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solarwind23
Guest
How do you explain these quotations?
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T
thistle
Guest
How do you explain these quotations?
S
solarwind23
Guest
Well, it seems to me that Jesus was mistaken about the second coming, suggesting that it would happen within the lifetime of his disciples. Also mistaken about the effectiveness of prayer and the powers believers would have.
Or maybe the people who wrote the gospels quoted him wrong.
J
jennifer101
Guest
Mark 11
12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany he was hungry.
13 Seeing from a distance a fig tree in leaf, he went over to see if he could find anything on it. When he reached it he found nothing but leaves; it was not the time for figs.
14 And he said to it in reply, “May no one ever eat of your fruit again!” And his disciples heard it.
…
20 Early in the morning, as they were walking along, they saw the fig tree withered to its roots.
21 Peter remembered and said to him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree that you cursed has withered.”
22 Jesus said to them in reply, "Have faith in God.
23 Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him.
24 Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours.
I thought this was funny. I can imagine Jesus knowing full well the diciples can hear him and are watching him tell the tree it will never bear fruit again. They’re like little kids watching the adult… And Jesus knows this. It was like He was staging an example of how powerful faith in God is when you simply speak and believe with no doubt. Later, when the fig tree was withered and dead, He was able to complete the lesson. I thought Jesus was very humorous when I read this in the bible. That’s one example. I believe God is the creator of all things, including humor… It’s scattered in the bible. Like when His mother asks him to turn the water into wine… It’s so funny to think of God saying, “woman it’s not my time!”… but then to do what she asks anyway, because she’s His mother and He can give her a little lip, but ultimately… Even God has to obey His mom. That cracks me up. His first miracle was His mother saying… “do it” and He says, “Not yet”, and she ignores Him and tells the servants to do whatever He tells them to do. How can people not see the humor?
12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany he was hungry.
13 Seeing from a distance a fig tree in leaf, he went over to see if he could find anything on it. When he reached it he found nothing but leaves; it was not the time for figs.
14 And he said to it in reply, “May no one ever eat of your fruit again!” And his disciples heard it.
…
20 Early in the morning, as they were walking along, they saw the fig tree withered to its roots.
21 Peter remembered and said to him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree that you cursed has withered.”
22 Jesus said to them in reply, "Have faith in God.
23 Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him.
24 Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours.
I thought this was funny. I can imagine Jesus knowing full well the diciples can hear him and are watching him tell the tree it will never bear fruit again. They’re like little kids watching the adult… And Jesus knows this. It was like He was staging an example of how powerful faith in God is when you simply speak and believe with no doubt. Later, when the fig tree was withered and dead, He was able to complete the lesson. I thought Jesus was very humorous when I read this in the bible. That’s one example. I believe God is the creator of all things, including humor… It’s scattered in the bible. Like when His mother asks him to turn the water into wine… It’s so funny to think of God saying, “woman it’s not my time!”… but then to do what she asks anyway, because she’s His mother and He can give her a little lip, but ultimately… Even God has to obey His mom. That cracks me up. His first miracle was His mother saying… “do it” and He says, “Not yet”, and she ignores Him and tells the servants to do whatever He tells them to do. How can people not see the humor?
T
the-3rd-parent
Guest
Interesting…I never realized this came after Christ said “whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Since He says “again”, I think this is dealing with the Church’s power. I’d say the you are the Apostles and their successors. So if the magistrium agrees on an issue and encourages the Church to pray, the prayer will be answered. I don’t doubt that this occurs.
I think leaving out key passages is deceiving. Jesus’ immediate response is "See that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, saying “I am the Messiah,’ and they will deceive many. You will hear of wars and reports of wars; see that you are not alarmed, for these things must happen, but it will not yet be the end.”
He then says that Nation will rise against Nation. I think that the experience of these things occurs for all Christians. Right now we are in the midst of the wars, but we’ve been in them for the last 2000 years and we should not be alarmed by them.
This is referring to the end of the world and the second coming. We as Catholics do believe in this. We also believe in the general resurrection and in there being a judgment at death and then a final judgment.
Granted, my local priest believes that it is referring to the end of the world for each individual, that when we die it will look as if the sun is darkened and the moon gives no light. That he is describing the experience the Christian’s life and their death. That each Christian will experience suffering and persecution and that terrible things will happen and then when we die it’ll be something that appears rather frightful but that then we will see Christ appear to us.
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the-3rd-parent
Guest
I don’t think my local priest is theologically correct, but I am willing to believe that there are two meanings to the text, that our death may be like that, but that also there will be a final end to the earth.
Either this generation means all of God’s people from Christ’s time till the end of time, or it means that even that generation and all generations till the very end will experience it, or both.
Either this generation means all of God’s people from Christ’s time till the end of time, or it means that even that generation and all generations till the very end will experience it, or both.
Well we have exorcists that drive out demons and this did occur with the Church Fathers. These gifts still occur but they are uncommon.
Christ also said that the Kingdom of God is at hand. The Kingdom of God is Christ’s Church which exists in Purgatory, Heaven and Hell. Those standing there saw the building of the Church on earth so they did not taste death before it came into being.
I think that the fig tree represents how God puts challenges in our lives and punishes us. When we are presented with what seems impossible, we should not give up our hope. We should pray and have faith that God will see us through and that it is temporary. This is especially relevant to me as I’m still looking for employment. I don’t think its to be meant literally.
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solarwind23
Guest
But look at more of the context, it seems that Jesus is just listing a lot of things: (There are a lot of numbers because NAB has footontes and those numbers come up here as well)
Matthew 18
15
11 "If your brother 12 sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
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13 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’
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If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. 14 If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
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15 Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19
16 Again, (amen,) I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father.
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17 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
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18 Then Peter approaching asked him, “Lord, if my brother sins against me, how often must I forgive him? As many as seven times?”
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19 Jesus answered, "I say to you, not seven times but seventy-seven times.
23
That is why the kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who decided to settle accounts with his servants.
I didn’t post the whole thing because I would have had to post the whole chapter. I guess for me the relevant part is that he says ’
"34 Amen, I say to you, this generation 20 will not pass away until **all ** these things have taken place. "
The passage that is right before it is this one:
29
16 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 **
And then the sign of the Son of Man 17 will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ** 31 **
And he will send out his angels 18 with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other**.
32
19 "Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near.
33 **
In the same way, when you see all these things, know that he is near, at the gates.
34
Amen, I say to you, this generation 20 will not pass away until all these things have taken place. ** 35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
What else could he have been referring to?
Hmm, but is this consistent with this:
And then the sign of the Son of Man 17 will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 **
And he will send out his angels 18 with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other**
That doesn’t seem to describe the individual death
H
hurst
Guest
The more relevant phrase is “this generation”, which can have different connotations. It can mean either the generation of those then living or a particular kind of generation (e.g., a wicked and perverse generation):
Mark 8:38 For he that shall be ashamed of me, and of my words, in this adulterous and sinful generation: the Son of man also will be ashamed of him, when he shall come in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
In the case of Matt 24:34, I take it to mean both at the same time, in that those then living were representative of the kind of wicked generation that would still be around until all these things would be accomplished. Only through all these predicted things would the generation of the wicked be removed and Christ’s reign triumph on earth, as it is in heaven. “Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven”.
However, there is also another aspect to the Kingdom of Heaven, from what I understand. The Church is the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, and Christ has left it in the hands of servants until He returns (Mk 13:34). He went to prepare a place for us (Jn 14:2-3), He will come back to claim His Kingdom, and those who did want Him to rule over them will be slain before Him (Lk 19:11-27).
That the Kingdom would also begin to come in the lifetime of those then living is clear from several passages. One of them is right after He mentions His return in glory in Mark 38:
Mark 8:39 And he said to them: Amen I say to you, that there are some of them that stand here, who shall not taste death, till they see the kingdom of God coming in power.
This Kingdom would come but have to be planted, grow, and be harvested. It would have to leaven the dough. It would have to be like money invested for interest.
Luke 19:11 As they were hearing these things, he added and spoke a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately be manifested. 12 He said therefore: A certain nobleman went into a far country, to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And calling his ten servants, he gave them ten pounds, and said to them: Trade till I come. 14 But his citizens hated him: and they sent an embassage after him, saying: We will not have this man to reign over us. 15 And it came to pass, that he returned, having received the kingdom: and he commanded his servants to be called, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading …
So the Kingdom of Heaven is here, since it has been planted, but the reaping at the end is yet to be done. Every one of us who has received the Faith is expected to make a return to he Lord. We must invest it and produce fruit, both by prayers and good works.
We participate in the Kingdom now by faith. Christ tells us not to be spectators for its arrival, but to look within us.
Luke 17:20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come? he answered them, and said The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say: Behold here, or behold there. For lo, the kingdom of God is within you.
Now, the Kingdom consists of charity. We see it in Christ, and by obeying His commandments, it comes to dwell in us.
John 14:23 Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him.
Now, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, and the Church teaches that the Holy Spirit is also the Soul of the Mystical Body of Christ.
Let us, then, not wait to see what will happen, but begin to participate now by faith in doing good works for our neighbor and prepare ourselves to be called to account.
hurst
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hurst
Guest
I agree. Yet, it is still true that at our death, it is the end of our world, so to speak. So regardless of the world’s end, we should be getting ready for our own end.
hurst
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