Why did Mary die, if she was free from original sin?

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Monica4316

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Hi,

I came across this quote from an early Church council at Carthage…

101 Can. 1. All the bishops established in the sacred synod of the Carthaginian Church have decided that whoever says that Adam, the first man, was made mortal, so that, whether he sinned or whether he did not sin, he would die in body, that is he would go out of the body not because of the merit of sin but by reason of the necessity of nature, * let him be anathema.

102 Can. 2. Likewise it has been decided that whoever says that infants fresh from their mothers’ wombs ought not to be baptized, or says that they are indeed baptized unto the remission of sins, but that they draw nothing of the original sin from Adam, which is expiated in the bath of regeneration, whence it follows that in regard to them the form of baptism “unto the remission of sins” is understood as not true, but as false, let him be anathema. Since what the Apostle says: “Through one man sin entered into the world (and through sin death), and so passed into all men, in whom all have sinned” [cf. Rom. 5:12], must not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church spread everywhere has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who in themselves thus far have not been able to commit any sin, are therefore truly baptized unto the remission of sins, so that that which they have contracted from generation may be cleansed in them by regeneration. *

So on one hand, it really supports the doctrine of original sin… but there’s something else that’s confusing.

If it’s having sin that causes us to die, and Mary was without original sin, why did she die? I know that we don’t know if she died or not, and some theologians say she didn’t… but in the Eastern church, they generally believe this.

My question is… IF Mary died, how could this happen, if she was free from all sin?

btw this canon is also problematic for the Eastern Orthodox, not only because it supports original sin, but also because if original sin doesn’t exist and if Mary never committed any personal sin (as they believe), she couldn’t have died either. Yet they believe she did.

It also doesn’t explain why Christ died, (since He is sinless), and why we still die after we are cleansed of original sin in Baptism.

Can someone please help me understand what this canon is talking about? thanks! 🙂
 
Monica4316 said:
If it’s having sin that causes us to die, and Mary was without original sin, why did she die? I know that we don’t know if she died or not, and some theologians say she didn’t… but in the Eastern church, they generally believe this.
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The (Roman) Catholic Church does not define whether or not Mary died. The Church uses language such as “at the end of her earthly life” without saying whether or not she actually died and was then assumed, or was assumed at the point of death. This detail is not part of the Deposit of Faith, so the Church cannot say for sure.
Monica4316 said:
My question is… IF Mary died, how could this happen, if she was free from all sin?
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Well (as you say), Jesus died, and he was free from all sin. He willingly chose to die, and the Father allowed it.

Some theologians believe that Mary would have *wanted *to die, so that she would unite herself in every way possible with her Son (and I personally concur with this opinion). She did not NEED to die, but she WANTED to die, and God granted her this choice.
 
Monica4316 said:
Hi,

I came across this quote from an early Church council at Carthage…

101 Can. 1. All the bishops established in the sacred synod of the Carthaginian Church have decided that whoever says that Adam, the first man, was made mortal, so that, whether he sinned or whether he did not sin, he would die in body, that is he would go out of the body not because of the merit of sin but by reason of the necessity of nature, * let him be anathema.

102 Can. 2. Likewise it has been decided that whoever says that infants fresh from their mothers’ wombs ought not to be baptized, or says that they are indeed baptized unto the remission of sins, but that they draw nothing of the original sin from Adam, which is expiated in the bath of regeneration, whence it follows that in regard to them the form of baptism “unto the remission of sins” is understood as not true, but as false, let him be anathema. Since what the Apostle says: “Through one man sin entered into the world (and through sin death), and so passed into all men, in whom all have sinned” [cf. Rom. 5:12], must not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church spread everywhere has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who in themselves thus far have not been able to commit any sin, are therefore truly baptized unto the remission of sins, so that that which they have contracted from generation may be cleansed in them by regeneration. *

So on one hand, it really supports the doctrine of original sin… but there’s something else that’s confusing.

If it’s having sin that causes us to die, and Mary was without original sin, why did she die? I know that we don’t know if she died or not, and some theologians say she didn’t… but in the Eastern church, they generally believe this.

My question is… IF Mary died, how could this happen, if she was free from all sin?

btw this canon is also problematic for the Eastern Orthodox, not only because it supports original sin, but also because if original sin doesn’t exist and if Mary never committed any personal sin (as they believe), she couldn’t have died either. Yet they believe she did.

It also doesn’t explain why Christ died, (since He is sinless), and why we still die after we are cleansed of original sin in Baptism.

Can someone please help me understand what this canon is talking about? thanks! 🙂
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Extract from MARY AND THE HUMAN DRAMA OF DEATH
by Pope John Paul II

web link for full paper: ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm53.htm
  1. It is true that in Revelation death is presented as a punishment for sin. However, the fact that the Church proclaims Mary free from original sin by a unique divine privilege does not lead to the conclusion that she also received physical immortality. The Mother is not superior to the Son who underwent death, giving it a new meaning and changing it into a means of salvation. Involved in Christ’s redemptive work and associated in his saving sacrifice, Mary was able to share in his suffering and death for the sake of humanity’s Redemption. What Severus of Antioch says about Christ also applies to her: “Without a preliminary death, how could the Resurrection have taken place?” (Antijulianistica, Beirut 1931, 194f.). To share in Christ’s Resurrection, Mary had first to share in his death.
 
The question you are implying is if anyone does not commit any sin whatsoever does that person eventually die? The Eastern and Western Church teaches that Mary has commited no sins at all. Therefore by the Western doctrine on Original Sin will this exempt her from dying? The problem with this is if Mary lives on forever without dying how then can we apply the Resurrection towards her. The Church has no formal teaching on this matter though you can refer to mystics who have been given some revelation on this matter. Probably when the time for the Holy Mother to be united with her Son ( this is probably the main reason for Mary to have died or have fallen asleep so that she can be united again with her Son ) Mary did not go through the same death as we would but she would go through a very peaceful " falling asleep ". When the time came for her Son to be united with her the Lord resurrected His Mother so that there was a second Pascha. The Holy Mother received her resurrected body in advance so now there are 2 in heaven with resurrected bodies, Jesus and Mary. If you understand that then remember that Jesus died at the age of 33. His Mother now appears at the age of 33. When it is our time to be resurrected we will all appear of the same age of 33 but now with a glorified body and this body will never age. Mary " died " not because of any sins she committed ( for she committed none ) but she identified what her Son went through so that now she can be united with Him with that Glorified body that Her Son now possesses and will share in the fruits of the Resurrected life.
 
Jesus,our Lords peace be whit You.
Virgin Mary wos taken to heaven where She prays for us. So I believe,and I see no reason to change my way of thinking. You see,Jesus did die,and only for our sins,our Blessed Virgin did not die as we see it,there is no line in the Bible that would say that She died,She wos taken to heaven,She did not wear a sin,so She did not need to die first,as Jesus,who had to die,for our sins,even He had no sin himself on Him,but Christ also came alive again. He once and for all died for our sins and came alive again as proof that so will we if we live as He want us to.
I advice You all read the Bible,over and over again,and be strong in faith and prayers,I beg you all to do so,if not for your life,but for Jesus. I feel pain when I sin cause I whit that sin are among those who hurted Jesus.
 
Monica4316 said:
Hi,

I came across this quote from an early Church council at Carthage…

101 Can. 1. All the bishops established in the sacred synod of the Carthaginian Church have decided that whoever says that Adam, the first man, was made mortal, so that, whether he sinned or whether he did not sin, he would die in body, that is he would go out of the body not because of the merit of sin but by reason of the necessity of nature, * let him be anathema.

102 Can. 2. Likewise it has been decided that whoever says that infants fresh from their mothers’ wombs ought not to be baptized, or says that they are indeed baptized unto the remission of sins, but that they draw nothing of the original sin from Adam, which is expiated in the bath of regeneration, whence it follows that in regard to them the form of baptism “unto the remission of sins” is understood as not true, but as false, let him be anathema. Since what the Apostle says: “Through one man sin entered into the world (and through sin death), and so passed into all men, in whom all have sinned” [cf. Rom. 5:12], must not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church spread everywhere has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who in themselves thus far have not been able to commit any sin, are therefore truly baptized unto the remission of sins, so that that which they have contracted from generation may be cleansed in them by regeneration. *

So on one hand, it really supports the doctrine of original sin… but there’s something else that’s confusing.

If it’s having sin that causes us to die, and Mary was without original sin, why did she die? I know that we don’t know if she died or not, and some theologians say she didn’t… but in the Eastern church, they generally believe this.

My question is… IF Mary died, how could this happen, if she was free from all sin?

btw this canon is also problematic for the Eastern Orthodox, not only because it supports original sin, but also because if original sin doesn’t exist and if Mary never committed any personal sin (as they believe), she couldn’t have died either. Yet they believe she did.

It also doesn’t explain why Christ died, (since He is sinless), and why we still die after we are cleansed of original sin in Baptism.

Can someone please help me understand what this canon is talking about? thanks! 🙂
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What is the date of this council?
 
Totterman said:
… So I believe,and I see no reason to change my way of thinking. You see,Jesus did die,and only for our sins,our Blessed Virgin did not die as we see it,there is no line in the Bible that would say that She died,She wos taken to heaven,She did not wear a sin,so She did not need to die first…
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This is circular reasoning.

You are basing your belief that she did not die on the belief that she had no sin.

Some one else might base their belief that she did not sin on the belief that she did not die.

We still have to reconcile our beliefs against scripture and tradition, our beliefs must be rooted in one or the other - if not both. Human logic or imagination divorced from the faith handed to us from the Apostles is not good enough, indeed it can be dangerous.

Scripture is indeed silent on the subject. Perhaps for the same reason it is largely silent about most of her life, she was not theologically very important at the time of the compositon of the New Testament.

So we are left with tradition, and here the information is very strong and unequivocal: she died. There is so much certainty of this that the only dispute is over the location of her tomb, which shows us clearly that there was a consensus on the subject of her death. There was no ‘third option’.

Whatever we believe about the nature of First Sin of Adam, the efficacy of baptism for the forgiveness of sins and the general sinlessness of the Holy Theotokos it has to conform to the Christian historical accounts that she died and was buried, and we have to do this without adding to the deposit of Faith with our collective or individual imaginations.
 
Thank you for the replies everyone! 🙂

the date for the Council is around the 400s… (I have to look it up)

here’s something i’ve been wondering about… either way, Mary is sinless. If Catholicism is true, then she is sinless because she was exempt from original sin and never committed personal sin. If Orthodoxy is true, then she is sinless because there’s no such thing as original sin and she never committed any personal sin. If sin leads to death, it makes no sense to me why Mary died… that is my question… I do believe that Mary is sinless… I realize that we dont know if she died or not. Maybe for her, death was different. But if she died, on what basis did that happen, if the council says that it’s sin and not our nature that leads to death? or maybe the council was only talking about Adam?:confused:
 
Tradition makes it clear that she died-- it was only recently that some people started questioning her death. Yes, the end statement of the MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS does not say she died, but when one reads the entire document, it is clear that Pope Pius XII agreed with the tradition. Pope John Paul II wrote this in order to clear the matter up. He gives a reasonable explanation (IMO) of why she died.
 
thanks for the reply!
well I had a related sort of question… was Mary exempt from only original sin, of from original sin AND its effects/fruits? (such as sickness, etc). If Mary was sinless but subject to the effects of Adam’s sin, then it makes sense why she still died… even with the interpretation of that canon, which talks about Adam only. If Mary was not subject to the effects of original sin, and didn’t have original or personal sin, - I dont know how to reconcile this with the canon… thanks!
 
Monica4316 said:
thanks for the reply!
well I had a related sort of question… was Mary exempt from only original sin, of from original sin AND its effects/fruits? (such as sickness, etc). If Mary was sinless but subject to the effects of Adam’s sin, then it makes sense why she still died… even with the interpretation of that canon, which talks about Adam only. If Mary was not subject to the effects of original sin, and didn’t have original or personal sin, - I dont know how to reconcile this with the canon… thanks!
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You would have to read up on the Immaculate Conception to be sure, but since she was cleansed at the moment of conception, I do not see how she would have the effects of original sin. Be that as it may, I’m not sure what your saying. Mary’s physical being may have not been subject to the consequences of original sin, but she was still subject to the Author of Life. At the time of His choosing (and, I suspect, her full knowledge and obedience) He could have taken her life at any time. In other words, her death need not have been from natural causes, but rather supernatural causes.
 
I see… well what I meant by the effects of original sin, is anything that came into the world as a result of that sin… such as death, illness, suffering, etc. My question is whether Mary didn’t have the guilt of original sin & concupiscence, or if she didn’t have the guilt/concupiscence nor was subject to its effects.
 
There’s an interesting book out there The Life of Mary as Seen by the Mystics that talks about her life. In it, they say that Mary was given a choice by God since she did not need to die, and chose to do what her Son did and died.

Of course, as a private revelation, there is no requirement to believe it. However, I think it makes a lot of logical sense and I choose to believe it.
 
AHapka said:
There’s an interesting book out there The Life of Mary as Seen by the Mystics that talks about her life. In it, they say that Mary was given a choice by God since she did not need to die, and chose to do what her Son did and died.

Of course, as a private revelation, there is no requirement to believe it. However, I think it makes a lot of logical sense and I choose to believe it.
Click to expand...
I think that makes a lot of sense too 🙂
 
Monica4316 said:
Hi,

I came across this quote from an early Church council at Carthage…

101 Can. 1. All the bishops established in the sacred synod of the Carthaginian Church have decided that whoever says that Adam, the first man, was made mortal, so that, whether he sinned or whether he did not sin, he would die in body, that is he would go out of the body not because of the merit of sin but by reason of the necessity of nature, * let him be anathema.

102 *Can. 2. Likewise it has been decided that whoever says that infants fresh from their mothers’ wombs ought not to be baptized, or says that they are indeed baptized unto the remission of sins, but that they draw nothing of the original sin from Adam, which is expiated in the bath of regeneration, whence it follows that in regard to them the form of baptism “unto the remission of sins” is understood as not true, but as false, let him be anathema. Since what the Apostle says: “Through one man sin entered into the world (and through sin death), and so passed into all men, in whom all have sinned” [cf. Rom. 5:12], must not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church spread everywhere has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who in themselves thus far have not been able to commit any sin, are therefore truly baptized unto the remission of sins, so that that which they have contracted from generation may be cleansed in them by regeneration. **

So on one hand, it really supports the doctrine of original sin… but there’s something else that’s confusing.

If it’s having sin that causes us to die, and Mary was without original sin, why did she die? I know that we don’t know if she died or not, and some theologians say she didn’t… but in the Eastern church, they generally believe this.

My question is… IF Mary died, how could this happen, if she was free from all sin?

btw this canon is also problematic for the Eastern Orthodox, not only because it supports original sin, but also because if original sin doesn’t exist and if Mary never committed any personal sin (as they believe), she couldn’t have died either. Yet they believe she did.

It also doesn’t explain why Christ died, (since He is sinless), and why we still die after we are cleansed of original sin in Baptism.

Can someone please help me understand what this canon is talking about? thanks! 🙂
Click to expand...
The quotes (highlighted) were a bit hard to find. They apparantly came from

Council of Carthage, 418

Canon 1 corresponds to Canon CIX

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xv.iv.iv.cx.html?highlight=adam,the,first,man#highlight

Canon 2 corresponds to Canon CX

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xv.iv.iv.cxi.html?highlight=baptism#highlight

All the canons of the council are listed in the far left column.
 
AHapka said:
There’s an interesting book out there The Life of Mary as Seen by the Mystics that talks about her life. In it, they say that Mary was given a choice by God since she did not need to die, and chose to do what her Son did and died.

Of course, as a private revelation, there is no requirement to believe it. However, I think it makes a lot of logical sense and I choose to believe it.
Click to expand...
Except that there is absolutely nothing to base such a theory on.

We cannot imagine that God gave her a choice whether to die or not, it doesn’t matter how logical that seems to you, that is inventing, and there is nothing worse we can do than to add to the beliefs of people though our imaginations.

There goes the integrity of Truth, and once we admit that we are doing that, we stand justly accused of manufacturing.

If we don’t know, we just don’t know and we should admit it … live with the paradox, don’t invent.
 
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