Why did Jesus say no one but the Father knew the Hour? (Mt 24:36; Mk 13:32)

[CutlerB]

St Matthew 24:36
But as for that day and that hour you speak of, they are known to none, not even to the angels in heaven; only the Father knows them.

St Mark 13:32
But as for that day and that hour you speak of, they are known to nobody, not even to the angels in heaven, not even to the Son; only the Father knows them.

I have the following questions:

1. 
   *]I know the Catechism states in CCC 474 that Jesus was not sent to reveal the hour (cf. Acts 1:7), but doesn’t what He does in these verses then constitute lying?
   
   *]Jesus’ words sen to exclude the Holy Spirit from this knowledge. How do we explain that?
   
   Can you help me understand?

 

[Back2Church]

I have the following questions:

1. 
   *]I know the Catechism states in CCC 474 that Jesus was not sent to reveal the hour (cf. Acts 1:7), but doesn’t what He does in these verses then constitute lying?
   
   *]Jesus’ words sen to exclude the Holy Spirit from this knowledge. How do we explain that?
   
   Can you help me understand?

1. 
   I’m lost on how or why you think Jesus lying.

 

[JerryZ]

In the beginning there was GOD He begets the son and also the Holy Spirit ALL goes back to GOD.

Jesus accepts that the Father has the right to determine when the hour will come and that only then it shall be disclosed.
Would Jesus go against the will of the Father if He wishes for the hour to remain hidden?

Why would He be lying, Jesus stated what the Father wishes us to know.

Peace

 

[CutlerB]

I’m lost on how or why you think Jesus lying.

In the beginning there was GOD He begets the son and also the Holy Spirit ALL goes back to GOD.

Jesus accepts that the Father has the right to determine when the hour will come and that only then it shall be disclosed.
Would Jesus go against the will of the Father if He wishes for the hour to remain hidden?

Why would He be lying, Jesus stated what the Father wishes us to know.

Peace

I don’t believe He was lying. However, it seems that if Jesus knew the hour (which He must have) but says instead “No one but the Father knows the hour”, that’s a lie, isn’t it?

 

[Neofight]

In the beginning there was GOD He begets the son and also the Holy Spirit ALL goes back to GOD.

Just a theological point of order:

All three persons in the Holy Trinity have existed simultaneously in the Godhead.

Although begotten, Jesus was, as we profess in the Creed, consubstantial with the Father.

Peace and all good!

 

[JerryZ]

Ahhh you are ASSUMING that Jesus KNOWS the hour.

How is the interaction between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is an even deeper mistery than the Trinity itself.
We humans fail miserably at trying to wrap our brains on THAT mistery let alone to have a fuller understanding of the totality of GOD.
I will just take Jesus word for it He did not know and that’s what he stated.

For if I start pondering did HE sin? That is slippery slope my friend.

Peace

 

[CutlerB]

Ahhh you are ASSUMING that Jesus KNOWS the hour.

How is the interaction between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is an even deeper mistery than the Trinity itself.
We humans fail miserably at trying to wrap our brains on THAT mistery let alone to have a fuller understanding of the totality of GOD.
I will just take Jesus word for it He did not know and that’s what he stated.

For if I start pondering did HE sin? That is slippery slope my friend.

Peace

Well, of course I assume Jesus knows the hour, because He is God. As God, He must know the hour, since God is all-knowing.

Again, I do not believe He lied. I’m just looking for an explanation.

Any answers to the second question?

 

[thistle]

I have the following questions:

1. 
   *]I know the Catechism states in CCC 474 that Jesus was not sent to reveal the hour (cf. Acts 1:7), but doesn’t what He does in these verses then constitute lying?
   
   *]Jesus’ words sen to exclude the Holy Spirit from this knowledge. How do we explain that?
   
   Can you help me understand?

1. 
   D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:
   
   Matt 24:36
   
   Ver. 36. No man knoweth … but the Father alone. The words in St. Mark (xiii. 32.) are still harder: neither the angels, nor the Son, but the Father. The Arians objected this place, to shew that Christ being ignorant of the day of judgment, could not be truly God. By the same words, no one knoweth, but the Father alone, (as they expound them) the Holy Ghost must be excluded from being the true God. In answer to this difficulty, when it is said, but the Father alone, it is certain that the eternal Son and the Holy Ghost could never be ignorant of the day of judgment: because, as they are one and the same God, so they must have one and the same nature, the same substance, wisdom, knowledge, and all absolute perfections. 2. It is also certain that Jesus Christ knew the day of judgment, and all things to come, by a knowledge which he could not but have, because of the union by which his human nature was united to the divine person and nature. See Colossians ii. 3. And so to attribute any ignorance to Christ, was the error of those heretics called Agnoitai. 3. But though Christ, as a man, knew the day of judgment, yet this knowledge was not due to him as he was man, or because he was man, but he only knew the day of judgment, because he was God as well as man. 4. It is the common answer of the fathers, that Christ here speaks to his disciples, only as he was the ambassador of his Father; and so he is only to know what he is to make known to men. He is said not to know, says St. Augustine[5], what he will not make others know, or what he will not reveal to them. (Witham) — By this Jesus Christ wished to suppress the curiosity of his disciples. In the same manner after his resurrection, he answered the same question: 'Tis not for you to know the times and the moments, which the Father has placed in his own power. This last clause is added, that the apostles might not be discouraged and think their divine Master esteemed them unworthy of knowing these things. Some Greek manuscripts add nor even the Son, as in Mark xiii. 32. The Son is ignorant of it, not according to his divinity, nor even according to his humanity hypostatically united to his divinity, but according to his humanity, considered as separate from his divinity. (Bible de Vence)
   
   Mark 13:32
   
   Ver. 32. But how can the Son be ignorant of that last day? Were this the case, we must thence conclude that his nature was imperfect: since he was under the necessity of a second coming, and yet was ignorant when that time should be. But we must remember, that the meaning of this sentence is not, that Christ was really ignorant of this circumstance, but only that it was not then a convenient time to disclose the secret. (St. Augustine) — Not as if Christ were ignorant himself, as certain Eutychian heretics, called Agnoitæ, held; but because he knew it not as our teacher, to teach it others, as being not expedient. (St. Ambrose, de fide, lib. v. chap. viii.) — The Son of God is ignorant of this day, not according to his divinity, which sees and knows all things; but according to his humanity, which does not know it of itself, of its own light, but by revelation which is made to it by the divinity, which is intimately united to it. In naturâ quidem divinitatis novit, says St. Gregory, non ex naturâ humanitatis. See St. Matthew xxiv. 36.

 

[Back2Church]

Well, of course I assume Jesus knows the hour, because He is God. As God, He must know the hour, since God is all-knowing.

Again, I do not believe He lied. I’m just looking for an explanation.

Any answers to the second question?

But He is God the Son, not God the Father. God is both one God and three persons. While Jesus was a man walking the earth, it’s not unreasonable to think his knowledge was limited in some ways, compared to God the Father.

When Jesus was baptized and God announced this was his son in whom He was pleased, do you think Jesus was saying that himself through some act of metaphysical ventriloquism? It’s confusing to us, sure, but we can’t forget that even though they are one God, the three persons of the trinity really are three distinct persons.

 

[CutlerB]

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Matt 24:36

Ver. 36. No man knoweth … but the Father alone. The words in St. Mark (xiii. 32.) are still harder: neither the angels, nor the Son, but the Father. The Arians objected this place, to shew that Christ being ignorant of the day of judgment, could not be truly God. By the same words, no one knoweth, but the Father alone, (as they expound them) the Holy Ghost must be excluded from being the true God. In answer to this difficulty, when it is said, but the Father alone, it is certain that the eternal Son and the Holy Ghost could never be ignorant of the day of judgment: because, as they are one and the same God, so they must have one and the same nature, the same substance, wisdom, knowledge, and all absolute perfections. 2. It is also certain that Jesus Christ knew the day of judgment, and all things to come, by a knowledge which he could not but have, because of the union by which his human nature was united to the divine person and nature. See Colossians ii. 3. And so to attribute any ignorance to Christ, was the error of those heretics called Agnoitai. 3. But though Christ, as a man, knew the day of judgment, yet this knowledge was not due to him as he was man, or because he was man, but he only knew the day of judgment, because he was God as well as man. 4. It is the common answer of the fathers, that Christ here speaks to his disciples, only as he was the ambassador of his Father; and so he is only to know what he is to make known to men. He is said not to know, says St. Augustine[5], what he will not make others know, or what he will not reveal to them. (Witham) — By this Jesus Christ wished to suppress the curiosity of his disciples. In the same manner after his resurrection, he answered the same question: 'Tis not for you to know the times and the moments, which the Father has placed in his own power. This last clause is added, that the apostles might not be discouraged and think their divine Master esteemed them unworthy of knowing these things. Some Greek manuscripts add nor even the Son, as in Mark xiii. 32. The Son is ignorant of it, not according to his divinity, nor even according to his humanity hypostatically united to his divinity, but according to his humanity, considered as separate from his divinity. (Bible de Vence)

Mark 13:32

Ver. 32. But how can the Son be ignorant of that last day? Were this the case, we must thence conclude that his nature was imperfect: since he was under the necessity of a second coming, and yet was ignorant when that time should be. But we must remember, that the meaning of this sentence is not, that Christ was really ignorant of this circumstance, but only that it was not then a convenient time to disclose the secret. (St. Augustine) — Not as if Christ were ignorant himself, as certain Eutychian heretics, called Agnoitæ, held; but because he knew it not as our teacher, to teach it others, as being not expedient. (St. Ambrose, de fide, lib. v. chap. viii.) — The Son of God is ignorant of this day, not according to his divinity, which sees and knows all things; but according to his humanity, which does not know it of itself, of its own light, but by revelation which is made to it by the divinity, which is intimately united to it. In naturâ quidem divinitatis novit, says St. Gregory, non ex naturâ humanitatis. See St. Matthew xxiv. 36.

That somewhat helps.

I searched the Fathers’ writings over at NewAdvent.org and came across this by Saint John Crysostom:

Acts I. 6

When they therefore had come together, they asked of Him, saying, Lord, will You at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

When the disciples intend to ask anything, they approach Him together, that by dint of numbers they may abash Him into compliance. They well knew that in what He had said previously, Of that day knows no man Matthew 24:36, He had merely declined telling them: therefore they again drew near, and put the question. They would not have put it had they been truly satisfied with that answer. For having heard that they were about to receive the Holy Ghost, they, as being now worthy of instruction, desired to learn.

 

[CutlerB]

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Matt 24:36

Ver. 36. No man knoweth … but the Father alone. The words in St. Mark (xiii. 32.) are still harder: neither the angels, nor the Son, but the Father. The Arians objected this place, to shew that Christ being ignorant of the day of judgment, could not be truly God. By the same words, no one knoweth, but the Father alone, (as they expound them) the Holy Ghost must be excluded from being the true God. In answer to this difficulty, when it is said, but the Father alone, it is certain that the eternal Son and the Holy Ghost could never be ignorant of the day of judgment: because, as they are one and the same God, so they must have one and the same nature, the same substance, wisdom, knowledge, and all absolute perfections. 2. It is also certain that Jesus Christ knew the day of judgment, and all things to come, by a knowledge which he could not but have, because of the union by which his human nature was united to the divine person and nature. See Colossians ii. 3. And so to attribute any ignorance to Christ, was the error of those heretics called Agnoitai. 3. But though Christ, as a man, knew the day of judgment, yet this knowledge was not due to him as he was man, or because he was man, but he only knew the day of judgment, because he was God as well as man. 4. It is the common answer of the fathers, that Christ here speaks to his disciples, only as he was the ambassador of his Father; and so he is only to know what he is to make known to men. He is said not to know, says St. Augustine[5], what he will not make others know, or what he will not reveal to them. (Witham) — By this Jesus Christ wished to suppress the curiosity of his disciples. In the same manner after his resurrection, he answered the same question: 'Tis not for you to know the times and the moments, which the Father has placed in his own power. This last clause is added, that the apostles might not be discouraged and think their divine Master esteemed them unworthy of knowing these things. Some Greek manuscripts add nor even the Son, as in Mark xiii. 32. The Son is ignorant of it, not according to his divinity, nor even according to his humanity hypostatically united to his divinity, but according to his humanity, considered as separate from his divinity. (Bible de Vence)

Mark 13:32

Ver. 32. But how can the Son be ignorant of that last day? Were this the case, we must thence conclude that his nature was imperfect: since he was under the necessity of a second coming, and yet was ignorant when that time should be. But we must remember, that the meaning of this sentence is not, that Christ was really ignorant of this circumstance, but only that it was not then a convenient time to disclose the secret. (St. Augustine) — Not as if Christ were ignorant himself, as certain Eutychian heretics, called Agnoitæ, held; but because he knew it not as our teacher, to teach it others, as being not expedient. (St. Ambrose, de fide, lib. v. chap. viii.) — The Son of God is ignorant of this day, not according to his divinity, which sees and knows all things; but according to his humanity, which does not know it of itself, of its own light, but by revelation which is made to it by the divinity, which is intimately united to it. In naturâ quidem divinitatis novit, says St. Gregory, non ex naturâ humanitatis. See St. Matthew xxiv. 36.

That somewhat helps.

I searched the Fathers’ writings over at NewAdvent.org and came across this by Saint John Crysostom:

Acts I. 6

When they therefore had come together, they asked of Him, saying, Lord, will You at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

When the disciples intend to ask anything, they approach Him together, that by dint of numbers they may abash Him into compliance. They well knew that in what He had said previously, Of that day knows no man Matthew 24:36, He had merely declined telling them: therefore they again drew near, and put the question. They would not have put it had they been truly satisfied with that answer. For having heard that they were about to receive the Holy Ghost, they, as being now worthy of instruction, desired to learn.

But He is God the Son, not God the Father. God is both one God and three persons. While Jesus was a man walking the earth, it’s not unreasonable to think his knowledge was limited in some ways, compared to God the Father.

When Jesus was baptized and God announced this was his son in whom He was pleased, do you think Jesus was saying that himself through some act of metaphysical ventriloquism? It’s confusing to us, sure, but we can’t forget that even though they are one God, the three persons of the trinity really are three distinct persons.

The thing is: Jesus didn’t cease to be God when He walked the earth. I never said He was the Father.

 

[Starrsmother]

St Mark 13:32
But as for that day and that hour you speak of, they are known to nobody, not even to the angels in heaven, not even to the Son; only the Father knows them.

I wonder if maybe Jesus meant that as the Son, and while in human form, He left behind certain knowledge that He would have had and now has in heaven? If you consider other things, such as Jesus being tempted in the desert after 40 days of fasting, or for instance, during His Agony in the Garden, it seems a little odd to me that if He were acting as God in those contexts, that God could be tempted by earthly food or power. It also seems to me that God wouldn’t be begging Himself to “allow this cup to pass” when He knew what He had come to earth to do and also knew in advance that the cup would not pass Him by. Yet, it states that He was weak and hungry after such a lengthy fast and also that He was so upset,in the garden, so afraid and so distraught about the Passion He would experience the very next day, that he fell to the ground and actually sweat blood. I don’t think anyone really has an answer to this and probably won’t until our earthly lives end. However, if God consists of 3 persons that are one,single God, I don’t see how Jesus wouldn’t have knowledge of His own mind. Do you understand my point? To me,the only way it makes any sense is if, when Jesus came to earth as a human being, He completely took on a human nature with all its weaknesses including hunger, thirst, fear, pain, love and so on-- and thus, as a true man at that time, He wouldn’t be privy to such knowledge, anymore than any other human would or could be. Am I making any sense?

 

[TimothyH]

Jesus was not concious of every detail of his mission prior to his baptism. It is not a matter of Jesus being omnipitent, but of The Father revealing himself to Jesus and Jesus accepting the will of the Father.

not my will, but thine, be done. (Luke 22:42)

God is all knowing but Jesus is also human. We must never forget that Jesus is completely human in all things except sin.

No human can know all that God knows. In taking on flesh, the Second Person of the Trinity fully embraces the human condition with the exception of sin. Jesus gets tired, cries, feels pain. At time Jesus is able to step beyond the boundaries of the human condition - he walks on water, raises the dead and feeds the multitudes with only a few loaves. The Second Person of the Trinity however, willingly accepts every limitation of being human down to being a fetus in the womb of a peasant girl. No human can know everything that God knows, and Jesus fully accepts this.

Jesus has conciousness of his identity and his messianic/salvific mission but recieves full revelation about the specifics of his mission, that he is to suffer, die and rise from the dead, from The Father at his baptism.

*And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased.” (Mark 1:10-11)

And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:16-17)*

This event is something Christ himself experienced: “as he was coming out of the water, he saw…” Jesus gave great importance to his baptism and he argues with the authorites that his baptism is what gives him his authority.

Jesus answered them, “I also will ask you a question; and if you tell me the answer, then I also will tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John, whence was it? From heaven or from men?” And they argued with one another, “If we say, From heaven,' he will say to us, Why then did you not believe him?’ But if we say, `From men,’ we are afraid of the multitude; for all hold that John was a prophet.” So they answered Jesus, “We do not know.” And he said to them, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things. (Matthew 21:24-27)

Jesus baptism is most important to him because it revealed to him his relationship to God as a Son, and this is the source of his authority.

All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. (Matthew 11:21)

This is a very Jewish way of writing. “Have been” speaks of a singular, past event - his baptism.

Although he is concious of his mission as a suffering servant in Isaiah 42, every detail of Jesus mission was not revealed to him by the Father prior to his baptism. It is at his baptism that he becomes completely aware of his mission and begins his ministry, begins to work miracles. But these he does because of his relationship with the Father. Jesus does nothing apart from the Father on whom he is completely dependent. He does nothing on his own.

Never forget that Jesus is human, and even in his divinity, he is completely dependant on the Father for everything he does. This is how he can not know, because he accepts that the Father has chosen not to reveal it to him.

-Tim-

 

[Layp3rs0n]

Yes, I belive it was the opinion of the ECF that in His humanity, Jesus did not know. Not that he *couldn’t * know mind you. Jesus’ humanity and divinity were perfectly substantially united in one Person. However, since the Son took to Himself a human nature, that nature had to learn through experimentation like we do. He had to ask for the name of one of the Apostles when He met him for the first time for example. He could have chosen to know that Apostle’s name but chose not to without inquiring. So, we know one thing from Scripture that cannot be ascertained is the date of the Day of Judgment. If Jesus’ humanity didn’t find the date we sure won’t. But here we have a beautiful mystery. Jesus so humbled Himself by becoming man that He didn’t even allow Himself information He had right to without the Father’s permission. As the Holy Spirit, speaks only what He hears, so does the Son.

 

[TimothyH]

Yes, I belive it was the opinion of the ECF that in His humanity, Jesus did not know. Not that he *couldn’t * know mind you. Jesus’ humanity and divinity were perfectly substantially united in one Person. However, since the Son took to Himself a human nature, that nature had to learn through experimentation like we do. He had to ask for the name of one of the Apostles when He met him for the first time for example. He could have chosen to know that Apostle’s name but chose not to without inquiring. So, we know one thing from Scripture that cannot be ascertained is the date of the Day of Judgment. If Jesus’ humanity didn’t find the date we sure won’t. But here we have a beautiful mystery. Jesus so humbled Himself by becoming man that He didn’t even allow Himself information He had right to without the Father’s permission. As the Holy Spirit, speaks only what He hears, so does the Son.

This is very beautiful. You have stated in a few sentances what I could not in many paragraphs.

-Tim-

 

[Layp3rs0n]

This is very beautiful. You have stated in a few sentances what I could not in many paragraphs.

-Tim-

Thank you

Let me add one more thing to think on. Of all the Mysteries Our Lord has given us perhaps this is in a hidden way the most sublime. Even the Paschal Mystery was made known to the Apostles. He flat out told them, “When we go to Jerusalem I am going to be killed and I will be back in a few days after.” This is the Mystery the Church celebrates. The central point of Christendom. All our love and practices center on the Christ Event. But Jesus told us this would happen. The Day of Judgment is called The Day. All eternity will be That Day. We will be in perpetual surprise and awe when we are judged. That “Aha!” moment will be our Beatific Vision when God shows us His perfect Justice and Mercy and Himself. It will be so sacred, this Eternal Moment that even though the Paschal Mystery was made known to us in advance. THIS we are not allowed to know. The curtain to this Holy of Holies has not yet been thrown back. When it is it will be the Son of Man who opens it for us all.

 

[CutlerB]

Yes, I belive it was the opinion of the ECF that in His humanity, Jesus did not know. Not that he *couldn’t * know mind you. Jesus’ humanity and divinity were perfectly substantially united in one Person. However, since the Son took to Himself a human nature, that nature had to learn through experimentation like we do. He had to ask for the name of one of the Apostles when He met him for the first time for example. He could have chosen to know that Apostle’s name but chose not to without inquiring. So, we know one thing from Scripture that cannot be ascertained is the date of the Day of Judgment. If Jesus’ humanity didn’t find the date we sure won’t. But here we have a beautiful mystery. Jesus so humbled Himself by becoming man that He didn’t even allow Himself information He had right to without the Father’s permission. As the Holy Spirit, speaks only what He hears, so does the Son.

This is very beautiful. You have stated in a few sentances what I could not in many paragraphs.

-Tim-

Thank you

Let me add one more thing to think on. Of all the Mysteries Our Lord has given us perhaps this is in a hidden way the most sublime. Even the Paschal Mystery was made known to the Apostles. He flat out told them, “When we go to Jerusalem I am going to be killed and I will be back in a few days after.” This is the Mystery the Church celebrates. The central point of Christendom. All our love and practices center on the Christ Event. But Jesus told us this would happen. The Day of Judgment is called The Day. All eternity will be That Day. We will be in perpetual surprise and awe when we are judged. That “Aha!” moment will be our Beatific Vision when God shows us His perfect Justice and Mercy and Himself. It will be so sacred, this Eternal Moment that even though the Paschal Mystery was made known to us in advance. THIS we are not allowed to know. The curtain to this Holy of Holies has not yet been thrown back. When it is it will be the Son of Man who opens it for us all.

Aaaah, I am getting the hang of it!

 

[R_C]

Can you help me understand?

CutlerB, this is the second post that I read of yours where you adopt a language towards the Almighty that is by all standards irreverent.

The adjective imperfection cannot stand next to the term Divine Person, and the verb “to lie” cannot stand next to the name of Our Lord, who said: “I am the Truth”. It would be proper to use more reverent ways to state your argument, even when the above was done in good faith and with a good heart seeking understanding.

The Lord, as God the Son, the Divine Person, was as omniscent and omnipresent and uncreated as God, for there is but one God.

When the Word took flesh and made His dwelling among us, he clearly did not appear to be omnipresent, or did He?

His Divinity was fully constrained in the womb of Our Lady, then in a baby’s body, then in a grown man’s body. The Scripture tells us about Christ that He grew in wisdom, and the great theologians and doctors of our Church have explained that just as Christ was not omnipresent, so His knowledge was limited and constrained by His humanity.

One thing is considered to be certain: Christ knew or learned all that He needed to know to fulfill His divine mission. He knew about the Passion, He knew about Judas, He knew about Nathanael praying under the fig tree and about the Samaritan woman’s husbands. Now, did He know about you asking this question today on CAF and about me sitting on my desk and typing this answer? God sure does, but Christ in the flesh probably didn’t need to know this. Get my point?

When the apostles started asking Christ about the end times, Christ told them “everything the Father had told Him” (John 15:15), but when they inquired as of the exact time, He revealed that this was not for Him to know and reveal.

Now, did Christ have right of ownership over this knowledge? Certainly! As He said:

I have much more to tell you but you cannot bear it now. But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak …] He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall give it to you. All things whatsoever the Father has, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and give it to you.

Christ clarifies that the Holy Spirit, too, shall not speak of Himself but that which He shall hear, He shall reveal. And we are told in 1 Cor 2:11: “no one can know God’s thoughts except God’s own Spirit”. And in clarifying this ongoning revelation through the Spirit of Truth, Christ says: “He will take what is mine …] for all things the Father has are mine”, clarifying that yes, the Holy Spirit, just like Him, receives knowledge from the Father, but yet, in this, there is no limitation, as “all the Father has belongs to the Son” and "the Spirit of Truth searches all things, even the deep things of God (1 Cor 2:10), and “will guide us into all truth” (John 16:13).

 

[CutlerB]

CutlerB, this is the second post that I read of yours where you adopt a language towards the Almighty that is by all standards irreverent.

I have expressed myself badly. That was certainly not my intention, and I apologise for having offended anyone. What exactly was it that you found irreverent?

The adjective imperfection cannot stand next to the term Divine Person, and the verb “to lie” cannot stand next to the name of Our Lord, who said: “I am the Truth”. It would be proper to use more reverent ways to state your argument, even when the above was done in good faith and with a good heart seeking understanding.

Again, I apologise, but I couldn’t think of another way to put it.

The Lord, as God the Son, the Divine Person, was as omniscent and omnipresent and uncreated as God, for there is but one God.

When the Word took flesh and made His dwelling among us, he clearly did not appear to be omnipresent, or did He?

His Divinity was fully constrained in the womb of Our Lady, then in a baby’s body, then in a grown man’s body. The Scripture tells us about Christ that He grew in wisdom, and the great theologians and doctors of our Church have explained that just as Christ was not omnipresent, so His knowledge was limited and constrained by His humanity.

One thing is considered to be certain: Christ knew or learned all that He needed to know to fulfill His divine mission. He knew about the Passion, He knew about Judas, He knew about Nathanael praying under the fig tree and about the Samaritan woman’s husbands. Now, did He know about you asking this question today on CAF and about me sitting on my desk and typing this answer? God sure does, but Christ in the flesh probably didn’t need to know this. Get my point?

I do.

When the apostles started asking Christ about the end times, Christ told them “everything the Father had told Him” (John 15:15), but when they inquired as of the exact time, He revealed that this was not for Him to know and reveal.

Now, did Christ have right of ownership over this knowledge? Certainly! As He said:

I have much more to tell you but you cannot bear it now. But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak …] He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall give it to you. All things whatsoever the Father has, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and give it to you.

I sort of get the point, but it’s still hard to see how Christ, Who is both God and man, could not know something in view of the things I’ve heard said that “God cannot cease to be God”.

 

[JMJ91]

According to this Jewish Christian website regarding ancient Jewish wedding traditions, the groom was to prepare a house for his bride before the marriage ceremony. It was a surprise for the bride when the bridegroom was to come and get her. It was a surprise to the bridegroom also…the bridegroom did not go out to get his bride until his father instructed him to do so.

If this tradition is true, then it makes perfect sense that Jesus did not know when he was to return to get his bride, the church. His Father has not revealed that time to him as of yet.

messianicfellowship.50webs.com/wedding.html