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catholic-rcia
Guest
This is a posting for the LDS who may be at this forum. I would like to discuss this with you.
utahmission.com/pages/Jesus_Dwell.html
God Bless
utahmission.com/pages/Jesus_Dwell.html
God Bless
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Rachel_Malloy
Guest
Why don’t you offer your opinions or ideas on this article to get things started.
Rachel
Rachel
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catholic-rcia
Guest
“According to Scotus, God’s first intention—from all eternity—was that human nature be glorified by being united to the divine Word. And this was to happen regardless of the first humans’ innocence or sinfulness. To say that the Incarnation of Christ was an afterthought of God, dependent on Adam’s fall, would be to base the rich Christian theology of incarnation on sin!”
I feel that those in the LDS faith have been delivered a hard blow when it comes to their understanding of the fall of our first parents. Out of their interpretation comes forth the very reason why we should have chosen to stay in the garden, the fall is seen throughout what they teach to be good things. Something that they themselves can overcome, but they can’t and this is where the devil finds his delight. In watching them try, while being denied the key of Trinity, the source (Christ) of their salvation.
I feel that those in the LDS faith have been delivered a hard blow when it comes to their understanding of the fall of our first parents. Out of their interpretation comes forth the very reason why we should have chosen to stay in the garden, the fall is seen throughout what they teach to be good things. Something that they themselves can overcome, but they can’t and this is where the devil finds his delight. In watching them try, while being denied the key of Trinity, the source (Christ) of their salvation.
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Casen
Guest
You’re not characterizing LDS theology correctly. Our teachings are, for the most part, in agreement with the link you posted. Yes, God obviously knew Adam and Eve would disobey Him and yes, Jesus was foreordained from the “beginning” to come to the earth and atone for the sins of the world, not as an afterthought but as part of God’s divine plan. This is our belief. But you seem to be under the impression that LDS theology does not accept Christ’s divinity or atonement, which is clearly not the case. A five minute trip to the official LDS Church website should clear this up for you.
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majick275
Guest
I’m going to have to disagree here. While on the surface LDS theology appears to accept Jesus divinity and atonement, The definitions are different. The very nature of Deity is completely different when comparing Catholic to LDS doctrine. So is that of the atonement. I would question the foreordination as well.
LDS doctrine tells us that we are not “entirely” created by God. We have always existed as “intelligences” and were then “born” as “spirit children” to God. The relevance here is that in the LDS “council in heaven” our relationship to God is intirely different than what Catholics believe. It is one of eternal beings looking to another etrnal being who has taken on the role of parent. Beings of the same “species” if you will but of different developmental stages. LDS doctrine states that the “plan of salvation” in which Jesus would atone for sin was subjected to “common consent”. (put to a vote)
Furthermore, LDS dcotrine teaches that Jesus was only the “firstborn” of the Father. Our older brother literally. He had to take on a mortal body in order to achieve his own progression to the next state of exaltation. This is radically different than what is taught in the Catholic church.
This is taught in the LDS Temples as something that has occured before and it is easy to see from the teachings of LDS “prophets” that it is something they believe will continue to occur in an endless “eternal progression”.
Contrast this with the Catholic view that there has always been only one God ever and that he has always been God. He created us and came to earth in the person of Jesus Christ and died on the cross to atone for our sins with his blood. (as opposed to the LDS belief in the atonement for sin in the gardenb of gethsemane)
This was a once and forever act that could only be performed by God and was for his creations. The beatific vision being the ultimate end reward for those who believe in him. No literal fathering of humans by God, no growing up to be Gods in the next life. The fall of Adam and Eve was a bad thing.
LDS doctrine tells us that we are not “entirely” created by God. We have always existed as “intelligences” and were then “born” as “spirit children” to God. The relevance here is that in the LDS “council in heaven” our relationship to God is intirely different than what Catholics believe. It is one of eternal beings looking to another etrnal being who has taken on the role of parent. Beings of the same “species” if you will but of different developmental stages. LDS doctrine states that the “plan of salvation” in which Jesus would atone for sin was subjected to “common consent”. (put to a vote)
Furthermore, LDS dcotrine teaches that Jesus was only the “firstborn” of the Father. Our older brother literally. He had to take on a mortal body in order to achieve his own progression to the next state of exaltation. This is radically different than what is taught in the Catholic church.
This is taught in the LDS Temples as something that has occured before and it is easy to see from the teachings of LDS “prophets” that it is something they believe will continue to occur in an endless “eternal progression”.
Contrast this with the Catholic view that there has always been only one God ever and that he has always been God. He created us and came to earth in the person of Jesus Christ and died on the cross to atone for our sins with his blood. (as opposed to the LDS belief in the atonement for sin in the gardenb of gethsemane)
This was a once and forever act that could only be performed by God and was for his creations. The beatific vision being the ultimate end reward for those who believe in him. No literal fathering of humans by God, no growing up to be Gods in the next life. The fall of Adam and Eve was a bad thing.
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catholic-rcia
Guest
QUOTE=majick275]I’m going to have to disagree here. While on the surface LDS theology appears to accept Jesus divinity and atonement, The definitions are different. The very nature of Deity is completely different when comparing Catholic to LDS doctrine. So is that of the atonement. I would question the foreordination as well.
Complete agreement on this end.
Casen, you wrote: “go to the Official LDS site and you will learn what we believe in five minutes”
Is this an honest statement Casen?
This site is set up to look like a traditional Christian site, a traditional Christian Church. It is only an invitational site to present a little milk before the meat. It took me 36 years to move from the milk, to the meat, then to the Catholic Church.
Five minutes? Can you see a little bit of deception here? I was oncetold by a prominent Mormon that he had learned about all other Churches and concluded that the LDS church was true. When I asked him about the Holy Mass he admittedly new nothing. This was his approach as to converting another. It is deceptive is it not? Whom in this world deceives others?
Here is what Christianity sees as eternal progression Casen: This progression includes every single one of us. Outside of the Garden we became lost and we die, in Christ we are brought back home. The lesson learned is this: We won’t ever leave again. We know WHAT God told us to be true, what Satan offered to be false, and we have come to reject it through the Passion of Christ.
The Parable of the Prodigal Son in the Gospel of Luke is familiar to all of us, as we are all in need of our savior. The Prodigal son has the nerve to ask for his inheritance even before his father has died. Then without thought or good Conscience he goes out and spends every last penny on those things that only the world could offer. Not until he is confronted with hopeless failure and a deep despair, does he yearn to return home, to his fathers embrace.
Repentant and willing to do anything possible to win back his father’s love he begins his journey back home. . . as he approaches his home to his surprise his father comes running towards him with open arms.
He embraces his son, glad that his son has returned home to him, and giving no mind to what he has done or what he has failed to do. Its a breathtaking story of God’s mercy for all of us, God’s patient grace, and His willingness to welcome each of us home into His loving and forgiving arms forever.
** "For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.**
Complete agreement on this end.
Casen, you wrote: “go to the Official LDS site and you will learn what we believe in five minutes”
Is this an honest statement Casen?
This site is set up to look like a traditional Christian site, a traditional Christian Church. It is only an invitational site to present a little milk before the meat. It took me 36 years to move from the milk, to the meat, then to the Catholic Church.
Five minutes? Can you see a little bit of deception here? I was oncetold by a prominent Mormon that he had learned about all other Churches and concluded that the LDS church was true. When I asked him about the Holy Mass he admittedly new nothing. This was his approach as to converting another. It is deceptive is it not? Whom in this world deceives others?
Here is what Christianity sees as eternal progression Casen: This progression includes every single one of us. Outside of the Garden we became lost and we die, in Christ we are brought back home. The lesson learned is this: We won’t ever leave again. We know WHAT God told us to be true, what Satan offered to be false, and we have come to reject it through the Passion of Christ.
The Parable of the Prodigal Son in the Gospel of Luke is familiar to all of us, as we are all in need of our savior. The Prodigal son has the nerve to ask for his inheritance even before his father has died. Then without thought or good Conscience he goes out and spends every last penny on those things that only the world could offer. Not until he is confronted with hopeless failure and a deep despair, does he yearn to return home, to his fathers embrace.
Repentant and willing to do anything possible to win back his father’s love he begins his journey back home. . . as he approaches his home to his surprise his father comes running towards him with open arms.
He embraces his son, glad that his son has returned home to him, and giving no mind to what he has done or what he has failed to do. Its a breathtaking story of God’s mercy for all of us, God’s patient grace, and His willingness to welcome each of us home into His loving and forgiving arms forever.
** "For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.**
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donbjc
Guest
I went to Sacrament and Sunday School, yesterday with my wife who is LDS. In the Gospel Doctrine class they are starting the study of the New Testament, having studied the Book of Mormon last year. So they started with Genesis and explained that Jesus Christ is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. They further explained that Jesus Christ is the God of this world, therefore it is correct to refer to him as God. God the Father(His Father) is the God of the universe and together, with the Holy Spirit, they created Earth and placed man upon it. They knew that Adam and Eve would sin, because that is the nature of man. Thus they planned for God(Jesus Christ) to come to earth as a man, and be cruicified to atone for the sins of all mankind(those who had lived to that point, including Adam and Eve and those who would be born from that point on) It was an excellent class and made a lot of sense to me. I would say it is much more understandable than what I have been taught in the Catholic Church. They believe that Jesus freely gave His life to save all mankind from sin, and that it was planned from the creation. They believe that we are all literal children of God the Father, and it is our purpose on earth to follow the commandments, perform the ordinances that can only be performed on earth(such as baptism). I know this sounds looney to Catholics, but it is starting to make more sense to me than the Catholic 3 in 1 version of God. It just is more believable and clear.
I am still going to Mass every week and paying my donations, which have increased greatly to keep up with my wife’s 10%. I feel ashamed that up until I married her, God was lucky to get $2.00 per week. Now, I try to pay at least 5%, I still think the tithing thing is a bit much, but it works for the Mormons. Their buildings and Temples are completely paid for before they break ground, there are no mortgages on their buildings. They are obviously doing something right. Anyway, off subject there. Just my 2 cents worth. From the limited understanding I have as a Catholic attending LDS services. Don
I am still going to Mass every week and paying my donations, which have increased greatly to keep up with my wife’s 10%. I feel ashamed that up until I married her, God was lucky to get $2.00 per week. Now, I try to pay at least 5%, I still think the tithing thing is a bit much, but it works for the Mormons. Their buildings and Temples are completely paid for before they break ground, there are no mortgages on their buildings. They are obviously doing something right. Anyway, off subject there. Just my 2 cents worth. From the limited understanding I have as a Catholic attending LDS services. Don
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catsrus
Guest
I have just read your postings on the “Resources for talking with mormons” thread.
You claim to be Catholic but you spend more time being an apologist for mormonism than in sharing your Catholic faith.
Since you are finding mormonism so much “more understandable” than what you were taught in The Catholic Church, you may consider that you would benefit from a deeper catachesis. Invite a priest, a deacon or a well grounded Catholic to dinner and ask for clarification on Catholic Doctrine that you do not seem to understand.
If we do not understand our own faith tradition, who is at fault? We are! If you find your faith dying on the vine, you’d better water and fertilize it. If you don’t feel the presence of God, who moved?
I agree that mormons are some of the nicest people I’ve known, but that is no excuse for buying into a skewed theology and spending so much of your time in their religious tradition.
You are allowing yourself to be led away and only you yourself can put a stop to that by delving into your own faith and understanding it.
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donbjc
Guest
But, I do feel the presence of God, very deeply and spent my early life in a Catholic orphanage, and as an alter boy.
It is with God’s help that I have survived the past 3 years of becoming paralyzed and fighting my way back from this nightmare of ill health. He has given me the strength and willpower to keep fighting the battle, and a good wife to support me and help me through it.
I can still see the validity of the LDS viewpoint, although I believe in my Catholic religion completely.
I am not buying into anything, I am just allowing another point of view, which seems very logical to me. When you live with a Mormon, you have to get along and we accept each other’s beliefs and answer each other’s questions. We pray together, (to the same GOD)read scripture together and see a lot of common values in each of our religions. Many times the Catholic Church teaches the same gospel, on the same week that the LDS church teaches the same thing.
When exchanging ideas I believe it is OK to accept another religions views, without embracing those views as your own.
There are many questions I have about the Catholic religion, as well as the LDS religion and the Mormons seem to have more answers, that make sense to me. I have talked to priests and monsignors, and retired priests, they are much too busy for dinner.
Thanks for your view, I do appreciate it and take it into consideration, Don
It is with God’s help that I have survived the past 3 years of becoming paralyzed and fighting my way back from this nightmare of ill health. He has given me the strength and willpower to keep fighting the battle, and a good wife to support me and help me through it.
I can still see the validity of the LDS viewpoint, although I believe in my Catholic religion completely.
I am not buying into anything, I am just allowing another point of view, which seems very logical to me. When you live with a Mormon, you have to get along and we accept each other’s beliefs and answer each other’s questions. We pray together, (to the same GOD)read scripture together and see a lot of common values in each of our religions. Many times the Catholic Church teaches the same gospel, on the same week that the LDS church teaches the same thing.
When exchanging ideas I believe it is OK to accept another religions views, without embracing those views as your own.
There are many questions I have about the Catholic religion, as well as the LDS religion and the Mormons seem to have more answers, that make sense to me. I have talked to priests and monsignors, and retired priests, they are much too busy for dinner.
Thanks for your view, I do appreciate it and take it into consideration, Don
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LDSGuy
Guest
if you feel the call to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, then by all means, do as much research as you can into our Church, and then take those steps.
Your comment “we pray together, to the same GOD” will probably draw many comments. It does seem logical to question whether Latter Day Saints worship the same God as traditional Christians. We have 2 different views of the nature of God. As Latter Day Saints, we believe that our view of God is the true and original one. Catholics believe that the Trinitarian view is the true and original one. Therefore, at least from a logical, absolutist POV, we cannot be worshipping the same being.
Your comment “we pray together, to the same GOD” will probably draw many comments. It does seem logical to question whether Latter Day Saints worship the same God as traditional Christians. We have 2 different views of the nature of God. As Latter Day Saints, we believe that our view of God is the true and original one. Catholics believe that the Trinitarian view is the true and original one. Therefore, at least from a logical, absolutist POV, we cannot be worshipping the same being.
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donbjc
Guest
Until, I saw the postings here, I felt He was the same God. To me there is only one God, but there are different interpretations of the form God takes. The Catholic view of God is a little more difficult to comprehend, but it is the same God, because there is only one. If Catholics in this forum want to say there are two, then that is their understanding of Him. I prefer to know the One God and to understand him as one for all Christian religions, no matter the individual spin put on the form he takes, He is still only One God.
It doesn’t really matter if an atheist says there is no god. We know there is, so it is a matter of religious or non-religious viewpoint, and a matter of faith. What I believe or my wife believes does not change the fact of God’s existence to the believer. As a Catholic you may say there is a Catholic God and an LDS God, but there is still only One God.
As far as feeling the call the the LDS church, I don’t think I do right now. I am a faithful Catholic, and find it interesting to study the differences. My wife has also learned about the Catholic religion, we try to balance and be fair in our discussions, so we never get heated(hardly ever) She would never want me to be a Mormon unless I really had a testimony of the truth, at this point I do not and do not foresee it happening soon.
Don
It doesn’t really matter if an atheist says there is no god. We know there is, so it is a matter of religious or non-religious viewpoint, and a matter of faith. What I believe or my wife believes does not change the fact of God’s existence to the believer. As a Catholic you may say there is a Catholic God and an LDS God, but there is still only One God.
As far as feeling the call the the LDS church, I don’t think I do right now. I am a faithful Catholic, and find it interesting to study the differences. My wife has also learned about the Catholic religion, we try to balance and be fair in our discussions, so we never get heated(hardly ever) She would never want me to be a Mormon unless I really had a testimony of the truth, at this point I do not and do not foresee it happening soon.
Don
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donbjc
Guest
We are way off topic. Didn’t Jesus come to atone for our sins?
That is what LDS believe and that is what I as a Catholic believe. He sacrificed His life for all mankind. I believe that all Christians recognize and believe in the atonement. The Garden of Gethsemene was only part of the suffering and the sacrifice. The Crucifixion was the final act of the atonement. He suffered bled and died for all of us. He loves all of us as we love our own children, only more. Would we not sacrifice our lives to save our children? That is what God did he paid the ultimate price, a sinless ransom for our sake.
If I am wrong, please correct me, this is out of my memory and feelings, not a book, so my understanding of the atonement is strictly mine, as I believe I was taught by the Catholic Church with a little bit of Don thrown in.
Don
That is what LDS believe and that is what I as a Catholic believe. He sacrificed His life for all mankind. I believe that all Christians recognize and believe in the atonement. The Garden of Gethsemene was only part of the suffering and the sacrifice. The Crucifixion was the final act of the atonement. He suffered bled and died for all of us. He loves all of us as we love our own children, only more. Would we not sacrifice our lives to save our children? That is what God did he paid the ultimate price, a sinless ransom for our sake.
If I am wrong, please correct me, this is out of my memory and feelings, not a book, so my understanding of the atonement is strictly mine, as I believe I was taught by the Catholic Church with a little bit of Don thrown in.
Don
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