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Charlemagne_III
Guest
Why did Satan rebel against God? 
Is there anything more than sheer speculation to explain why?
Is there anything more than sheer speculation to explain why?
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UbiCaritas15
Guest
All I can tell you is what I was taught, which is I think, speculation…?
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livingwordunity
Guest
Here’s what it says about it in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS
391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”. The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: “The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.”
392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.
393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.”
394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls “a murderer from the beginning”, who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father. “The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.” In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God.
395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God’s reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but “we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him.” (Source)
II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS
391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”. The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: “The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.”
392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.
393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.”
394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls “a murderer from the beginning”, who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father. “The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.” In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God.
395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God’s reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but “we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him.” (Source)
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bben15
Guest
Satan and all the angels were given free will, and they chose to rebel instead of obey God. They did not want to live under His laws for all eternity, and chose to separate themselves from Him.
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jaimeleglise
Guest
I was told by my spiritual director (a priest) years ago that God may have shown Satan an image of Jesus on the cross and said “This is my Son, adore him” Satan, rebelled out of pride, not wanting to worship someone in the form of a man. This is probably speculation by one or more of our great theologians.
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UbiCaritas15
Guest
I was told it was the Incarnation
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powerofk
Guest
I had heard that it was speculated that the angels had been shown God’s entire divine plan. Key to that plan was that the angels were to be servants of men. Lucifer thought of men as inferior to angels, and refused to be a servant to “lesser beings”. He led a rebellion against God made of 1/3 of the angels (the dominions, powers, and thrones) - even creating a rival throne HIGHER than God. Michael and the angels loyal to God fought a war against Lucifer and the angels loyal to him, casting them out of Heaven and into the abode of Hell, which was created by God as a prison for the fallen angels. Satan’s fall was primarily due to his own pride and vainglory, and he has declared God and humanity to be his enemy for all time. Yet Satan shudders in fear just by hearing the name of God. He worships himself, yet knows that the true power belongs to God Himself. As such, Satan’s only power over man comes through tricking men into rejecting God.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
Thanks for all your comments.
One wonders why Satan, who was an angel, and supposedly one of the elite among the angels, could have been so proud as not to see that his destiny and final abode would be something like what it became … hell. That is, why could he not see what Michael could see, that his own glory was to partake in glorifying God rather than himself? Since there was no devil before Satan, the temptation to rebel had to come from within. At least Adam and Eve were tempted and tricked by Satan. Satan only tricked himself. The supreme trickster, lying to himself and believing his own lies.
Does anybody know why the prayer to St. Michael was officially discouraged after Vatican II? Especially considering the remark attributed to Pope Paul VI that the smoke of Satan had entered the Vatican.
One wonders why Satan, who was an angel, and supposedly one of the elite among the angels, could have been so proud as not to see that his destiny and final abode would be something like what it became … hell. That is, why could he not see what Michael could see, that his own glory was to partake in glorifying God rather than himself? Since there was no devil before Satan, the temptation to rebel had to come from within. At least Adam and Eve were tempted and tricked by Satan. Satan only tricked himself. The supreme trickster, lying to himself and believing his own lies.
Does anybody know why the prayer to St. Michael was officially discouraged after Vatican II? Especially considering the remark attributed to Pope Paul VI that the smoke of Satan had entered the Vatican.
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z_0101
Guest
Pride as in Love, can blind the will. Why, do we, fallen, and yet knowing, still commit sin? I do, I do not intend to; however, unlike Lucifer, I “swallow my pride” and go to reconciliation – an act that either Lucifer was apparently unwilling or unable to do.
Not to hijack the thread, I would like to see you start a new thread with the information pertaining to where you heard/read about this? The only references to removing this devotion that I have ever ran across have been in anti-Catholic/Christian documents disseminated by radical groups or those that have a particular… liking for the fallen such as Satanic cults usually as part of a manifesto to weaken the Church.
One of the Churches in town after every Mass recites the prayer to St Michael for almost the last 100 years (blessed to have such an old established parish!) and we recite it after the Childrens Masses that are held for our PRE/CCD classes and have done so for many decades/
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Amandil
Guest
I think that the idea that Lucifer, along with all the angels, was introduced to the divine Word, the Son, and that it was revealed to the angels that the Son would assume corporeal form and was still to be adored like the Father.
It was the idea of a pure spirit having to worship a creature that spawned Lucifer’s rebellion.
This idea mainly comes from Milton’s “Paradise Lost”. If you’re not into following classical English prose, they also have an audio book version that’s not to bad to listen to.
It was the idea of a pure spirit having to worship a creature that spawned Lucifer’s rebellion.
This idea mainly comes from Milton’s “Paradise Lost”. If you’re not into following classical English prose, they also have an audio book version that’s not to bad to listen to.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
I’m familiar with Paradise Lost, but I think the point you make here was covered by Aquinas, and maybe it was introduced further back, but I don’t know when or by whom.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
Most likely by St. Augustine.
C
Charlemagne_III
Guest
“Adam was but human–this explains it all. He did not want the apple for the apple’s sake, he wanted it only because it was forbidden. The mistake was in not forbidding the serpent; then he would have eaten the serpent.” - Mark Twain
T
Thorns
Guest
Where did Lucifers rebelliousness come from? Before the devil, it seems there was no evil in existence. So from where did the temptation of pride come from to tempt Lucifer? And why would a good spirit be weak (not having the same wounded nature of humans after the Fall) ?
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
This is a great question you have asked. Did God tempt Satan by showing him a vision of Christ Crucified and by inviting Satan to worship his Son on the Cross? Did Satan refuse because he thought it was beneath his dignity to worship a human?
Is that why we say in the Lord’s Prayer, “Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil”?
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tonyrey
Guest
“Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.” - Lord Acton.
God has created His children - who of course include angels - in His own image and likeness. He has given us the scientifically inexplicable ability to choose whether to love others or live for ourselves. In this life there is abundant evidence of the lust for the power which can override every other consideration and transform men into monsters who deceive, exploit, torture and kill their brothers and sisters.
Every advantage has a corresponding disadvantage. In this case the greatest gift we have - which enables us to forget ourselves and sacrifice ourselves for others - can be distorted into the greatest evil there is and the source of more suffering than anything else in the world. It is the perversion and antithesis of divine goodness and creativity. Satan was not compelled to rebel but neither was he compelled to adore his Father. He worships himself and derives great pleasure from the thought that he has become like God and is supreme master of his own destiny owing allegiance to no one. Hell has its compensations: otherwise no one would opt for a state of “splendid” isolation!
God has created His children - who of course include angels - in His own image and likeness. He has given us the scientifically inexplicable ability to choose whether to love others or live for ourselves. In this life there is abundant evidence of the lust for the power which can override every other consideration and transform men into monsters who deceive, exploit, torture and kill their brothers and sisters.
Every advantage has a corresponding disadvantage. In this case the greatest gift we have - which enables us to forget ourselves and sacrifice ourselves for others - can be distorted into the greatest evil there is and the source of more suffering than anything else in the world. It is the perversion and antithesis of divine goodness and creativity. Satan was not compelled to rebel but neither was he compelled to adore his Father. He worships himself and derives great pleasure from the thought that he has become like God and is supreme master of his own destiny owing allegiance to no one. Hell has its compensations: otherwise no one would opt for a state of “splendid” isolation!
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
I like this quote. Thankfully,the “great” men referred to are men of influence, rather than men of character.
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z_0101
Guest
Thank you for the link. I have a lot of reading to do!
However, in the first such article I read to follow up on your link, I ran across this and thought that you might find this interesting then:
catholicherald.com/stories/St-Michael-Guardian-of-the-Church,6470
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
Thank you for the citation. Interesting article, yet it never suggests why the prayer to St. Michael was suppressed when it was in 1968.
Just a thought. That was the year of Woodstock and the start of the Age of Aquarius?
The rise of modern paganism in America.
Just a thought. That was the year of Woodstock and the start of the Age of Aquarius?
The rise of modern paganism in America.
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