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kdganey1991
Guest
Why, exactly?
Why did Jesus cry out: My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me? just before He died?
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Evan
Guest
He was citing Psalm 22 by it’s first line (a common practice). It is a Psalm of suffering that ends in triumph and praise:
All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD;
All the families of nations
will bow low before him.
For kingship belongs to the LORD,
the ruler over the nations.
All who sleep in the earth
will bow low before God;
All who have gone down into the dust
will kneel in homage.
And I will live for the LORD;
my descendants will serve you.
**
The generation to come will be told of the Lord,
that they may proclaim to a people yet unborn
the deliverance you have brought.**
All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD;
All the families of nations
will bow low before him.
For kingship belongs to the LORD,
the ruler over the nations.
All who sleep in the earth
will bow low before God;
All who have gone down into the dust
will kneel in homage.
And I will live for the LORD;
my descendants will serve you.
**
The generation to come will be told of the Lord,
that they may proclaim to a people yet unborn
the deliverance you have brought.**
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promethius
Guest
This. Chapter and verse numbering is a relatively new invention that did not exist when Jesus was on incarnate on earth. As such, the jews would refer someone to a particular section within a scripture by stating the first line.
As Evan noted, the psalm referenced by Christ reveals that Christ was NEVER forsaken by God. Rather, this would have highlighted to the scribes, pharisees, and sanhedron that even though they ridiculed Him as abandoned because He was dying, He was NOT in fact forsaken, but rather fulfilling the prophecy of psalm 22 and bringing about the glorious triumph of God.
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marty1818
Guest
Here’s a good article about it:
ncregister.com/blog/pat-archbold/my-god-my-god.-why-hast-thou-left-the-gun-and-taken-the-canoli/
ncregister.com/blog/pat-archbold/my-god-my-god.-why-hast-thou-left-the-gun-and-taken-the-canoli/
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PJM
Guest
We MUST kkep in mind that Jesus alone has TWO full and complete natures:
He was, Is and always shall be God
He became Incarnate man; “like us in every way but sin”.
God is Spirit and Truthy [John 4:23-24] But Jesus ALONE is BOTh Spirit and Truth and Human.
God can neither die or be killed so it was the Human nature of Jesus that suffered death on the Cross.
However this passage is to be understood that in Doing “The Will of the Father” Jesus HAD TO suffer and die; **and therefore it is in this PRECISE and restricted sense that Jesus in His human nature call’s out to God. **It ONLY Means that God was and is ALWAY’s In Control; and that that God PERMITTED this to His human nature; BUT His Devine Nature alway’s remained in charge and present TO Jesus.
God Bless,
Pat
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in_servitude
Guest
If you say…
I’ve heard my Protestant friends teach that Jesus was feeling bad for having God withdraw from him. That is not, however, the case as I understand it.
- Our Father…
- Hail Mary…
- Bless us oh Lord…
- Hail Holy Queen…
I’ve heard my Protestant friends teach that Jesus was feeling bad for having God withdraw from him. That is not, however, the case as I understand it.
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promethius
Guest
Yes, unfortunately this is a common heresy
That heresy being that Jesus took on all the world’s sin, not just the punishment of sin, and since sin is incompatible with God, that God withdrew from Jesus at the time… that this statement was one of a human being who for the first time was “without God”. The problem here being that Jesus’ natures are inseperable, and that this portrays Jesus as nothing more than a human being possessed by God, whom God could withdraw from at any time… in other words, it is a subtle denial of the doctrine of the Trinity…
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TimothyH
Guest
I used to take this position, that Jesus was God and therefor it was impossible for God to withdraw from him. Clearly this cannot happen. God could not more withdraw from Jesus than we could withdraw from our own selves. Jesus is fully God and fully man and those are inseperable.
But in his humanity, Jesus clearly felt the full range of human emotion. He even went so far as to weep when his friend Lazarus died, even though he knew that he was going to raise him from the dead in a few moments. Jesus despairs in the garden to the point of sweating blood as his passion was about to begin, even though he knew he could summon 12 legions of angels and would rise from the dead.
As was pointed out to me on these threads some time ago, I don’t think it is unreasonable to think that Jesus felt the desolation of the cross, and in feeling that desolation he cried out to his Heavenly Father.
-Tim-
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in_servitude
Guest
Do you then discount the Psalm 22 reference? Just curious…
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promethius
Guest
You’re missing what I was saying, so I think we’re talking past each other. The heresy which I was taught when I was forced to attend protestant denominations as a youth… Many protestants sects do not teach that Jesus felt desolation… that much would be understandable at least. They teach that He felt cut off from the Father (not heresy), and more, that He WAS cut off from the Father (heresy), and EVEN WORSE, that He was cut off from the Father because He was covered in Sin (heresy which renders Christ an insufficient sacrifice).
This heresy is a far cry different from saying “Christ felt desolation”… it is utter denial of the sufficiency of the Paschal sacrifice…
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EricFilmer
Guest
I agree with Evan and promethius. Jesus wants people to think of Psalm 22 when they contemplate his crucifixion. On Good Friday the Son asks the Father why he is abandoned, and the Father (in essence) answers the question on Easter Sunday (i.e., the Resurrection, which is the ultimate fulfillment of the last section of Psalm 22, shows that the Son was never actually forsaken). For example, in verse 24 we read, “For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; and he has not hid his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him.”
I think that it is also worth noting that in addition to Psalm 22 being an expression of deliverance after a period of suffering, in the middle of the psalm we see a prophecy concerning the Crucifixion of Christ:
[16] Yea, dogs are round about me;
a company of evildoers encircle me;
they have pierced my hands and feet –
[17] I can count all my bones –
they stare and gloat over me;
[18] they divide my garments among them,
and for my raiment they cast lots.
For example, this section of Psalm 22 is read at all Passion/Palm Sunday Masses.
As has been indicated in this thread, Jesus’ statement from the cross was to direct people in considering his crucifixion in light of Psalm 22, and the richness of that Psalm can allow one to draw different (and appropriate) levels of meaning.
For example, I think that Jesus’ statement of the cross can also reflect on the fact that sin not only causes suffering, but also loneliness. When we choose to sin, we likewise choose to exile ourselves from God. Although God does not truly forsake us, on an emotional level we may experience the emptiness of our souls and feel (even if unfairly) that God has abandoned us. After all, apparently this sort of experience is what prompted the Psalmist to write Psalm 22 in the first place. He starts off with an expression of feeling abandoned by God, but ends with the acknowledgment that through God comes deliverance (and therefore by the end of the psalm, the Psalmist is obviously no longer feeling abandoned).
When Jesus chose to take the sins of humanity upon himself, he likewise chose to embrace the totality of the human loneliness that I mentioned, and Jesus’ quotation from Psalm 22 could represent a desire to express this (among, as we have pointed out, other intentions).
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promethius
Guest
Edited: Christ never took on our actual sin, but rather the spiritual punishment for our sin. He was the lamb without blemish throughout the entire crucifixion.
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TimothyH
Guest
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TimothyH
Guest
Understood. Thank you for clarifying. Yes, I was talking past you - a polite way to put it.
-Tim-
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promethius
Guest
No worries, happens to me all the time! Forums are an easy place to miss nuances of posts!Understood. Thank you for clarifying. Yes, I was talking past you - a polite way to put it.
-Tim-
Peace be with you, friend!
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EricFilmer
Guest
Well, my statement doesn’t necessarily indicate otherwise. I guess it depends on how one interprets it. I was basically paraphrasing certain passages in the Bible, such as…
“Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.” (Isaiah 53:4, RSV)
“He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree,
that we might die to sin and live to righteousness.” (1Peter 2:24, RSV)
But to clarify the matter in terms of what I meant to say, I will simply quote from the Catholic Legate’s Catholic Atonement:
“Essentially, when we say that Jesus ‘took our sins onto Himself’ or that He ‘became sin’, all that we mean is that the sinless New Adam united Himself to our sinful humanity in a very real but mysterious way. Yet, this by no means implies that He Himself became guilty of sin – whether our sins of a sin of His own.”
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TimothyH
Guest
To add to Promethius’ post, Jesus also took on the punishment required by the old covenant.
See, I have today set before you life and good, death and evil. If you obey the commandments of the LORD, your God, which I am giving you today, loving the LORD, your God, and walking in his ways, and keeping his commandments, statutes and ordinances, you will live and grow numerous, and the LORD, your God, will bless you in the land you are entering to possess. If, however, your heart turns away and you do not obey, but are led astray and bow down to other gods and serve them, I tell you today that you will certainly perish; you will not have a long life on the land which you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess. I call heaven and earth today to witness against you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live, (Deuteronomy 30:15-19)
Moses laid out the rights and responsibilities under the old covenant. Failure to uphold your part of the covenant agreement meant death. Death was a strict requirement for violation of the covenant rules.
This is why God, in his mercy, gave animal sacrifice to Israel. The the priest and the sinner who violated the covenant would both lay their hand on the animal and transfer the sin to the animal, and then slaughter it. This satisfied the requirements of the covenant, or so the Israelites thought.
In his letter to the Hebrews, Paul argues that the fact that the animal sacrifices were ongoing, and the fact that the high priest has to offer blood in the Holy of Holies year after year, is an indicaiton that the sacrifices are not effective. Paul shows that Jesus’ sacrifice “Once for all” is the only effective sacrifice. We know, of course, that animal sacrifice and temple worship would stop with the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, thereby proving Paul’s point.
Jesus takes on the covenant punishment, the punishment of death for voilation of the covenant, the death that the Israelites should have been subject to.
-Tim-
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promethius
Guest
Thank you for the detailed clarification! I figured you were probably taking this approach, I just wanted to be clear for others who might read such statements and not be aware of the sort of hyperbolic speech used predominantly in its illustrative sense.
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EricFilmer
Guest
Yes, that sort of thing can, indeed, happen (as we’ve all seen many times in CAF), so your vigilance in this matter is both prudent and appreciated.Thank you for the detailed clarification! I figured you were probably taking this approach, I just wanted to be clear for others who might read such statements and not be aware of the sort of hyperbolic speech used predominantly in its illustrative sense.
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