Why did Jesus die?

[grannymh]

Grannymh,

You propose the Satisfaction Theory, usually associated with Anselm. This has problems, but has replaced largely the ransom theory advocated by PoliceVerso.

I have not proposed the Satisfaction Theory per se because I do not have complete information. I have read about the ransom theory on CAF and discovered that some explanations omit intellective free choice which comes with the spiritual soul given by God.

But God if he wanted to could have simply forgiven Adam and Eve. The satisfaction was not a necessity.

This is precisely why I have not proposed the Satisfaction theory. What exactly is satisfaction? Please explain the details regarding who, how, what, why, and results.
Thank you.

The original condition of God and man was not restored.

What is the original condition of God and man? As far as I know, the condition of God is Divine and the condition of man is human. That “condition” was never changed. Or has it?

 

[grannymh]

Of course I still ponder it all. But the death of Jesus was necessary in so far as he was fully human to share in our life and suffering. But execution, a result of the darkness of his time and culture. His message was too bright for them but he let it shine anyway out of love for those who could welcome it.

But “forgiveness of sins” I scriptural and attributed to Jesus himself. That is the part we need to focus on. I think it has to do with us forgiving each other and ourselves more than appeasing God and moving him to forgive us. Perhaps all the theories of atonement have a share in the truth.

This is always a good subject to meditate.

I keep looking for “Original Sin” (Genesis 2: 15-17) as the reason Jesus had to die in order to conquer death physical and spiritual. Do you have any thoughts about Original Sin?

 

[NoelFitz]

Michael Mayo and all who participated,

thank you all for replies.

I have problems, among them it seems some theories have several names, so I am not sure what is referred to.

Also I am out of my depth theologically.

However first of all I want to thank CA for the sound, courteous and Catholic answers I received.

The job for me now is to study and meditate on replies in CA.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I keep looking for “Original Sin” (Genesis 2: 15-17) as the reason Jesus had to die in order to conquer death physical and spiritual. Do you have any thoughts about Original Sin?

CCC tells us (with my Bolding):

397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of. All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.

Jesus showed us the power and necessity of trust all the way to the cross, into death and resurrection. That is our path to divinization in accordance with God. That and obedience. Jesus often spoke of obedience and even he "learned obedience by the things which he suffered: Hebrews 5:8 He showed us what and how to obey. He inspires us and gives us the motivation and strength to trust and obey. He obeyed his mission to proclaim and that inevitable led to the cross because of our darkness and sin.

Did he Have to did that way? It seems the most poignant example of trust and obedience demanding a response from us to accept or reject his Lordship. God did not require it. We did.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

Yes! 12 of them, according to Revelation 21:12…

Good one.

 

[mdcpensive1]

Jesus died because of justice. There was serious offenses against God who is all GOOD and that had to be obviated or atoned for if justice is to take place. Jesus’s death and passion was a sacrifice to the Father that was to be greater than all the sins committed in the past and in the future. He did this as a dual nature person so He could transcend the gap between the human and the supernatural. This gift of self giving was accepted by the Father. How do we know this ? It is because Christ rose from the dead. Otherwise if the offering of His life was not acceptable we and Christ would not have a resurrection.

Justice has been met, atonement made and the offering of sacrifice has been done which gives the treasury of merit for all.

 

[thistle]

Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected on the third day to save us humans from our sins.

Jesus is alive, since Jesus is unlimited, and not limited to time and space, like us humans.

Actually he died and rose to redeem us, not save us. By redeeming us he gave us the opportunity to be saved by cooperating with his grace.

 

[fred_conty]

William of Saint Thierry, abbot

He loved us first

Truly you alone are the Lord. Your dominion is our salvation, for to serve you is nothing else but to be saved by you! O Lord, salvation is your gift and your blessing is upon your people; what else is your salvation but receiving from you the gift of loving you or being loved by you? That, Lord, is why you willed that the Son at your right hand, the One whom you made strong for yourself, should be called Jesus, that is to say, Savior, for he will save his pople from their sins, and there is no other in whom there is salvation. He taught us to love him by first loving us, even to death on the cross. By loving us and holding us so dear, he stirred us to love him who had first loved us to the end.

And this is clearly the reason: you first loved us so that we might love you–not because you needed our love, but because we could not be what you created us to be, except by loving you.

In many ways and on various occasions you spoke to our fathers through the prophets. Now in these last days you have spoken to us in the Son, your Word; by him the heavens were established and all their powers came to be by the breath of his mouth.

For you to speak thus in your Son was to bring out in the light of day how much and in what way you loved us, for you did not spare your own Son but delivered him up for us all. He also loved us and gave himself up for us. This, Lord, is your Word to us, this is your all-powerful message: while all things were in midnight silence (that is, were in the depths of error), he came from his royal throne, the stern conqueror of error and the gentle apostle of love.

Everything he did and everything he said on earth, even enduring the insults, the spitting, the buffeting–the cross and the grave–all of this was actually you speaking to us in your Son, appealing to us by your love and stirring up our love for you.

You know that this disposition could not be forced on our hearts, my God, since you created us; it must rather be elicited. And this, for the further reason that there is no freedom where there is compulsion, and where freedom is lacking, so too is righteousness.

You wanted us to love you, then, we who could not with justice have been saved had we not loved you, nor could we have loved you except by your gift. So, Lord, as the apostle of your love tells us, and as we have already said, you first loved us: you are first to love all those who love you.

Thus we hold you dear by the affection you have implanted in us. You are the one supremely good and ultimate goodness. Your love is your goodness, the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son! From the beginning of creation it was he who hovered over the waters–that is, over the wavering minds of us all, offering himself to all, drawing all things to himself. By his inspiration and holy breath, by keeping us from harm and providing for our needs, he unites God to us and us to God.

 

[CeelosDeznos]

A grand-daughter (aged 5) is upset by the crucifixion of Jesus and wants to know why he died. There are two principal theories, either he died to pay satisfaction to God for the insult to God’s honor by the sin of Adam or to buy us back from the devil who owned us, as we were sold by Adam’s sin. I find neither of these satisfactory, so I really do not know why Jesus died. Please help.

One of the many reasons Jesus’ died on the Cross (and as you can tell from the answers below that there are more than just one), is that God wanted to share fully in human nature so that we in turn “may come to share in the divine nature.”–2 Peter 1:4.

As humans we go through things that are often difficult and even frightening, such as suffering and death.

We often experience moments where we feel rejected by people, even God.

Some people suffer with horrible infirmaties and with great pain throughout their lives. Others are subject to injustice and even torture.

God in the Person of Jesus shared in all of this on the Cross. God did not merely want to share the best of human experience. God wanted to share with us, with you and me, all of what makes up the human experience, including the bad we must face.

God lived a human life so we can share in God’s divine life. It was no so much that God required literal blood to be spilled in order to set some literal scales of justice in balance. Those are but metaphors to explain the great value of our redemption from the horrors of sin and death. By sharing in even the most painful and isolated experiences of humanity, God raised them to the experience of his own Nature, so, as 2 Peter states, we may one day share in God’s.

When we unjustly suffer, when people don’t believe in us, when we get rejected by friends and loved ones, when pain is the only feeling we have, when we feel forsaken by God, and when we have to face death, a journey we must take alone, we are not really alone. God went through all these experiences so that God could be with us when we experience them.

By sharing in human life, God makes humans share in his life. And by sharing in God’s life we live eternally, freed from all the horrible experiences that have once left a blot on the human experience, erased now forever through the blood of Christ.

 

[petra22]

One of the many reasons Jesus’ died on the Cross (and as you can tell from the answers below that there are more than just one), is that God wanted to share fully in human nature so that we in turn “may come to share in the divine nature.”–2 Peter 1:4.

As humans we go through things that are often difficult and even frightening, such as suffering and death.

We often experience moments where we feel rejected by people, even God.

Some people suffer with horrible infirmaties and with great pain throughout their lives. Others are subject to injustice and even torture.

God in the Person of Jesus shared in all of this on the Cross. God did not merely want to share the best of human experience. God wanted to share with us, with you and me, all of what makes up the human experience, including the bad we must face.

God lived a human life so we can share in God’s divine life. It was no so much that God required literal blood to be spilled in order to set some literal scales of justice in balance. Those are but metaphors to explain the great value of our redemption from the horrors of sin and death. By sharing in even the most painful and isolated experiences of humanity, God raised them to the experience of his own Nature, so, as 2 Peter states, we may one day share in God’s.

When we unjustly suffer, when people don’t believe in us, when we get rejected by friends and loved ones, when pain is the only feeling we have, when we feel forsaken by God, and when we have to face death, a journey we must take alone, we are not really alone. God went through all these experiences so that God could be with us when we experience them.

By sharing in human life, God makes humans share in his life. And by sharing in God’s life we live eternally, freed from all the horrible experiences that have once left a blot on the human experience, erased now forever through the blood of Christ.

To me all of this was very comforting and insightful. Thanks, doesn’t it make you (and me) feel great to know God loves us so much??? WOW!

 

[jochoa]

A grand-daughter (aged 5) is upset by the crucifixion of Jesus and wants to know why he died.

Here is the response I gave my 5-year old:
Jesus died to show us how to do God’s will (Love: patience and kindness), no matter how cruel, mean or difficult the day may treat us.
Since your grand-daughter is upset, I would add the following:
“God does not want you to ever be upset. If you will change your ways and copy the patience and kindness Jesus demonstrated in his crucifixion, you never have to experience the distress that comes from confusion.”
And if she has the attention-span for it:
“Jesus was also somewhat “confused” with the calling to die on the cross, and he didn’t initially want to embrace dying on the cross, but he trusted God, and has forever changed the world for the better! I pray you do the same.”

May the peace and joy of Christ be with you always!

 

[NoelFitz]

I am very grateful to all who replied so sincerely. Unfortunately I still cannot grasp why Jesus died, perhaps due to what used to be called ‘invincible ignorance’. At times one has to admit that great is the mystery of our religion and we cannot know the mind of the Lord.

God is not bound by laws, there is no law preventing him freely forgiving us without satisfaction being paid.

Thus there is no law insisting that God to show his love had to suffer death as a human.

In the Lord’s Prayer we claim we forgive freely those who offend us, and we ask God to do the same. He could have if he wanted to, without insisting on the death of Jesus.

 

[jochoa]

God is not bound by laws, there is no law preventing him freely forgiving us without satisfaction being paid.

Thus there is no law insisting that God to show his love had to suffer death as a human.

In the Lord’s Prayer we claim we forgive freely those who offend us, and we ask God to do the same. He could have if he wanted to, without insisting on the death of Jesus.

Yes, he can forgive us, but forgiving us does not change our behavior. Changing free-willed behavior requires repentance and learning on behalf of the sinner. Learning, aside from the Immaculate Conception who is perfectly obedient to the Word/message, requires a teacher to demonstrate the way of Unconditional Love. Being patient and kind, amid cruelty to the point of death, is the means to true life for all, and Jesus had to demonstrate this to all of us who do not listen as well as the Immaculate Conception.

 

[Spelf]

It was explained to me thus:

God is both infinitely merciful and infinitely just. Original sin, disobedience to Him, was a sin eternal and infinite in scope due to the eternal and infinite nature of the offended party. It would be unjust to simply “poof” a sin so grave, but it would be unmerciful to not forgive it. In addition, due to the eternal and infinite nature of the sin, it could not be normally atoned for by mankind, again, because of the nature of the offended. Thus, from the moment of the fall of man, God set about the course of history for the redemption of man and the salvation of souls.

Jesus Christ, as both fully man and fully God, threads the needle in this situation and fits all sides. As fully man, his sacrifice is for the benefit of man, though he himself did not sin. As fully eternal God, the ransom for the sin was sufficient. Thus, by his sacrifice, Christ died for the expiation of sin and for the fulfillment of mankind.

For a little background, of course we look to the Old Testament to find examples of God demanding of man various sacrifices in either atonement or in worship and obedience. The sacrifice of the temple is the most obvious example, but the sacrifice of Isaac is the clearest analogue.

 

[petra22]

I am very grateful to all who replied so sincerely. Unfortunately I still cannot grasp why Jesus died, perhaps due to what used to be called ‘invincible ignorance’. At times one has to admit that great is the mystery of our religion and we cannot know the mind of the Lord.

God is not bound by laws, there is no law preventing him freely forgiving us without satisfaction being paid.

Thus there is no law insisting that God to show his love had to suffer death as a human.

In the Lord’s Prayer we claim we forgive freely those who offend us, and we ask God to do the same. He could have if he wanted to, without insisting on the death of Jesus.

Maybe you are trying to make it too complicated… At the time of Jesus there was a split in the Jewish hierarchy. Resurrection (life after death) or NOT. Jesus came to show us there is Resurrection and ETERNAL life with God, our FATHER. Jesus said it and showed it and said pick up your cross (life’s evils) and come follow me… he had to die to show us. Sadly people still don’t believe it…

 

[grannymh]

I am very grateful to all who replied so sincerely. Unfortunately I still cannot grasp why Jesus died, perhaps due to what used to be called ‘invincible ignorance’. At times one has to admit that great is the mystery of our religion and we cannot know the mind of the Lord.

God is not bound by laws, there is no law preventing him freely forgiving us without satisfaction being paid.

Thus there is no law insisting that God to show his love had to suffer death as a human.

In the Lord’s Prayer we claim we forgive freely those who offend us, and we ask God to do the same. He could have if he wanted to, without insisting on the death of Jesus.

The Catholic information that is being overlooked is

1. God as Creator exists
2. The first created human being on earth is not Divine

People who do not start with these two absolute truths will never grasp the actual true absolute reason why Jesus freely died bloody on His chosen cross.

It is possible that there is more human stubbornness than there is real Catholic ignorance. Original Sin loses its mystery once a person is brave enough to accept the truth in full, nothing left out. The death of Jesus loses its mystery once a person is brave enough to accept the truth in full, nothing left out.

 

[Trichakra]

God wants us to love him in return for His love.

I don’t think god wanna something from us.

 

[petra22]

I think God gave us free will for a reason. He gave Moses the 10 commandments. He wants us to be good. Maybe not for him, but for ourselves and for our neighbors…

 

[grannymh]

I think God gave us free will for a reason. He gave Moses the 10 commandments. He wants us to be good. Maybe not for him, but for ourselves and for our neighbors…

The basic reason for free will is that it enables us to choose a personal friendship relationship with our Creator. We first learn this from Genesis 1: 27.

Being in the image of the Pure Spirit Creator God refers to the fact that we have a spiritual soul which gives us the capability to know God, love God, and serve God in the sense that we follow the One God and remain faithful to Him. Subsequently, we reach joy eternal in His heavenly presence following our bodily death.

 

[petra22]

I see what you mean… it (our free will) is for HIM—that we know, love and serve HIM in this world… the first three commandments are also for HIM!