Why did Jesus have to die?

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AlanFromWichita

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Today I got an idea.

I told a friend that I can call him a friend because he doesn’t need me, nor do I need him. Such is our faith that the other is in good hands.

Then it dawned on me (images and allegory related to dawn invoked):

Could it be the reason Christ had to die, was to remove his worldly presence from his friends – so that they could sort out whether they loved Him because he was a friend who walked with them, or whether they loved Him because he was a resource that he could get stuff for them and do them favors.

After all, He did teach us to do things for people who cannot do things back; when you are physically dead then only in faith can someone pay you back for good deeds.

This broke the “transactional model” of spirituality that existed prior to then. As long as He could he their wounds in plain sight, they would not look toward healing within each other.

This all, btw, triggered by a discussion on another forum about whether we can see CHrist in each other. Christ is not gone; he is right there … and there … and there …

Of course, we wouldn’t want to think I’m saying, “look there he is” because I’m not looking with my eyes or blind people would miss it. This type of presence you will have to recognize on your own.

Alan
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Today I got an idea.

I told a friend that I can call him a friend because he doesn’t need me, nor do I need him. Such is our faith that the other is in good hands.

Then it dawned on me (images and allegory related to dawn invoked):

Could it be the reason Christ had to die, was to remove his worldly presence from his friends – so that they could sort out whether they loved Him because he was a friend who walked with them, or whether they loved Him because he was a resource that he could get stuff for them and do them favors.

After all, He did teach us to do things for people who cannot do things back; when you are physically dead then only in faith can someone pay you back for good deeds.

This broke the “transactional model” of spirituality that existed prior to then. As long as He could he their wounds in plain sight, they would not look toward healing within each other.

This all, btw, triggered by a discussion on another forum about whether we can see CHrist in each other. Christ is not gone; he is right there … and there … and there …

Of course, we wouldn’t want to think I’m saying, “look there he is” because I’m not looking with my eyes or blind people would miss it. This type of presence you will have to recognize on your own.

Alan
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See the CCC:

Christ’s death is the unique and definitive sacrifice

613 Christ’s death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”,439 and the sacrifice of the New Covenant, which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the “blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”.440

614 This sacrifice of Christ is unique; it completes and surpasses all other sacrifices.441 First, it is a gift from God the Father himself, for the Father handed his Son over to sinners in order to reconcile us with himself. At the same time it is the offering of the Son of God made man, who in freedom and love offered his life to his Father through the Holy Spirit in reparation for our disobedience.
 
Thank you for the information. 🙂

I never really understood sacrifices before, but now I’m thinking it sounds a little like fasting. :confused:

When you fast, you learn that you do not need this item every day in order to live. We did not need the human being Jesus in the flesh anymore, because the seeds were planted and He was leaving the spirit. Of course his death was seen unilaterally as a huge loss to the human mind, but the Good News is that He did not leave us orphans. Even after His body had been sacrificed, He continues to nourish us with spiritual food. So the fast is like, you have to lose your life in order to gain it.

Well, just a fool’s ruminations…

Alan
 
He died because of you.

(And me as well).

🙂

– Mark L. Chance.
 
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mlchance:
He died because of you.

(And me as well).

🙂

– Mark L. Chance.
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Wow!

When this jumped up on my screen, I had immediate tears of joy.

Then I read it again and it was tears of sorrow.

Then they canceled each other out. I feel very peaceful.

Guess I confused “because of” with “for.” Maybe they aren’t so different!

Alan
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Guess I confused “because of” with “for.” Maybe they aren’t so different!
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In this context, not that different at all.

It is troubling, heartening, and heart-breaking to consider that even if I had been the only person ever created by God, the Son of God still would have come as man in order to die at my own hands for my own sins in order to redeem me from Hell.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Although I’m going to have to ponder this a little more, my initial reaction is that you’re really on to something here Alan.

The “meritocracy” model, or what you refer to as the transactional model, is what much of religion has been based on. “God, I’ll do this for you if you’ll do that for me.” Jesus however, in his perfect way, expressed God’s perfect message: “What you do for the LEAST of my brothers you do for me.” In other words, it is in doing for those who can’t repay you (think the parable of inviting those who cannot repay for your party) that you are loving God through His children. In dying after showing them the servant model in the washing of the feet, I think you may be quite right that he was then “getting out of the way” to allow them to grow in that spirit.

I think there is a second side to the “why” question though. Just as His life was the perfect example of how to live, His death was to be the perfect example of how to die. Two aspects come to mind here. First is the “forgive them Father for they know not what to do” showing us how even the most heinous of human acts, the killing of God, is forgivable without malice for God. The second might be just as important. It is the willingness to suffer our death–and that includes each of our little daily “deaths” as we surrender ourselves–in a spirit of complete trust in God. It is epitomized in the famous “into your hands I commend my spirit.”

To me that should be our motto daily, not just at the time of our death. Into your hands I commend my spirit as I suffer this injustice, or this pain, or this temptation, or whatever brokeness we are experiencing today.

In the end, maybe the two are connected. Father into your hands I commend not only my spirit but my brother’s spirit. I know he is safe in Your hands and that we don’t “need” each other, only to know that we each need You.

Thanks Alan for some great insight. I always appreciate the opportunity to ponder the deeper mysteries. 🙂

I also have to fully agree with Mark’s comment:
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mlchance:
It is troubling, heartening, and heart-breaking to consider that even if I had been the only person ever created by God, the Son of God still would have come as man in order to die at my own hands for my own sins in order to redeem me from Hell.
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The only thing I might add is that He is also redeeming me from that Hell that I create for myself through my own lack of trust in Him.

Peace,
 
He didn’t “have to”. He voluntarily took it upon himself because of the great love he had for us.–nicolo
 
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nico1089:
He didn’t “have to”. He voluntarily took it upon himself because of the great love he had for us.–nicolo
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That’s a great point.

He could have avoided it, but that would have been to deny His purpose! Truly He gave His life, denying His very self in the process, for the cause of redeeming us. No hypocracy there, as that is what He has told us – we must lose our life in order to save it.

Alan
 
Wow.

I think I just got some feelings about this “sacrifice” thing.

Now it makes sense to me. Thank you all for helping pool these resources.

It’s like, we can’t undo the past, but we can show each other and God our regrets and desire to repent, by tithing our firsfruits to Him and each other.

By sacrificing – as in willing to lose this most pure product in the hope it will show Good Will – I am demonstrating, whether actual or not, an intent to make myself less for another – whether that other be God or another human or whatever I suppose.

This also explains I think why Christ had to have been born of a virgin. We had to create a man who was completely devoid of sin, to sentence the law of sin and death – the state of the art since Adam – by demonstrating that by human standards and application of the law as written, we would actually be able to convert purity to sin. Having condemned to death purity in the name of the law so to speak, we condemned the law itself.

Considering sacrifices, no wonder we are so devoted to Mary. The Lord gave up His purest daughter AND His only begotton son in one fell swoop, subjecting both of them to the greatest evil possible which also means Christ would optimally not have any siblings – in addition to Mary being pure.

This is beautiful. I’m glad I woke up today. Praise God, and Thanks Be for his Holy Catholic Church, without which I would never know the peace I’m experiencing right now. It’s gone beyond feelings unto the point I can nearly say, finally, that I’m beginning to find my faith. Christ has put quite a high standard for the quality of the work one is able to do by believing in Him, so I think I will make it my life work to do whatever I can to remain as passionate as possible, but tempered as by temperature shock. Wow. Talk about spiritual tempered. How about a Man who knows of going from heaven to hell and back? It’s enough to make me want to take up my cross and follow Him. Just one thing: would anybody seriously object if I put a little padding on my yoke? I’m afraid I’m not up to it being as light as I’ve heard it is for others. :crying:

Yes, I think by today’s psychological standards, creation itself is manic-depressive. Maybe that’s why things are finally making sense to me! 😛

Alan
 
Christ said “No greater love has a man for his friends, that he lay down his life for them.” As always, he kept his word. Who are his friends? Those who keep his words–" Love God with your whole heart and love your neighbor as yourself. Clothe the naked, feed the hungry, forgive your brother seventy times seven times". Who is your brother? Think—“Our Father, who art in heaven”, we are all brothers and sisters. Does this exclude anyone? Think–“Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do”
Hard row to plow ? You bet. Impossible for man alone, but with God . all things are possible.–nicolo
 
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nico1089:
Christ said “No greater love has a man for his friends, that he lay down his life for them.” As always, he kept his word. Who are his friends? Those who keep his words–" Love God with your whole heart and love your neighbor as yourself. Clothe the naked, feed the hungry, forgive your brother seventy times seven times". Who is your brother? Think—“Our Father, who art in heaven”, we are all brothers and sisters. Does this exclude anyone? Think–“Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do”
Hard row to plow ? You bet. Impossible for man alone, but with God . all things are possible.–nicolo
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Hard in a way, but of course His yoke is light and His burden is easy. If you can make sense out of that maybe you’re better than I am at this! 🙂

Alan
 
Saint Francis once said,“nor did demons crucify him-it is YOU who crucify him, when you delight in your vices and sins.” even Martin Luther said we carry the nails in our pockets.
So we “killed” Jesus. 😦 but Jesus also laid His life for us. We sent Him on the cross but His love kept Him there. 🙂
“The Father loves me for this:
That I lay down my life
to take it up again.
no one takes it from me,
i lay it down freely.
I have the power to lay it down;
and I have the power to take it up again.
This command i received from my Father.”
Jn. 10:17-18
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Why’s a man as wise as He weeping alone in Gethsemane?
Did He know some would never see…the heaven in His eyes?

Why is a man as strong as this being betrayed by a good friend’s kiss?
Could it be that that man missed… the heaven in His eyes?

THIS is why a man as Holy as He, had to die alone on Calvary…
it was the only way that WE could ever see the heaven in His eyes.
-rich mullins

I was listening to rich, and this is part of the lyrics
to one of his songs. Tears my heart out…:crying:

peace,
SusanandCo
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Could it be the reason Christ had to die, was to remove his worldly presence from his friends
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Here’s a different slant on things. He “left us” in His wordly presence so that we might live by faith . . . for faith is more pure and spiritual than sight (think Thomas).

We see this model applied to the spiritual life all the time. Sometimes people mistake an extraordinary sense of Christ’s presence (visions, revelations, locutions etc), or even the more common experience of His presence (consolations during prayer), as a sign of holiness in an individual.

While no doubt these individuals have been touched by God in a very special way, any sort of attachment to these things can become a type of “spiritual junk food” for us. Yes, even desiring sweet feelings of God can potentially be harmful to our spiritual growth.

True holiness as taught by the Saints (especially St. John of the Cross) lies in renouncing these seemingly good and desirable things so that we might walk in the darkness of pure faith. For embraced this way, He is more present to us than when He can be perceived by our senses.

This is one aspect of the Gospel message as applied to the spiritual life as taught by our Saints. And like most things, it is counterintuitive to our human way of thinking 🙂

Just some ramblings . . . good to see you again Alan. 🙂

Dave.
 
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