This is such an awesome passage, and so confirms that the book belongs in the canon of Scripture.
Yes, he could have betrayed him to gain something he thought was more valuable!
This may be true, but it would be a merciful priest, who if refusing to hear a confession, would do what he can to get the person some counseling or some other means of dealing with the person’s fears or self-condemnation.
A description of the “state” is in order, but if the person does wrong without knowing he does wrong, then his “state” is different than the person who does wrong knowing and appreciating the negative consequences of his actions. The latter is the one who, when his mind is back in order (as Judas) is going to feel guilty and is in the condition of going to confession. The former, feeling no remorse, is not sorry, and is in no condition to go to confession. If a person does not know the negative consequences of a sin, then they most certainly do not know what they are doing.
Yes, it is very possible that when he turned Jesus over to the authorities, he did not know that Jesus would suffer. He probably did not know the consequences of his actions. If he had known better, he would not have done what he did.
Yes, we are “required” to have contrition, but if that contrition is not real, then the exercise of the sacrament is not real. Remember, the “separation” occurs within the human himself. God always forgives, and the Church is to reflect such forgiveness. We are “Church”, and we are called to forgive. It is true that a person can willfully separate himself from the Church, though. They do so when they condemn other members of the Church, make accusations, etc., point at them and say “they do not belong” or “they are not following Christ”. Ironically, it is in their pointing that they exclude themselves from community, not the other way around.
What is the “requirement” for the sacrament, guanophore? If a person does not confess, then God does not forgive? If a Catholic has done wrong, but does not think he has done anything wrong, he may choose to go to receive communion and think nothing of it. It is only when it is pointed out that what he is doing is wrong that he consider going to confession first. And if the person does not fully realize the consequences of his acts, then what is the source of his contrition? What is “Knowledge of God’s law” if a person knows that the Church says something is wrong without really seeing its wrongness?Apparently only if someone “feels” guilty. It is only important to assuage and assure the person that all is good? There is no real requirement for the Sacrament, since there is really no such thing as mortal sin?
If that was the case, which was possible, then he had no intent whatsoever for Jesus to be imprisoned or mistreated. He did not know the consequences of his actions, as I stated on the last post.
Hmmm. And how do you distinguish the “flesh” from our appetites?
This is a very confusing question, guanophore. “Responsibility” means an ability to respond for his actions. If he cannot respond as to why he did what he did, then his ability is lacking, he is irresponsible. Judas may have had the self-awareness to say that if he had known that Jesus would be tortured, he would not have turned him in. Indeed, he could have responded that he was not rejecting, he was setting in motion what he saw as a rise to power for Jesus. His “will” was that Jesus come to power, according to the possibility you suggested.
Yes, these specific words seem to indicate something contrary to the love and care that God/Jesus have for people, for we do not ordinarily put such labels on people we love. Indeed, the labels themselves encourage people to condemn rather than forgive, for the labels are ordinarily used as a condemnation. The Gospel itself has some contradictions within, and I think that they are there because condemnation is part of the workings of our God-given, natural conscience. Ultimately, though, the call is to forgive, and forgiveness blots out all condemnation. IMO, Jesus’ use of those words shows his human nature.
I would enjoy going through these with you, but maybe a new thread?
What reasons does a person have in their mind for not listening? “I am not listening because…” ?
I think that Judas was blind to Jesus’ well being. I think Judas convinced himself that, if he forced His hand, He would act to secure Himself and His disciples. I think it never occurred to Judas that Jesus would allow HImself to be led like a lamb to slaugher. He may have convinced himself that what he was doing WAS for Jesus’ well being!
Most priests will hear a confession or address the scrupulosity in the confessional. They are not trained in psychotherapy so it is a difficult spot. Also we have had scrupulosity since the beginning, and we have only had psychotherapy for about 120 years. What did they do before that?
I have had the picture that you do not believe human beings willingly and knowingly reject God.
We are responsible to form ourselves in our faith through study, prayer, and receiving direction. If a person does not examine his conscience, it is not likely he will grow in faith. If a person knows the Church says something is wrong, he is morally obligated to learn how and why. This is part of receiving the aposotlic teaching. It will only perpetuate blindness to refuse to look at the facts.
We can certainly observe ourselves, and should, but we can also examine ourselves in the light of apostolic teaching. We can also help one another to see ourselves. One way to resolve blind spots is to listen to feedback.
There was no way to make amends. The deed was done. You bring up an interesting point. Judas may have wanted to depend upon his own ability to make things right with God, and saw that he could not. His pride would not let him throw himself on to the mercy of God.
Judas was chosen, but not necessarily granted to come to Jesus for salvation by the Father.
It seems very unlikely Judas would have followed Jesus for three years if he didn’t believe nor would he have said “I have betrayed innocent blood” and killed himself. There seems no doubt Jesus knew what would happen but it doesn’t follow that Judas was compelled to be a traitor. Knowledge doesn’t imply causation. If it did no one would have free will! Often we can predict what people are going to do but it doesn’t mean they have no choice.
I’m sure Judas remembered what Jesus had said and it must have increased his mental agony. He probably thought he was doomed to go to hell and that is why he gave way to utter despair. Yet Jesus knew how much mental torture Judas was going to undergo. He pitied him for having given way to temptation by Satan and forgave him because He knew Judas didn’t foresee exactly what was going to happen. Jesus loved Judas in spite of what he was going to do because he knew he was possessed. Judas also loved his Master because he couldn’t bear to go on living when he finally realised what was going to happen. He killed himself because he couldn’t forgive himself for what he had done. Like so many Christians today he was convinced his crime was unforgivable but God is infinitely merciful. He knows Judas was overwhelmed with remorse for what he had done and proved it by hanging himself. There was nothing else he could have done…
Yes, all of these can be true. In summary, I observe in that scenario that Judas did not know what he was doing. He was not even intending to reject Jesus, let alone the Father.
And the above shows Judas as an example. It is not a “belief”, it is an observation.
Catholic definition of the word “culpable”:
Yes, people are “morally obligated” but people still do not do so. Though blindness may be a factor, this is mostly a matter of ignorance/lack of awareness. Does God condemn, blame, or does He forgive? The question to investigate this is “why do people not follow up on why something the Church says is wrong is truly wrong?” Do you want to investigate that?
Yes, Judas was blind, as I explained above. Note: I removed the word “pride” from my observations because the term is very vague; it often simply means “bad”, a projected negative.
He may not have intended for Jesus to be tortured and killed, but the plain fact is, he rejected Jesus and the Father long before this deed. He had three years to sit at the feet of Jesus and allow his heart to be tenderized, but he would not. He stole from the money bag, and plotted manipulaton of his Teacher. Full knowledge does not mean he could see all the possible outcomes. Full knowledge means that one knows that certain acts are considered wrong.
Are you suggesting that your “observations” are not filtered by your belief system? :bigyikes:
Are you suggesting Judas did not know it was wrong to steal? To conspire with Jesus’ enemies? To betray his Teacher for money? His lack of knowledge of the outcome does not remove his culpability for his actions.
No, OS, you misapplied the statement of Jesus to “the crowd”. His statement was made in regard to those who were crucifying him.
“We” speculated no such thing. Judas knew that his actions were wrong. He convinced himself that the outcome would make the means worthwhile. A person does not say “I have betrayed innocent blood” if one thinks otherwise.
No, I did not say that. He was equally culpable for his attitude and choices before and after.
You suggest that we look at behavior, then you talk about feelings. Perhaps he did feel guilty. Not all who have regrets also feel guilty. Regret may come from not like the outcome, but it may not involve any affect of guilt.
After three years of watching Jesus heal and forgive the unworthy, the rest of the Apostles accepted that there was nothing they could do to “earn” or “qualify” for His love and mercy. They accepted that it was unmerited grace. Judas rejected God’s unmerited grace.
You think he killed himself by accident?!
You have as much right to speculate about his feelings as anyone else on the thread. And your speculations must be informed by your confirmational bias.
Other people who were blind came to Jesus and told Him they wanted to see. Jesus told the Pharisees they would remain blind because they claimed they could see. Thomas has the right response. He falls to the feet of Jesus and prays “Oh Lord, help my unbelief!” Judas could have thrown himself on God’s mercy, could have asked God to help his blindness. We can all do this. God gives every human soul sufficient grace to be saved.
If he chose to go by his feelings, perhaps. But the truth of God is not rooted in feelings. Either one accepts the Truth of what God has revealed, or one rejects the revelation. Each soul is responsible for thier choice.
Nor is it our place to do so. Only God can read and judge the heart.
Exactly. People willingly and knowingly fail to respond to responsibilities. God draws all to Himself. Those who do not respond choose to reject HIm.
We are self condemned, when we refuse God’s offer of mercy.
Arrogance, or hubris, is first noted in the actions of Lucifer, who, though he was created a powerful being full of light, chose to leave the presence of God. In the garden of Eden, we see hubris at work again, when Adam and Eve take it upon themselves to disbobey God’s commandment.
Do you think it’s unlikely? Suppose he fell on some jagged rocks…
Petty theft doesn’t amount to deliberate rejection of Jesus - and certainly not of God the Father. What leads you to believe Judas was guilty of “plotted manipulaton”?
I think it is very likely. Even without the jagged rocks.
Theft, no matter how petty, is still a sin. Under what circumstances could Judas take money out fo the joint purse that could be justified? Perhaps he was afraid he would go without something to eat? Sin separates us from God, and it always starts with petty sins, then the conscience becomes seared, so we justify greater sins.
Nobody would have claimed his body, so it would have stayed in the tree. After several days it would have started to bloat, skin tightening around the bloated decaying body. Eventually the hastily prepared rope or cloth would have given way. And the impact of the body with the ground burst it open.
St John states clearly that “Satan entered him…”
Jesus didn’t say Judas was lost forever nor that he would go to hell. He was lost because at that moment he was possessed by Satan.
Judas cannot be in this category because he did repent. “I have betrayed innocent blood” are not the words of a man who isn’t sorry for what he has done. Nor is a man who kills himself for that reason a hardened, unrepentant sinner. Judas was heart-broken when he heard Jesus had been condemned. He may have expected his Master to save Himself because it was a Jewish belief that the Messiah would lead his people to victory over the Romans and establish their kingdom on earth. There is no doubt whatsoever Judas was devastated by the knowledge that Jesus was going to be crucified like a criminal. If he had foreseen the full consequences of his treachery he would have thought twice before going ahead with his plan but there is no evidence that he hesitated for one moment. When Jesus told him to do what he had to do quickly he obeyed instantly. He may have thought that was what his Master wanted him to do but he didn’t have time to consider the matter. What he did know was that he was fulfilling the prophecy and must have thought he had no choice. Jesus never said things that weren’t true. So Judas was trapped by his fatal mistake - and no one is damned unless they reject God deliberately…