Why did it take soooo long for God to show up?

[Della]

Some replies to OP:

1. Everyone agrees that hominids arose in Africa.
   There is evidence that one and a half million years ago some migrated out of Africa, along the shores of the Middle East, India, and into Asia, crossing many rivers along the way. This is evidence of high intelligence.
2. Evidence has been found of Aborigines in Australia 200,000 years ago. Look at the map and you can see they had to cross a wide expanse of water between Asia and Australia. They must have used some kind of rafts or boats.
3. Neanderthal man buried their dead fifty thousand years ago. While we don’t know why, it’s likely they had some concept of an afterlife.
4. Who said primitive men ran around killing each other?
   The population of Earth has been estimated at about one million some million years ago. That’s not a lot for the whole world. There was plenty of room for everybody. The was no need to compete for territory. So why would people kill each other? Do gorillas kill each other? No. They are very peaceful. Give them a lot more intelligence and they will still be peaceful, until they’re assaulted by all the evil influences of our modern world like rap music, the Oscars, and Lady Gaga. :egyptian:
5. God makes the rules.
   Let me repeat that: God makes the rules!

Who’s going to argue with Him? :bigyikes:

So with that in mind…
… let me stick my neck out and risk being burned at the stake.

Since God makes the rules, did I say that already? ] he can do anything he wants. Right?
Are you ready for this? ( make sure you kids are out of the room :whacky: )

Maybe Adam and Eve weren’t the first human beings.
Maybe they were just the first two people God put in the state of innocence.
In which case, the Fall applied to all who followed.

What about the people before Adam and Eve? They were just like us.

God reduced Adam and Eve to the fallen state which meant they could repent and be saved after all. This was an act of mercy on God’s part. So creating the earlier people in the fallen state was not unfair. because the fallen state means our intellects and will are weak compared to Adam in the state of innocence, and we can always repent and be saved. .

What happened to the other people besides Adam and Eve? They intermarried with Adam and Eve’s descendants, and their children were heirs to original sin.

---

Do I smell smoke?

If you are proposing polygenism, then you aren’t with the Pope 100%. Church teaching is that Adam and Eve were the first true humans and that all of us are their descendants. No need for any stake for making a mistake. Now, if you are ordering steak, I’ll take mine medium rare.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

empther

What about the people before Adam and Eve? They were just like us.

They were? They were fallen too?

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

empther

What about the people before Adam and Eve? They were just like us.

They were? They were fallen too?

:coffeeread: There were no people before Adam and Eve.

 

[empther]

empther

**What about the people before Adam and Eve? They were just like us.
**
They were? They were fallen too?

No.
Their intellects and wills were weak, unlike Adam and Eve who had full control of their passions before the Fall.

So why did Adam and Eve have the state of innocence before the Fall? To give humanity a chance to keep the state of innocence and avoid all sin, which would have been better. But they messed up.

 

[empther]

If you are proposing polygenism, then you aren’t with the Pope 100%. Church teaching is that Adam and Eve were the first true humans and that all of us are their descendants.

I’d like a link to that document, whatever it is.
Is that exactly what it says? What is the context?

WAIT A MINUTE! I found it myself.

ENCYCLICAL
HUMANI GENERIS
OF THE HOLY FATHER
PIUS XII
August 12, 1950

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html

The word “polygenism” is used only once, in paragraph 37…

1. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, :bigyikes: which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.

“Let us consider what we have actually seen.” --detective Hercule Poirot in *Death on the Nile *by Agatha Christie { the movie, not the book }

Pius XII is worried about the doctrine of original sin. The doctrine says all men have inherited original sin, that is, the fallen state.

An so they have.
The people who lived before Adam were not given the state of innocence in anticipation of Adam’s Fall which God knew from eternity.

In an analogous manner, people who lived before Jesus were saved by Him because the Father anticipated the Incarnation.

---

Is this a heat wave we’re having?

 

[empther]

The people who lived before Adam were not given the state of innocence in anticipation of Adam’s Fall which God knew from eternity.

Consider the alternative.

Adam and Eve’s parents were animals with no souls. How would Adam and Eve feel about this? I wouldn’t like it.

Could God have created Adam and Eve from nothing? Sure, but then we would not have the evolutionary evidence for the rise of man’s body. It would be obvious that Adam and Eve were created by a miracle of God, but then this would make people who reject God ***even more guilty. *** God doesn’t work that way.

Of course, God could have faked the evolutionary evidence, but he doesn’t work either.
More wonderful and glorious to let the nature he created do it.

 

[Gorgias]

:coffeeread: There were no people before Adam and Eve.

True, but you’ll have to define what you mean by “people.” empther’s conjecture is one of the ways that folks are trying to harmonize monogenesis with contemporary science’s notion that all of humanity currently on the planet proceeds from a ‘critical mass’ of no less than 100 persons.

I’m not sure I buy empther’s notion of ‘innocence’ as the critical factor; I would posit that the ‘soul’ is what we’re talking about here. But the notion of a group of physiological ‘humans’, two of which were given souls, is certainly an intriguing one…

(To make the story fit, of course, you have to posit that some interbreeding between the ensouled persons and non-ensouled physiological humans took place, in order to get us to the ‘critical mass’ group of 100 persons – “sons of God and daughters of men”, anyone? – and you have to posit that the remainder of the non-ensouled humans died off. It’s a stretch, but there’s nothing on the face of it that per se impossible…)

 

[zro_x]

True, but you’ll have to define what you mean by “people.” empther’s conjecture is one of the ways that folks are trying to harmonize monogenesis with contemporary science’s notion that all of humanity currently on the planet proceeds from a ‘critical mass’ of no less than 100 persons.

I’m not sure I buy empther’s notion of ‘innocence’ as the critical factor; I would posit that the ‘soul’ is what we’re talking about here. But the notion of a group of physiological ‘humans’, two of which were given souls, is certainly an intriguing one…

(To make the story fit, of course, you have to posit that some interbreeding between the ensouled persons and non-ensouled physiological humans took place, in order to get us to the ‘critical mass’ group of 100 persons – “sons of God and daughters of men”, anyone? – and you have to posit that the remainder of the non-ensouled humans died off. It’s a stretch, but there’s nothing on the face of it that per se impossible…)

Or simply speculate that when a non-ensouled person and an ensouled person mated, it always produced an ensouled child. In that case, the non-ensouled humans would have died out within a few generations, especially since the number of biological people at that time could have fit in a baseball stadium.

 

[Pugsly]

Some replies to OP:

1. Everyone agrees that hominids arose in Africa.
   There is evidence that one and a half million years ago some migrated out of Africa, along the shores of the Middle East, India, and into Asia, crossing many rivers along the way. This is evidence of high intelligence.
2. Evidence has been found of Aborigines in Australia 200,000 years ago. Look at the map and you can see they had to cross a wide expanse of water between Asia and Australia. They must have used some kind of rafts or boats.
3. Neanderthal man buried their dead fifty thousand years ago. While we don’t know why, it’s likely they had some concept of an afterlife.
4. Who said primitive men ran around killing each other?
   The population of Earth has been estimated at about one million some million years ago. That’s not a lot for the whole world. There was plenty of room for everybody. The was no need to compete for territory. So why would people kill each other? Do gorillas kill each other? No. They are very peaceful. Give them a lot more intelligence and they will still be peaceful, until they’re assaulted by all the evil influences of our modern world like rap music, the Oscars, and Lady Gaga. :egyptian:
5. God makes the rules.
   Let me repeat that: God makes the rules!

Who’s going to argue with Him? :bigyikes:

So with that in mind…
… let me stick my neck out and risk being burned at the stake.

Since God makes the rules, did I say that already? ] he can do anything he wants. Right?
Are you ready for this? ( make sure you kids are out of the room :whacky: )

Maybe Adam and Eve weren’t the first human beings.
Maybe they were just the first two people God put in the state of innocence.
In which case, the Fall applied to all who followed.

What about the people before Adam and Eve? They were just like us.

God reduced Adam and Eve to the fallen state which meant they could repent and be saved after all. This was an act of mercy on God’s part. So creating the earlier people in the fallen state was not unfair. because the fallen state means our intellects and will are weak compared to Adam in the state of innocence, and we can always repent and be saved. .

What happened to the other people besides Adam and Eve? They intermarried with Adam and Eve’s descendants, and their children were heirs to original sin.

---

Do I smell smoke?

I think Hominids are animals and Adam and Eve…may have well found themselves roaming amidst them after the Fall…perhaps able to recognize each other by the skins they wore.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

True, but you’ll have to define what you mean by “people.” empther’s conjecture is one of the ways that folks are trying to harmonize monogenesis with contemporary science’s notion that all of humanity currently on the planet proceeds from a ‘critical mass’ of no less than 100 persons.

I’m not sure I buy empther’s notion of ‘innocence’ as the critical factor; I would posit that the ‘soul’ is what we’re talking about here. But the notion of a group of physiological ‘humans’, two of which were given souls, is certainly an intriguing one…

(To make the story fit, of course, you have to posit that some interbreeding between the ensouled persons and non-ensouled physiological humans took place, in order to get us to the ‘critical mass’ group of 100 persons – “sons of God and daughters of men”, anyone? – and you have to posit that the remainder of the non-ensouled humans died off. It’s a stretch, but there’s nothing on the face of it that per se impossible…)

The 100 people thing is only a problem if you don’t count the other intelligent and seemingly ensouled hominids as human. My theory has no such problems (see post 6).

 

[Gorgias]

My theory has no such problems (see post 6).

that’s the post where you mention that you have neandertal DNA?

So, how does a 2 million year old human race solve the problem? If you’re positing a family tree that resolves to two people, then the “100 person” thing is a problem…!

 

[3DOCTORS]

What if the question were framed differently, thus: Why did it take a long time in human history for one group of humans (the Israelites) to figure out what God was doing and to become aware that He was revealing Himself and His works to them in a very special way?

 

[Gorgias]

What if the question were framed differently, thus: Why did it take a long time in human history for one group of humans (the Israelites) to figure out what God was doing and to become aware that He was revealing Himself and His works to them in a very special way?

I think that, in general terms, I would frame the answer up by noting that it’s not about a “group of humans” “figur[ing] out what God was doing”; rather, it was about God picking the right time to make his revelation known in a way that would be able to be shared among all humans.

What I’ve been taught is that historically, the Roman Empire made it possible for (relatively) safe travel throughout a large land mass. Its predecessor (of sorts), the Greeks (in the west, that is), set up an culture in which cultural discourse happened at a central location in each area (town, etc): the agora. Put these two together, then, and the Pax Romana allows for the dissemination of the Gospel at each agora connected by the roads of the Roman Empire.

Why “so long”? Because it took us that long to develop the infrastructure that would allow a theophany to spread and create a ‘critical mass’ of believers…

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

that’s the post where you mention that you have neandertal DNA?

So, how does a 2 million year old human race solve the problem? If you’re positing a family tree that resolves to two people, then the “100 person” thing is a problem…!

The claim is that Homo Sapiens have come from a stock of at least 100 people. I don’t question that at all, but if Homo Habilis are theologically human then that number is about as useful in determining the existence and historical circumstances of Adam and Eve as the number of O’Carrolls who came to the new world in the nineteenth century.

 

[Gorgias]

The claim is that Homo Sapiens have come from a stock of at least 100 people. I don’t question that at all, but if Homo Habilis are theologically human

So… if the “100 people” claim is a “100 Homo sapiens” claim, and you’re claiming Adam and Eve as preceding Homo sapiens, then I understand your point. However, is that what “100 people” is really claiming? I understand it to mean “100 ancestors”, which would make the Homo habilis point moot.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

So… if the “100 people” claim is a “100 Homo sapiens” claim, and you’re claiming Adam and Eve as preceding Homo sapiens, then I understand your point. However, is that what “100 people” is really claiming? I understand it to mean “100 ancestors”, which would make the Homo habilis point moot.

I’ll leave it to those who put the 100 people number up to begin with to provide a source to clarify, but we know so little about that far back that it seems highly unlikely (indeed beyond the pale) that we could know so much about a species we don’t even have DNA for.

 

[BrunoMaria]

Human race is not at all as old as evolutionists make believe and would love it to be to prove evolution as right and creation as wrong.

God the Allmighty when He created first humans, didn’t create a “sample or pattern” but in His likeness in the first place. So, it’s clear that first humans where IN GOD’s LIKENESS and not as these humanoid, evolutionists call humans. We didn’t change in the least.
(Humanoid are apes of relative high intelligence).

But whenever something disturbs our mind, simply trust in God and in His written word the Bible. For we all will see when we see God face to face. Then we’ll slap our forehead and say; OH - OF COURSE SO! How silly of me. Well, we could have known earlier and all the time, for it stood in the Bible!

Yours
Bruno

 

[Alan_J_Smith]

Satan is the ruler of this world!
God was meant to rule this world through human beings
but the first man and woman didn’t listen to God, they were deceived and listened to another
voice and we all became children of another master “don’t you know that you are of your
Father the Devil”. That is why we are all sinners waiting to be reborn into God’s lineage. Human history is the history of God trying to reclaim his sovereignty. God is never far away from us, speaking through our conscience and waiting for us to respond to his words. Not many are listening, stuck in sin, doubt and fear.
What is God waiting for? He is waiting for us to respond to him.

 

[empther]

zro x post 28

Or simply speculate that when a non-ensouled person and an ensouled person mated, it always produced an ensouled child. In that case, the non-ensouled humans would have died out within a few generations, especially since the number of biological people at that time could have fit in a baseball stadium.

I don’t know where you got the phrase “non-ensouled person”. A humanoid being without a soul wouldn’t be a person.

Let’s modify things.
God let evolution bring about very intelligent humanoids, far more intelligent than apes who separated from humanoids long ago on the evolutionary tree and are now no longer related to us.
So now you have something like a hundred thousand very intelligent humanoids in Africa. They can make primitive stone tools. They can use bones to kill small animals. And so on.

But their intelligence is based only on their brains.

So God said: “OK. These humanoids have pretty good intelligence. Let’s give them souls.”
Now the humanoids were real persons with souls.
They were ten times as intelligent as the day before because the soul has intellect far above the brain alone.

Then one day God gave Adam and Eve the state of innocence, that is, full control of their passions, no concupiscence. Since their parents were real persons and not clever animals, Adam and Eve would not be upset by the parentage.

Adam could have kept his state of innocence and all his descendants would have had it too, but he messed up and God in his mercy put him in the Fallen state so he could repent.

Over time, and not that long either, intermarraige would make all human beings Adam’s descendants.

 

[Della]

zro x post 28

I don’t know where you got the phrase “non-ensouled person”. A humanoid being without a soul wouldn’t be a person.

Let’s modify things.
God let evolution bring about very intelligent humanoids, far more intelligent than apes who separated from humanoids long ago on the evolutionary tree and are now no longer related to us.
So now you have something like a hundred thousand very intelligent humanoids in Africa. They can make primitive stone tools. They can use bones to kill small animals. And so on.

But their intelligence is based only on their brains.

So God said: “OK. These humanoids have pretty good intelligence. Let’s give them souls.”
Now the humanoids were real persons with souls.
They were ten times as intelligent as the day before because the soul has intellect far above the brain alone.

Then one day God gave Adam and Eve the state of innocence, that is, full control of their passions, no concupiscence. Since their parents were real persons and not clever animals, Adam and Eve would not be upset by the parentage.

Adam could have kept his state of innocence and all his descendants would have had it too, but he messed up and God in his mercy put him in the Fallen state so he could repent.

Over time, and not that long either, intermarraige would make all human beings Adam’s descendants.

All of which is only speculation not facts. It is best to simply stick to what the Church tells us about our parentage. I’m am convinced that, in time, what God revealed to us will be shown to be the truth, not polygenism of any sort. It is more likely that the descendants of Adam and Eve had to struggle to survive and did so the best they could. Even today we have people who live by subsistance, not by farming or by earning money, and don’t look like typical Europeans, but it doesn’t make them any less human or any less descendants of Adam and Eve. Those branches of humaniods that died out were not Adam and Eve’s descendants and there is reasonable doubt they lived at the same time as modern humans. For my money, the Church’s understanding trumps all other ideas/speculations.