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KAL_EL
Guest
Could God have made himself, Jesus, clear of original sin? I understand that Mary was born without original sin but why wouldn’t God do it for himself? And did Mary have to be baptized? 
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Jon_Paul
Guest
The answers are simple. 
Jesus was never in a state of Original Sin, the Church doesn’t teach that. Jesus couldn’t have ever, for a moment, been under the bondage of sin. He was perfect.
And yes Mary was baptised, as baptism is necessary for salvation. Baptism doesn’t only wash away Original Sin and restore man to God’s grace but it also leaves an eternal mark upon the soul that is necessary. Our Lady was baptised and received this character on her soul, though she was already in a state of grace. Baptism is what makes us children of Our Lord and this character is what defines it.
Jesus was never in a state of Original Sin, the Church doesn’t teach that. Jesus couldn’t have ever, for a moment, been under the bondage of sin. He was perfect.And yes Mary was baptised, as baptism is necessary for salvation. Baptism doesn’t only wash away Original Sin and restore man to God’s grace but it also leaves an eternal mark upon the soul that is necessary. Our Lady was baptised and received this character on her soul, though she was already in a state of grace. Baptism is what makes us children of Our Lord and this character is what defines it.
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Mount_Carmel
Guest
Jesus’ Pa was/is the Holy Spirit, His Ma was/is Mary/The Immaculate Conception - so just who or what could Jesus have inherited ‘original sin’ from?Could God have made himself, Jesus, clear of original sin? I understand that Mary was born without original sin but why wouldn’t God do it for himself? And did Mary have to be baptized?
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thistle
Guest
You are wrong. Jesus was free from both original sin and personal sin.Could God have made himself, Jesus, clear of original sin? I understand that Mary was born without original sin but why wouldn’t God do it for himself? And did Mary have to be baptized?
I am curious to know why you think Jesus was not free from original sin.
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Joan_M
Guest
Mary was baptized? Where did you get that from? It certainly is not in the Bible. Mary was, by an act of God, preserved free from Original Sin from the moment of her conception, so she did not need baptism. God is not bound by His Sacraments. There was no need whatever for Mary to be baptized. Kindly provide a source for your statement, above.The answers are simple.
And yes Mary was baptised, as baptism is necessary for salvation. Baptism doesn’t only wash away Original Sin and restore man to God’s grace but it also leaves an eternal mark upon the soul that is necessary. Our Lady was baptised and received this character on her soul, though she was already in a state of grace. Baptism is what makes us children of Our Lord and this character is what defines it.
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Neofight
Guest
Perhaps the post you have responded to is in err, but perhaps not. Your post may be equally as problematic, especially, “it certainly is not in the Bible”. If being literally stated in the bible is to be a requirement for theology, the Catholic Church would subscribed to sola scriptura, and clearly it does not.
The apostles, clearly were sinners born with the effects of original sin, and the bible does not categorily state they were all baptized. I would claim they were, but since the fact cannot be traced to scripture, would you claim they were not?
Also, obviously Jesus was born with no stain, yet scripture tells us he was baptized. If, our Lord, free of sin submitted to the will of the Father and was baptized, does it not make sense that Mary also was baptized? Especially given the track record of the blessed Mother of God to say yes to the will of the Father.
Peace and all good!
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1ke
Guest
Where did you get this idea? It is not correct.
No, she did not “need” baptism for the remission of sin since she had no original sin or personal sin.And did Mary have to be baptized?
That does not mean she wasn’t baptized. We simply do not know, but since she was a follower of Jesus and he instructed baptism, she likely did receive the sacrament of baptism.
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JerryZ
Guest
Is your question:Could God have made himself, Jesus, clear of original sin? I understand that Mary was born without original sin but why wouldn’t God do it for himself? And did Mary have to be baptized?
“Why was Mary preserved from original sin? Was it so that Jesus could also be born free of Original Sin?”
God did not need Mary to be free from Original sin, so that Jesus would also be.
She was preserved from Original sin because GOD would Dwell in her.
Have you read in the Bible that “Nothing imperfect can enter Heaven”
Because GOD would anhilate anything impure that came to HIS presence.
Mary was preserved from Original sin so that by being sinless she could accept GOD in her body without being harmed.
We see an example of this in St Paul speaking of people dying because they had taken the Body of Christ unworthily.
The Eucharist being GOD and being taken by a person full of sin was harmfull to them.
We also see the parallel between the Ark of the Covenant in the OT which contained 3 things. The Word of God (Tablets of the LAW given to Moses by God). The Bread that sustained the Israelites in the desert (Manna). The Staff of Moses (Symbol of Authority).
The New Ark of the Covenant (Mary) Contained The Word of GOD (Jesus), The Bread of life (Jesus), The Rod of Iron that will rule all (Jesus).
If the old Ark was as the OT say “PURE” made of precious woods and metals. What that says for the new ARK?
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Zachary
Guest
So well reasoned! Well done!
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Zachary
Guest
Jesus did not suffer from original sin. In fact, being perfect, He could not experience (of His own accord) being shut off from God. So, to experience the fullness of our fallen nature (so that we could share in His Divinity):
“My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?”
I heard a homily once that explained this was necessary since it was the only way Jesus could feel what we feel when we feel abandonned by the Father.
(note: we may feel it abandonned, but we’ve done the abandonning.)
“My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?”
I heard a homily once that explained this was necessary since it was the only way Jesus could feel what we feel when we feel abandonned by the Father.
(note: we may feel it abandonned, but we’ve done the abandonning.)
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cguerber
Guest
Question: Is not The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit (Trinity) equal? You state above that Mary had to be sinless in order to have God dwell in her body. But true believers, children of God, have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. And we are sinners. Sorry, but I have a problem with your theory.
As it is well known, there are numerous verses that speak of Jesus being sinless. If we were to assume anyone in the Bible was sinless, it would be Jesus, the Son of God. But we are not left to assume, it is stated many times. There is not one other person mentioned in the Bible as being sinless.
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TimothyH
Guest
I want to just add some info. I’m not trying to make a point but just adding some interesting info in case you or anyone else is interested…
Mary and Jesus were likely Essene Jews. Essenes were known for many things including their habit of daily immersion known as the Mikveh bath which was for the purposes of ritual cleansing.
The the Bible says that John the Baptist was baptizing, what he was probably doing was administering the ritual purification Mikveh. Jesus elevated the ritual Mikveh to sacramental status when he underwent the ritual. Jesus had no need for ritual cleansing of any kind.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikveh
Mary probably underwent the Mikveh many times in her life, probably daily.
-Tim-
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Jon_S_1
Guest
The whole reason the church teaches that Mary was born without original sin was so she could carry Christ who had no sin.Could God have made himself, Jesus, clear of original sin? I understand that Mary was born without original sin but why wouldn’t God do it for himself? And did Mary have to be baptized?
God cannot commingle with sin. It’s the opposite of his divine nature.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
I hate to break it to you but not everything is written in the Bible. The early Christians practiced a living faith. They spoke to each other. They preached countless sermons. They wrote a basic history/teachings of Christ. The final verse of John even tells us Hesus did and said many more things than could be written. These things were still important and passed in in practice.
The other part of the Bible is letters often correcting and clarifying things Christians were doing wrong according to the oral preaching they received.
There is a case to be made that the most widely accepted teachings and practices were not really written in the Bible because they were so commonplace. I mean you don’t need a textbook in how to eat, maybe how to prepare certain meals but the basic premise if eating you have down.
This is why so little is written on HOW to Baptize for example, or the Eucharist
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Ad_Orientem
Guest
KAL EL,
I think you’re wondering, “Why is there a dogma of the Immaculate Conception for Mary, but not one for Jesus?”
But there is one for Jesus, it’s just not as well known because it’s not as contested. The Council of Florence (Sess. 11, para. 10) defined:
Christ, the mediator between God and humanity, who was conceived without sin …
I think you’re wondering, “Why is there a dogma of the Immaculate Conception for Mary, but not one for Jesus?”
But there is one for Jesus, it’s just not as well known because it’s not as contested. The Council of Florence (Sess. 11, para. 10) defined:
Christ, the mediator between God and humanity, who was conceived without sin …
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Jon_Paul
Guest
Baptism isn’t just about washing away original sin and restoring man to God’s grace. Baptism also leaves a character upon the soul. And I would argue that she did need baptism because baptism is necessary for salvation. I’ve read that there is a tradition that Our Lady was baptized directly by the hands of Our Lord. But remember that baptism isn’t just about washing away Original Sin. It is also about the indelible character of baptism.
God is not bound by His Sacraments sounds like a hollow battle-cry. Yes God is not absolutely necessarily bound by the Sacraments due Who He Is. But I would argue that God is at the very least consistent. He says baptism is necessary for salvation, He Himself is baptized… why wouldn’t Mary have been baptized? She wasn’t a thousand miles away from Him and never heard of Him. She was with Him, she know Him. She would have followed Him. Consider the 4th Joyful Mystery! The Presentation in the Temple. This was completely unnecessary for Our Lady as she had no need to be purified after child-birth. She still submitted in humility to the law of God.
I would argue that there was every necessity for Mary to be baptized. She came under the New Law. The New Law says that for salvation one must be baptized. She had to and did receive the baptismal character.
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Church_Militant
Guest
To answer your thread title; He didn’t.
Where exactly did you get the idea that Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ was born in original sin? There is no such scripture or teaching in the Catholic Church.
Mary was not divine and therefore needed the special application of grace so that she was immaculately conceived and a fitting ark of the new covenant. Our Blessed Lord, who is God in the flesh had no such need.
Here again, you ask something that neither the Church nor scripture teaches. There is no record that Mary was ever baptized.And did Mary have to be baptized?
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KAL_EL
Guest
That is why I was confused, it didn’t make sense to me. Thank you for clearing it up for me. Someone had said something to me that distorted the truth in my mind. Thanks!
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JoeT777
Guest
Could God have made himself, Jesus, clear of original sin? I understand that Mary was born without original sin but why wouldn’t God do it for himself? And did Mary have to be baptized?
I contend that the Blessed Mary was Immaculate as an imperative to the identity of Christ; this is an imperative teaching for any Christian faith that confesses the Holy Trinity. Without an Immaculate Ever Virgin Mary all of the Trinity falls. As you know, the Holy Trinity is God the Father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit; three Persons of the same essence of God. God has the nature of God the father and the Holy Spirit has the nature of the Spirit of God, distinct Persons of the same substance. Christ is One Person with two natures, God and Man. Inseparable is God (uncreated) from the man born of woman – wholly God and wholly man, God/man. The prophecies of the Old Testament require the Messiah to be God (uncreated) and the prophecies require him to be born from woman (creature). There is only one way Jesus Christ can be wholly Divine, and perfectly a whole man is to be born of woman who is the new Eve – sinless, i.e. and that is through His birth of the Immaculate Mary. Thus to deny the Blessed Virgin Mary as Immaculate is to deny Christ as either God or man and fails to acknowledge Him as Theandros.Could God have made himself, Jesus, clear of original sin? I understand that Mary was born without original sin but why wouldn’t God do it for himself? And did Mary have to be baptized?
The Divine substance (the ‘stuff’ that underlies the act of existence) of Jesus Christ, Divine Wisdom, existed in the eternal past, exists today and will exist for the eternal future. Jesus Christ became Theandros in a specific point in time at a particular point on earth as prophesied.
The ‘Logos’ is more than the audible Word of God; more properly it is defined as the Divine Wisdom. “The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us” is the result of the incarnation which occurs in time. The Second Person of the Trinity, Christ was always Divine Wisdom. Jesus is the light of Divine Wisdom Incarnate who “dwelt among us. . . full of grace and truth.” This is the Personified Word of God in the Person whose Divine hypostasis existed in the eternal past, exists in the Person of Christ in antiquity, exists in Christ today and exists in Jesus Christ for eternity. He joined Himself with flesh, blood, and soul of man in perfect harmony as the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Both the natures of God and man are united in a harmonious unanimity that animated His Body to a seamless concomitant act, yet not conjoined.
The Divine Christ was foretold to be born of a woman. “Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.” (Jeremias 1:5). The prophet sent to all nations was formed in the belly of Mary, but before that God knew His own Wisdom. Wisdom, love of truth, is the Divine motivator, pushing us toward Christ who came through Mary;
"For [Divine] wisdom is more active than all active things: and reacheth everywhere by reason of her purity. For she is a vapour of the power of God, and a certain pure emanation of the glory of the almighty God: and therefore no defiled thing cometh into her. (Wisdom 7:24-27)
Sophia is the begotten, not made formed at the foundation of all existence. “The LORD begot me, the beginning. . ." (Proverbs 8:22-24) “Now with you is Wisdom, who knows your works and was present when you made the world; Who understands what is pleasing in your eyes and what is conformable with your commands.” (Proverbs 9:9). This incarnate Word of God came to create His Kingdom on earth for the Salvation of men, “All wisdom is from the Lord and remains with him forever” (Sirach 1:1). An eternal God, “Before all ages, from the beginning, he created me [Divine Wisdom], and through all ages I shall not cease to be.” (Sirach 24:9)
Our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For “the Word was made flesh.” [Cf. John 1:14] Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.’" (Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians (long version), 7).
If Jesus was wholly man as well as wholly God therefore no actual sin could be in Chris. Thus being Divine could not have been born deprived of original Justice (original sin is the deprivation of original justice).
Like Adam, Jesus Christ came to us with original justice. Simply put, original justice can be thought of as being friends with God. St. Augustine’s journey searching for the source of evil in men and the need for Salvation. St. Thomas explains that in men, because of Adam’s sin, God withheld original justice which “united the will to God, produced an overflowing of perfection into other powers, namely, that knowledge of truth enlightened the intellect, and that the irascible and concupiscible appetites received direction from reason.” [Cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo]
I think it is quite clear (it can’t be any other way) that Christ was born without original sin, without actual sin, and born of a woman whose flesh he bore was without original sin.
JoeT
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