43867
Now he let them walk away because they wouldn’t except what he said and they knew what he was saying;) God Bless
 
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