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otrrl
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Yes, when God made the covenant with Abraham, God said that his descendants would be enslaved – but why?
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therese1998
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Someone with more theological study than me may chime in here, but until then:
It is my understanding that reason for the enslavement of the Israeli people had more to do with their foreign status and Egypt’s need for slave labor. When Joseph gained the Pharaoh’s esteem and was, literally, “second in command” in the land. By association, the Jews in Egypt were not harmed. When the Pharaoh died, however, he was replaced by a different Pharaoh and that one ruled until he was replaced and so on. Eventually, Joseph and all the people alive during his time who knew the respect and protection the original Pharaoh put on the Jews were gone and, with it, the respect and protection. Although we know them to be the People of God, there numbers were small enough for them to be easily over-taken but large enough to make a nice contribution to the building of the temples and other slave labor required to make ancient Egypt run.
Was this a punishment from God? Was it a punishment from God because the Jews had sinned but needed to be pure in order to be in relationship with Him? Maybe, maybe not but there was also a more “human nature” aspect to the story, as well.
Hope this helps.
It is my understanding that reason for the enslavement of the Israeli people had more to do with their foreign status and Egypt’s need for slave labor. When Joseph gained the Pharaoh’s esteem and was, literally, “second in command” in the land. By association, the Jews in Egypt were not harmed. When the Pharaoh died, however, he was replaced by a different Pharaoh and that one ruled until he was replaced and so on. Eventually, Joseph and all the people alive during his time who knew the respect and protection the original Pharaoh put on the Jews were gone and, with it, the respect and protection. Although we know them to be the People of God, there numbers were small enough for them to be easily over-taken but large enough to make a nice contribution to the building of the temples and other slave labor required to make ancient Egypt run.
Was this a punishment from God? Was it a punishment from God because the Jews had sinned but needed to be pure in order to be in relationship with Him? Maybe, maybe not but there was also a more “human nature” aspect to the story, as well.
Hope this helps.
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mythbuster1
Guest
The Torah does make clear that the generation that came out of Egypt had been corrupted by a multitude of Egyptian practices. It would hardly surprise me that that was part of the reason they were enslaved.
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therese1998
Guest
Absolutely. But why were the people of Israel, specifically, enslaved?
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mythbuster1
Guest
Exodus 1 says that Pharaoh feared their military strength, likely because Israelites did not practice contraception like the Egyptians did. In the span of 215 years, Israel went from an extended family of 70 to a nation numbering in the millions.
NFP?Israelites did not practice contraception like the Egyptians did.
spoiler.[/spoiler]
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mythbuster1
Guest
No, large families.
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Psalms62
Guest
What a good question!!Absolutely. But why were the people of Israel, specifically, enslaved?
Let’s bring in the text:
And He said to him, ‘I am the Lord, who brought you forth from Ur of the Chaldees, to give you this land to inherit it.’ And he said, ‘O Lord God, how will I know that I will inherit it?’ And He said to him, ‘Take for Me three heifers and three goats and three rams, and a turtle dove and a young bird.’ And he took for Him all these, and he divided them in the middle, and he placed each part opposite its mate, but he did not divide the birds… . And He said to Abram, ‘You shall surely know that your seed will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and they will enslave them and oppress them, for four hundred years .” (Bereshiet 15:7-13)
It can be argued that the Covenant with Abraham remains - but that pre-dates the Covenant through Moses. The “Old Covenant” that is replaced with the New is the Covenant with Moses, not the Covenant with Abraham. Moreover, the Covenant with Abraham was undertaken with an individual, not with a nation. (This is one opinion about this verse…and, it is not my own opinion. But truthful.) I felt it needed to be posted…
Your question is “why were the Israelites enslaved for 400 years” and then freed afterwards? One has to wonder about the story or chapter on Joseph and his brothers. If Joseph didn’t parade the coat Jacob made for him, none of this would have taken place! Jealousy is awful especially among family members. One parent favor’s one child over the others! There is a paragraph toward the very end that sums up the entire event.
"So shall you say to Joseph, ‘Forgive, I urge you, the offense and guilt of your brothers who treated you so harshly.’ Therefore, please forgive the offense of the servants of the God of your father.” And Joseph was in tears as they spoke to him.
His brothers went to him themselves, flung themselves before him, and said, “We are prepared to be your slaves."
But Joseph said to them, “Have no fear! Am I a substitute for God?
Besides, although you intended me harm, God intended it for good, so as to bring about the present result—the survival of many people."
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Psalms62
Guest
It’s interesting that the word “halakhah” means “go” or “walk.” And, the term for the Christians in the bible are called, at the beginning, the name was “the Way” (Acts 9:2; 19:9;" - or to follow).
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Psalms62
Guest
In the Covenant of parts, or pieces, Abraham was given a vision or dream about the future of the Israelites or his children. Yet, many years later, Jacob tries to tell his children about Abraham’s vision but is stopped (as some would tell it) by the angels. (See Daniel 2:34).
"The second issue that must be clarified is it possible to know when the End of Days will be?
“A day of retribution is in My heart” (Isaiah 63:4) as follows: “to My heart I have revealed it, but not to My limbs” ( Sanhedrin 97a). The term “ My limbs ” is a metaphor for the angels. How could Jacob have access to information which was hidden even from the angels?” Calculating the End of Days
When at the end of days, as to compare to the beginnings of creation - Bereshith, God commands. So, when God made the world and Adam and all who have come from him, He first prepared the judgment and the things that pertain to the judgment. Seem like everything comes in stages.
If Joseph didn’t land up in Egypt, the Jewish people would never have received the law and we would be never have established the kingship (Messiah - Mashiach; Aramaic).
So, Joseph’s verbiage toward his brother comes to light in many ways, “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as …”
"The second issue that must be clarified is it possible to know when the End of Days will be?
“A day of retribution is in My heart” (Isaiah 63:4) as follows: “to My heart I have revealed it, but not to My limbs” ( Sanhedrin 97a). The term “ My limbs ” is a metaphor for the angels. How could Jacob have access to information which was hidden even from the angels?” Calculating the End of Days
When at the end of days, as to compare to the beginnings of creation - Bereshith, God commands. So, when God made the world and Adam and all who have come from him, He first prepared the judgment and the things that pertain to the judgment. Seem like everything comes in stages.
If Joseph didn’t land up in Egypt, the Jewish people would never have received the law and we would be never have established the kingship (Messiah - Mashiach; Aramaic).
So, Joseph’s verbiage toward his brother comes to light in many ways, “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as …”
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TK421
Guest
In the book of 2nd Maccabees, a severe persecution broke out to conform the Jews to the Greek religion and way of life. A Jewish mother and her seven sons refused to eat pork or acknowledge Zeus. The mother was eventually tortured and killed, but was first forced to watch her seven sons tortured to death, from oldest to youngest. Before dying, the response of the youngest son was this (paraphrased):Yes, when God made the covenant with Abraham, God said that his descendants would be enslaved – but why?
God permits the pagans to be left alone for a long time so that their inequity can reach its peak before judgment comes to them. To the Jews, he intervenes beforehand and punishes them immediately, so that they can be sanctified and made holy.
The mother confirmed her last sons words and praised God before being killed herself.
The slavery in Egypt, the wandering in the desert, and the purging of the Holy Land were all part of their sanctification.
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Psalms62
Guest
Would that apply in today’s world?God permits the pagans to be left alone for a long time so that their inequity can reach its peak
“During a severe famine Jacob and his children and grandchildren migrate to Egypt. They leave Canaan behind, the land which God had promised them as their permanent inheritance. Their fate will be now forged in a strange land, amidst a people who will turn from welcoming hosts into a nation of oppressors. It is at this point of change that the Book of Exodus begins it will tell of the fashioning of Israel, the people of God’s choice, the nation that God needs.”
It is at this point, like creation - the beginnings, that God chooses a people for himself. After calling out to Abram, God continues to say to him (Genesis 12:2-3) that He will make Abram into a great nation, He will bless him, and make his name great.
the book of 2nd Maccabees and Exodus, are totally different from each other. Exodus is a story of enslavement and liberation, of revelation and wanderings, of belief and apostasy; it is the repository of fundamental laws and of the rules governing national worship.
It is important to see the book as a continuation of Genesis, as a tale of beginnings and of God‘s disappointments (see “Introducing Genesis”). After many trials and disillusionments, God chooses a particular people whom in time to come He will make His allies and helpers. He selects Abraham and Sarah as the ancestors of this nation‑to‑be, and the rest of Genesis is the story of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacoband their families who will be the physical and spiritual forebears of the people Israel.
Reference: The Book of Exodus
Reference: “Why Did G-d Choose Abraham?”
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Psalms62
Guest
Going out of Egypt perhaps but within journey (itself) the Israelite’s, through God’s help in each step - with Moses and the elders, they learned how to return back to God.The Torah does make clear that the generation that came out of Egypt had been corrupted by a multitude of Egyptian practices. It would hardly surprise me that that was part of the reason they were enslaved.
Deuteronomy 29
9 Carefully follow the terms of this covenant, so that you may prosper in everything you do. 10 All of you are standing today in the presence of the Lord your God—your leaders and chief men, your elders and officials, and all the other men of Israel, 11 together with your children and your wives, and the foreigners living in your camps who chop your wood and carry your water. 12 You are standing here in order to enter into a covenant with the Lord your God, a covenant the Lord is making with you this day and sealing with an oath, 13 to confirm you this day as his people, that he may be your God as he promised you and as he swore to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 14 I am making this covenant, with its oath, not only with you 15 who are standing here with us today in the presence of the Lord our God but also with those who are not here today.
16 You yourselves know how we lived in Egypt and how we passed through the countries on the way here. 17 You saw among them their detestable images and idols of wood and stone, of silver and gold. 18 Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the Lord our God to go and worship the gods of those nations; make sure there is no root among you that produces such bitter poison.
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Psalms62
Guest
No, absolutely not. What about Joseph and his brothers? Joseph’s brothers sold him to Midianites who in turn sell him to an Ishmaelite caravan heading down to Egypt. Then the brothers tear up Joseph’s special coat, dip it in goat’s blood, and present it to Jacob as proof of his son’s death. When the brother reunite and settle in the land of Egypt they become too numerous and Pharaoh decides he will enslave them - :Was this a punishment from God? Was it a punishment from God because the Jews had sinned but needed to be pure in order to be in relationship with Him? Maybe, maybe not but there was also a more “human nature” aspect to the story, as well.
8 Then a new king, to whom Joseph meant nothing, came to power in Egypt. 9 “Look,” he said to his people, “the Israelites have become far too numerous for us. 10 Come, we must deal shrewdly with them or they will become even more numerous and, if war breaks out, will join our enemies, fight against us and leave the country.”
Where is the sin? Moses makes a comment in Deuteronomy (a slight comment) saying " You yourselves know how we lived in Egypt and how we passed through the countries on the way here. 17 You saw among them their detestable images and idols of wood and stone, of silver and gold." The law goes into further detail about idolatry.
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Mintaka
Guest
Let’s bring in a little outside info.
Once upon a time, a lot of Middle Eastern folks with advanced chariots and cool swords invaded or mass-migrated into Egypt, and their leaders took over as pharaohs. They were called the “Hyksos” in Egyptian records. Some Egyptians got along with them, some didn’t.
(There were also a bunch of independent Canaanite rulers of the Eastern Nile delta, before the Hyksos came in. And later on, there were the Sea Peoples invasions, which I always confuse with the Hyksos.)
After a few generations, some of the Egyptian folks who were allegedly descended from the old pharaohs, and who lived farther south, ended up raising a rebel army (or a loyalist Egyptian restoration army, if you asked them). They won, and the Hyksos kings lost.
Instantly, it became a lot less healthy and prestigious to be a person of non-Egyptian descent who lived in Egypt. (Which had some interesting ancient diplomatic consequences.)
Best guess of some Egyptologists (or at least it was, a while back) is that Joseph was working for one of the earlier Canaanite or Hyksos pharaohs, and that’s part of why he did so well – and why everybody in his family stayed down in Egypt. (Might also be a reason why the Israelites found Egyptian worship a bit attractive – they were dealing with a version adapted to Middle Eastern heritage and taste.)
But when the new dynasty came in, the Israelites were just a troublesome bunch of descendants of furriners, and probably loyal to the old dead Hyksos pharaohs, too. So they got mistreated, dropped in status, and eventually were made slaves.
(The Hyksos connection would also explain the thing about the Israelites seeming like such a military threat. They didn’t have the cool chariots and swords and horde, but they looked just like the guys who did.)
Oh, and the Jewish historian Josephus apparently signed onto the Hyksos idea, and he got his info from the now-lost work of the Egyptian historian Manetho. Justin Martyr quotes some other now-lost ancient historians about Moses and the Exodus, in connection to this.
So it’s not a new idea.
(There are several good historical novels focusing on Ahmose I and his campaigns against the Hyksos capital of Egypt. Andre Norton’s YA novel, Shadow Hawk, focuses a lot on Ahmose’s archery skills (his mummified body was built like a really strong archer, so it’s not just a wall painting propaganda thing). I’m still kicking myself for not buying the original Shadow Hawk cover painting when I had a chance. (Why? Whyyyy?) Also Pauline Gedge has a really good series about Ahmose called Lord of the Two Lands.)
Once upon a time, a lot of Middle Eastern folks with advanced chariots and cool swords invaded or mass-migrated into Egypt, and their leaders took over as pharaohs. They were called the “Hyksos” in Egyptian records. Some Egyptians got along with them, some didn’t.
(There were also a bunch of independent Canaanite rulers of the Eastern Nile delta, before the Hyksos came in. And later on, there were the Sea Peoples invasions, which I always confuse with the Hyksos.)
After a few generations, some of the Egyptian folks who were allegedly descended from the old pharaohs, and who lived farther south, ended up raising a rebel army (or a loyalist Egyptian restoration army, if you asked them). They won, and the Hyksos kings lost.
Instantly, it became a lot less healthy and prestigious to be a person of non-Egyptian descent who lived in Egypt. (Which had some interesting ancient diplomatic consequences.)
Best guess of some Egyptologists (or at least it was, a while back) is that Joseph was working for one of the earlier Canaanite or Hyksos pharaohs, and that’s part of why he did so well – and why everybody in his family stayed down in Egypt. (Might also be a reason why the Israelites found Egyptian worship a bit attractive – they were dealing with a version adapted to Middle Eastern heritage and taste.)
But when the new dynasty came in, the Israelites were just a troublesome bunch of descendants of furriners, and probably loyal to the old dead Hyksos pharaohs, too. So they got mistreated, dropped in status, and eventually were made slaves.
(The Hyksos connection would also explain the thing about the Israelites seeming like such a military threat. They didn’t have the cool chariots and swords and horde, but they looked just like the guys who did.)
Oh, and the Jewish historian Josephus apparently signed onto the Hyksos idea, and he got his info from the now-lost work of the Egyptian historian Manetho. Justin Martyr quotes some other now-lost ancient historians about Moses and the Exodus, in connection to this.
So it’s not a new idea.
(There are several good historical novels focusing on Ahmose I and his campaigns against the Hyksos capital of Egypt. Andre Norton’s YA novel, Shadow Hawk, focuses a lot on Ahmose’s archery skills (his mummified body was built like a really strong archer, so it’s not just a wall painting propaganda thing). I’m still kicking myself for not buying the original Shadow Hawk cover painting when I had a chance. (Why? Whyyyy?) Also Pauline Gedge has a really good series about Ahmose called Lord of the Two Lands.)
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otrrl
Guest
when I started this topic, I really didn’t have an opinion why God led Jacob and company down to Egypt where they would be enslaved.
I’ve been reading Bergsma and Pitre’s Catholic Introduction to the Bible: Old Testament. I don’t think it directly answers the question. But I sort of see the trend that when God makes a covenant with His people, there is a period of testing that seems to naturally follows. A couple hundred years of slavery is an awfully long period of testing, ya betcha, to see if the people will be faithful to the covenant.
Then, too, the delivery from slavery and bondage would be God demonstrating His own faithfulness to His promises. You have to read all the way through to Joshua to see the promises to the patriarchs of Israel fulfilled.
I’ve been reading Bergsma and Pitre’s Catholic Introduction to the Bible: Old Testament. I don’t think it directly answers the question. But I sort of see the trend that when God makes a covenant with His people, there is a period of testing that seems to naturally follows. A couple hundred years of slavery is an awfully long period of testing, ya betcha, to see if the people will be faithful to the covenant.
Then, too, the delivery from slavery and bondage would be God demonstrating His own faithfulness to His promises. You have to read all the way through to Joshua to see the promises to the patriarchs of Israel fulfilled.
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Psalms62
Guest
And so,… the section below on the Exodus must be connected within your understanding:
We all know the famous story and the elaborate Midrashim concerning the birth of Moshe. Pharaoh had instructed the midwives to kill all the Jewish male children. The midwives kept a careful record of the pregnant Jewish women so that they could come at the predicted time of birth and murder the children. According to tradition, Moshe was born, miraculously, after six months, and survived. That is why his mother was able to hide him for three months. Every day, the Egyptians would come to the house of Moshe’s parents, Amram and Yocheved, to look for the child. When Yocheved could no longer hide the child, she constructed an ark of bullrush, covered it with pitch outside, and placed it on the river, leaving Moshe’s sister, Miriam, to watch. According to the Midrash, G-d caused a great heat wave to strike Egypt, and all of the people went down to bathe in the river. When the daughter of Pharaoh, who had also gone down to the river, beheld the ark floating in the water, she instructed her maidens to bring the ark to her, adding that perhaps there is a child who can be saved.
We all know the famous story and the elaborate Midrashim concerning the birth of Moshe. Pharaoh had instructed the midwives to kill all the Jewish male children. The midwives kept a careful record of the pregnant Jewish women so that they could come at the predicted time of birth and murder the children. According to tradition, Moshe was born, miraculously, after six months, and survived. That is why his mother was able to hide him for three months. Every day, the Egyptians would come to the house of Moshe’s parents, Amram and Yocheved, to look for the child. When Yocheved could no longer hide the child, she constructed an ark of bullrush, covered it with pitch outside, and placed it on the river, leaving Moshe’s sister, Miriam, to watch. According to the Midrash, G-d caused a great heat wave to strike Egypt, and all of the people went down to bathe in the river. When the daughter of Pharaoh, who had also gone down to the river, beheld the ark floating in the water, she instructed her maidens to bring the ark to her, adding that perhaps there is a child who can be saved.
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Psalms62
Guest
God promised Abraham a homeland and so the journey began. Each generation added to the promise with the same faith of Abraham, it was considered righteousness. See Hebrews 11, “Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.” Each step of the way God assures “each” patriarch that “He will be with them on their journey” starting with Abraham (Genesis) through to the Exodus. However, with Moses- he needed some convincing.when I started this topic, I really didn’t have an opinion why God led Jacob and company down to Egypt where they would be enslaved.
The LORD said to him, “Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD? Now go; I will help you speak and will teach you what to say.” But Moses said, “O Lord, please send someone else to do it.”
At first, we read the verse in Genesis at the time Abraham spoke with God regarding the promise of a child and his descendants,
“I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of it.”
In the story of Jacob, " Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear 21 so that I return safely to my father’s household, then the Lord will be my God and this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God’s house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth.”… see Deuteronomy 29 - Past Favor Recalled
Next, and in the same words in the Decalogue/commandment, “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.” Amazingly and, many years later, in the book of Matthew, we recall the same message, " I called my son Israel out of Egypt, “Out of Egypt I called my son” here the verse refers to God hiding Jesus away in Egypt to avoid Herod’s decree and then calling him back from Egypt when Herod is dead.
So, each step leads to the redemption or the 2nd coming…the journey doesn’t end! Again, what echoes in the back drop, " As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people[a] should be kept alive, as they are today."
We don’t know the reasoning’s of God
[Matthew 24:22]…(Matthew 24:22 If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.)
And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened."
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mythbuster1
Guest
And, of course, that is why they returned to bondage when they did turn aside from the Covenant. Judges should serve as a warning to us about the importance of passing our faith onto our children.
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Psalms62
Guest
The promise and the journey begins with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In Genesis or continuation of the promise then proceeds with Joseph which then leads to Moses and Exodus and the law (Torah) which is transmitted to the people These laws were not received by “two” individuals (Adam & Eve). Small note: There were two given commandments at the time of Creation. The first law was given to both Adam & Eve (and said to them) verses the 2nd law, that was commanded to Adam (God commanded man) - The cycle of sinning and redemption begins. The “Law”, while in the Garden of Eden, stated Genesis 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. (and the other law) 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”And, of course, that is why they returned to bondage when they did turn aside from the Covenant. Judges should serve as a warning to us about the importance of passing our faith onto our children.
Just refreshing the picture. Next, after receiving the law, the Israelites were finally allowed to enter the land promised to their fathers. Promise made - the next, as you’ve pointed out, was the book of Judges which then leads to a King - or as pointed out, depicts the life of Israel in the Promised Land—from the death of Joshua to the rise of the monarchy. Which then leads to the Book of Samuel - bypassing the Book of Ruth, even though we know that this leads to future Messiah (Melekh Mashiach - - The Messiah is often referred to as “King Messiah”) I had used the term “Melekh” for a reason - Messenger! Hebrew mal’akh (מַלְאָךְ) is the standard word for “messenger”, both human and divine.
So I might receive some feedback on that term. Point being on this post, each step is leading to the redemption and toward the Messiah (King).
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