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zro_x
Guest
sorry, I meant to say non-ensouled human.
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Cwoosley
Guest
God does things in His own good time, in His inscrutable wisdom. We lack the intellect to grasp His reasons. A better question for us humans to wrestle with: Why do WE take soooo long to do His will? :doh2:
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Della
Guest
Yes, indeed. Also, as Scripture tells us, to God a thousand years are like a “watch in the night”. IOW, a fleeting moment only. Of course, as an eternal Person there is no time for him, but since we finite humans live within time the difference between how we preceive time and God does is nearly impossible to explain.
To answer the OP, God knew when and how to reveal himself to man. That’s all we really need to know.
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3DOCTORS
Guest
Good points!
@empther - that’s really intriguing too, what you have to say!
Some who follow my posts might know I’m working on a science-fiction speculation about an alien race that maintained its innocence long after becoming intelligent, and even starfaring (their Fall occurs when they visit Earth!
). So I always come away from these threads with lots of food for thought! 
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Inego_de_Loyola
Guest
I. The image and likeness of God refers to our spiritual souls and not to our physical body.
II. Please don’t make this a discussion of evolution, or the thread will be closed.
III. Please don’t get this thread closed.
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Della
Guest
Have you read C. S. Lewis’ Space Trilogy: Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength? I think you’d get a lot out of them. Keep on writing. We need good, inspirational material to offset the muck that’s out there today.Good points!
@empther - that’s really intriguing too, what you have to say!
Some who follow my posts might know I’m working on a science-fiction speculation about an alien race that maintained its innocence long after becoming intelligent, and even starfaring (their Fall occurs when they visit Earth!
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Gorgias
Guest
If you’ll notice, this post from zrox is in response to my post, in which I said “you’ll have to define what you mean by ‘person’…”
So, yeah – by ‘person’, you mean ensouled physiologically human being.This is problematic, though. With this construction, you have human persons (i.e., ensouled beings) who live and die without being in the fallen state. In other words, this construction means that not all humans have original sin. In this way, then, you pass the test of monogenism, but you fail the test of original sin. Both need to hold in order for the speculation to be at least plausible.
By your construction (and mine, too), it’s not sufficient to say that intermarriage necessarily makes all subsequent humans also persons. It has to be posited, since it isn’t necessary. This is one of the contingencies required by the speculation.
(Moreover, it seems to me – and we can debate this point – that the intermarriage must be the means by which humanity (i.e., personhood, by your definition) is transmitted: in that way, then, non-intermarried humans aren’t persons, and the offspring of intermarriages are (by definition) persons. In your construction, intermarried spouses are already persons (who, by your definition, are not affected by original sin).)
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3DOCTORS
Guest
There are some sticking points here. :sad_yes: It gets really hard to p(name removed by moderator)oint the nature of the mystery of the unity of the human body and soul. The soul is infused by God rather than via the DNA, yet without the DNA, there would be nothing for God to infuse a soul into! It sure is mind boggling.If you’ll notice, this post from zrox is in response to my post, in which I said “you’ll have to define what you mean by ‘person’…”
This is problematic, though. With this construction, you have human persons (i.e., ensouled beings) who live and die without being in the fallen state. In other words, this construction means that not all humans have original sin. In this way, then, you pass the test of monogenism, but you fail the test of original sin. Both need to hold in order for the speculation to be at least plausible.
By your construction (and mine, too), it’s not sufficient to say that intermarriage necessarily makes all subsequent humans also persons. It has to be posited, since it isn’t necessary. This is one of the contingencies required by the speculation.
(Moreover, it seems to me – and we can debate this point – that the intermarriage must be the means by which humanity (i.e., personhood, by your definition) is transmitted: in that way, then, non-intermarried humans aren’t persons, and the offspring of intermarriages are (by definition) persons. In your construction, intermarried spouses are already persons (who, by your definition, are not affected by original sin).)
@ Della - Oh, yes, I have read the Space Trilogy - actually read them after I began my writing since I’d missed out on them before and thought since it was a similar theme I’d better be familiar with them. I love those books! :yup: Lewis was such a wise man.
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Azygos
Guest
Please watch this video. Skip to the 6 Minute Mark to get to the Meat where he talks about the Population and Mathematics. Are you ready to be shocked?
youtube.com/watch?v=4tbRzV8Ti0Q
youtube.com/watch?v=4tbRzV8Ti0Q
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Azygos
Guest
Evolution is not even science. Science essentially means facts/knowledge gained through observation and experimentation. They have no ‘real’ evidence that we evolved and I would even posit it is anti-science. They must deny that 2nd law of thermodynamics so that they can claim things are evolving up instead of down. They must deny reason… For example, you cannot give what you do not have. I do not have a million dollars to give you so I cannot give you a million dollars. Take this reasoning and put it into practical usage and we could not have evolved. Even if there was a bowl of soup that contained life… If this bowl of soup does not have intelligence, reason, and morality to give us then it didn’t give it to us. Science and reason tell us intelligence cannot spawn out of matter either. This has never been observed nor can it be proven. Reason tells us it is impossible. Intelligence begets intelligence. Evolution is anti-God, Anti-Science, and Anti-Reason.
Here is a link that explodes their so called hominid evidences…
Please skip to the 9 minute mark…
youtube.com/watch?v=OYv7OBChS4E
Here is a link that explodes their so called hominid evidences…
Please skip to the 9 minute mark…
youtube.com/watch?v=OYv7OBChS4E
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Inego_de_Loyola
Guest
Please leave evolution out of this! The mods WILL lock, if not delete, the thread, and I would like to continue the discussion.
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Azygos
Guest
Everyone is talking about Evolution like it’s a fact…
Please stop trying to silence me.
If we are not supposed to talk about evolution then everyone on this thread is just as guilty as I am.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
IF you believe in God you won’t have any problem accepting the answer I give. God, because he is all knowing and all powerful, would find it an easy matter to run through His Infinite Mind all the possible timings for everything He would do. Because He is all loving and all good, all we can know is that He selected the most perfect of times to create Adam and Eve, and to speak to Abraham. From the story of the Garden of Eden, it seems He did not postpone talking with Adam and Eve, but struck up a relationship with them from the start, since they were adult male and female from their beginning, at least from the time he breathed a human soul into them. Whether they got to that point from evolution or from instantaneous creation is another story, which we do not have the answer to, at least, not yet.Hey,
This question bothers me a lot: We know now that the human race is between 100’000-200’000 years old. Why did it take SOOOO LONG for God to show up and finally speak with Adam and Eve or Abraham? Why did he just watch for 10’000s of years how humans kill each other without knowing Him? And why doesn’t the bible explain all that?
Thanks
source
pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/humans/humankind/o.html
britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/275670/human-evolution
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomically_modern_humans
genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Press_files/2011_Gibbons_New_View.pdf
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Inego_de_Loyola
Guest
No one is debating for or against evolution, which is what is forbidden by the forum rules. Please don’t get this thread closed. It is permissible to discuss theories about the origin of man which assume evolution or it’s absence, but not to debate it’s existence or lack thereof. This rule was put in place because people have not been able to keep their cool while discussing it in the past.
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Azygos
Guest
You are the only person losing your cool about it. If you don’t want to debate then you don’t have to respond to my post. I put the information out there it is up to the people who are interested in the Truth to accept or reject it.
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Aloysium
Guest
let me jump to what i see as the important question: Why doesn’t the bible explain all that?
imho, it is because it doesn’t matter with respect to explaining that:
we were made by God
as body and spiritual soul
we were made to commune with Him
but we fell
eventually we were redeemed through the cross
it is good that those questions bother you; the conflict in world-views helps break the cognitive trap that we create when we reduce everything to what we already know.
Scripture and the teachings of the Church assist us in the journey, whose ultimate fulfillment is found in God, the living Truth, the Truth which contains all truth and by which all is known.
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Inego_de_Loyola
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I. I haven’t lost my cool.
II. My concern is that the thread will be closed as have others like it.
III. You have already provided an example of the inability to discuss this charitably in your post where you accused me of trying to silence you.
IV. it is unfair to those of us who are trying to have a conversation for people to come in and make posts that violate forum rules.
V. If you insist on violating the forums rules on this subject, at least make your own thread to do it in.
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Azygos
Guest
I was speaking truthfully when I said you want to silence me.
You do want me to be silent about evolution, correct?
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JamesCaruso
Guest
Please point to the rules inf you know exactly where they are so we can all be sure to conform to them. Anyone who does not conform to the rules, should be banned from the forum, but that is of course the moderator’s decision. At least, if everyone sees the rule, we know that it is no mistake if the offending posts continue. Meanwhile, I am looking for them. but I have a bit of trouble navigation around the board. Thank you for making me aware of the rule.
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Inego_de_Loyola
Guest
No, but I would like you to discuss it in an acceptable venue. It is against forum rules so ideally discuss it somewhere else; you might try Christian forums. If you must discuss it here then at least do it on your own thread so that you aren’t taking us all down with you.
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