Why did Saudi Arabia ban Bible?

[exoflare]

Edris:

Peace Brother

Prophet Aaron (brother of Moses pbuh) is mentioned 19times in the Qur’an and Prophet Moses pbuh is mentioned 134 times. All verses that mention Prophet Aaron he’s mentioned in conjunction with his brother Moses, except 1 verse (Qur’an 4:163) where Prophet Aaron is mentioned with 10 other prophets in the same verse, but prophet Moses is not mentioned there (but we know that the Aaron in this verse 4:163 is a Prophet). Also in Surah 20, verses 9 to 100, talks about the story of Prophets Moses and Aaron when God sent them to Pharaoh, so we know also who is Aaron here, the same one (The Prophet and Brother of Moses).

The only Verse in the Qur’an where the name Aaron is mentioned without his brother Moses or any other prophet is this verse (Qur’an 19:28) “O sister of Aaron……”, so without getting near the interpretation of the Qur’an we know that this Aaron is not the same as Prophet Aaron, cause he could’ve said “O sister of Aaron and Moses ……” or maybe “O sister of Moses….”.

Now open any one of the four books of the Qur’an interpretation (Al-Jalalain, Al-Kurtubi, At-Tabari, and Ebn Kathir) they all say the same story that some Muslims in the time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh, thought that this Aaron was Prophet Aaron brother of Moses, so they went to Muhammad pbuh and asked him about it, he said that he was a pious man at the time of Mary, and that the Jews at that time used this name a lot specially for the pious. And Mary pbuh used to pray and devout like him. [This is why they called her sister of Aaron, no blood relation, just an indication that they where the same in devotion to God].

I hope this clears the issue, if not, I don’t mind to discuss it further and even go through them verse by verse (19 verses of prophet Aaron and the 1 verse of Aaron the pious man)

It looks like Luigi started explaining the verses you asked about already, although I haven’t had a chance to look at that yet. Anyway what you said still doesn’t answer my question. Why is it important that some random person named Aaron was just mentioned for no reason here? How do you know that the words “brother” or “sister” are ever used to mean someone who is the same in level of piousness? I’ve never heard any definition of the word remotely like this. Is there any evidence this interpretation of the word was ever used elsewhere, or that the name “Aaron” was some sort of title given to the pious?

It really sounds to me from what you said that Mohammed was just trying to talk his way out of an obvious mistake here and his followers at the time were only all too ready to accept any explanation given.

 

[Edris]

exoflare:

Anyway what you said still doesn’t answer my question

Peace brother

Your Question was one sentence where else is this “Aaron” you speak of mentioned?

As I said in my lengthy answer he was mentioned once, and without any relation to Prophet Moses or an indication that this Aaron in the verse was a prophet.

Now you have other questions:

1. Why is it important that some random person named Aaron was just mentioned for no reason here?

In one of the books of Interpretation (At-Tabari), it says that Aaron the pious was well known that on the day he died, 40,000 Jews went to burry his body. And all four books of the Qur’an Interpretation as I mentioned before say that Maryam (pbuh) used to worship God like him. (This is why they called her sister of Aaron).
The reason he’s mentioned is because Maryam (pbuh) brought Jesus (pbuh) child, and she didn’t have a husband, so the Jewish where shocked and said “Oh sister of Aaron, your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor your mother was an unchaste woman” (Qur’an 19:28), so they couldn’t believe that Maryam who was very devoted to God like Aaron (the pious man) could do such a thing.

1. How do you know that the words “brother” or “sister” are ever used to mean someone who is the same in level of piousness?

I have many examples from the Qur’an and Prophet Muhammad’s sayings (ahadith),
But, I guess one verse is enough to answer your question.

“The believers are nothing else than brothers. So make reconciliation between your brothers, and fear Allâh, that you may receive mercy.” (Qur’an 49:10)

1. I’ve never heard any definition of the word remotely like this. Is there any evidence this interpretation of the word was ever used elsewhere, or that the name “Aaron” was some sort of title given to the pious?

As the prophet pbuh said the name was used a lot at that time, so it’s not a surprising coincidence that Maryam used to emulate someone called Aaron in worshiping God. In Islam the Sunni use the name Muhammad and Ahmad a lot. The Shiiaa on the other hand use the names Ali, Hasan, and Husein. It’s not surprising to find many mosque imams’ called Muhammad or Ali. (I guess maybe we should consult a Jewish source on this one, I’ll see what i can do, and if you have Jewish friends maybe you could help).

1. It really sounds to me from what you said that Mohammed was just trying to talk his way out of an obvious mistake here and his followers at the time were only all too ready to accept any explanation given.

I still don’t know why you find it hard to understand?. And How is it an obvious mistake?, the story of Maryam pbuh is mentioned a number of times in the Qur’an, from different angles (each time for a specific reason for a special wisdom to take, not just a repetition) and they don’t contradict with each other. A whole chapter in the Qur’an is called (The Family of Imran) chapter 3 inwhich more information about Maryam (pbuh) is given, like for example it talks about her family, why her mother sent her to Jerusalem in the first place, how did Prophet Zakayah (pbuh) adopted her, etc. there’s even many things that we know about her that Jews and Christians have no clue about.
There is something else I have to point out, Allah promised the Muslims 3 things: 1-To protect the Qur’an from distortion (fabrication), 2-To Protect Prophet Muhammad from being killed (like for example assassination etc., which was tried a number of times by the Jews and the infidels of Quraish) 3-To explain to us the meaning of the Qur’an.
The three promises about the Qur’an and the Messenger where fulfilled. “It is for Us to collect it and to give you (O Muhammad) the ability to recite it (the Qur’ân), And when We have recited it to you (O Muhammad through Gabriel), then follow you its (the Qur’ân’s) recital. Then it is for Us (Allâh) to make it clear to you,” (Qur’an 75:17-19) , So the details of who Aaron in this verse was (the prophet or the pious man) is from Allah, he explained to him. The explanation of the verses used to be revealed to the prophet after the verses where revealed. So in many occasions the prophet and the companions used to guess on the meaning of the verse until Allah reveals it’s meaning (which from the ahadith we know that sometimes it used to take up to a day).

Peace

 

[Edris]

cute2904:

Yes thats right. Thanks alot. Just not wish someone call me liar.

I didn’t call u a liar i said “not that i’m saying that you are a liar or anything”, but i just like to know where the stories came from. I know there are bad muslims i didn’t deny it , does that make my religion a false religion? of course not. second of all you called prophet Muhammad pbuh a liar in a previous post. and i know it’s because of your frustration. Let me give you something to think about:

(1st Epistle John 4:1-3) “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God: and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God….”

I have to point out that the word “flesh” is translated from the Latin word “sarx” which also means “Human nature” or specifically “Human being”.

First of all Jesus (pbuh) gave u a test to apply on prophets, to know if the man is a true prophet or a false prophet. If he gave u a test to apply then he didn’t deny that there is going to be a prophet after him. Why don’t you apply this test on Muhammad (pbuh), instead of accusing him that he’s a liar.

This is what the Qur’an says:

   “(Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allâh gives you the glad tidings of a Word "Be!" - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be **the Messiah (Christ) 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary)**, held in honor in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allâh."  (Qur’an 3:45)

  “Verily, the likeness of 'Iesa (Jesus) before Allâh is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was.”    (Qur’an 3:59) 

   From the Qur'an we (Muslims) believe in Jesus the Messiah (Christ), the son of Mary.    And that he is the like of Adam (pbuh) (a human being).   Does someone who confesses this, is a true spirit or a false spirit?  Yes or NO.

Peace

 

[cute2904]

Edris:

I didn’t call u a liar i said “not that i’m saying that you are a liar or anything”, but i just like to know where the stories came from. I know there are bad muslims i didn’t deny it , does that make my religion a false religion? of course not. second of all you called prophet Muhammad pbuh a liar in a previous post. and i know it’s because of your frustration. Let me give you something to think about:

I’m not frustrating. I just want people to know how evil your faith is. Of course there are bad and good people in every religion. God create people good. Bad society, environment and doctrine that influenced them to do evil thing and lost their conscience. They kill people too in many case. But Muslim people killing non muslims, infidels, kaffurs in the name of Allah. Burnt and destroy churches/temples by chanting allahuakbar… Not happy when heard some of them converted into other faith, instead of making their faith more human, they do otherwise. Isnt that a false religion?

 

[Edris]

cute2904:

I’m not frustrating.** I just want people to know how evil your faith is.** Of course there are bad and good people in every religion. God create people good. Bad society, environment and doctrine that influenced them to do evil thing and lost their conscience. They kill people too in many case. But Muslim people killing non muslims, infidels, kaffurs in the name of Allah. Burnt and destroy churches/temples by chanting allahuakbar… Not happy when heard some of them converted into other faith, instead of making their faith more human, they do otherwise. Isnt that a false religion?

 I apologize for my christian brothers and sisters,  this reply is for cute2904  only.    There you go is this what you want?

michiganatheists.org/events/caro/caro.html

The Christian Inquisition used torture routinely to obtain confessions. Here boiling oil is poured into the victim’s mouth as a clergyman takes notes. After being subjected to such abuse, the confessions must have consisted of screams of pain and writhing in agony.
Millions of people throughout history have been maimed, tortured, and killed in the name of religion, but the Christian Inquisition is of particular importance to us today. The Christian church still exists and could lapse into barbarism, hate, and intolerance again. Simply read the words of its hate-mongers:
Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue:
“I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good… Our goal is a Christian Nation. We have a Biblical duty; we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don’t want equal time. We don’t want pluralism. ”

Jerry Falwell, founder of the Moral Majority: “Just give me the Supreme Court.”

Ralph Reed, former executive director of the Christian Coalition:
“I do guerrilla warfare. I paint my face and travel at night. You don’t know until you’re in a body bag. You don’t know till election night.”

Pat Robertson, GOP presidential candidate, 1988:
“When the Christian majority takes over this country, there will be no more satanic churches, no more free distribution of pornography, no more abortion on demand, and no more talk of rights for homosexuals. After the Christian majority takes control, pluralism will be seen as immoral and evil and the state will not allow anyone to practice it. ”

Once your confession is over, the Christian church confiscates your home, your belongings, and moves on to the next victim. The clergy and local government officials will enjoy your money and belongings, leaving your family destitute.

D. Anglo-American Allies:
 Bombing of Germany: >305,000 (1945 US Strategic Bombing Survey); 400,000 (Hammond); 410,000 (Rummel, 100% democidal); 499,750 (Clodfelter); 593,000 (Keegan; also Grenville citing “official Germany”); 600,000 (P. Johnson)
 Bombing of Japan:
 Conventional: 260,000 (Clodfelter (citing an Official US est.); Keegan; P. Johnson); 299,484 (Clodfelter, citing Japanese source)
 Nuclear: 103,000 died outright (Keegan); 130,000 outright (Messenger);120,000 outright, 140,000 later (Our Times); 175,000 outright, 100,000 later (P. Johnson)
 Total: 330,000 (1945 US Strategic Bombing Survey); 363,000 (Keegan, not including post-war radiation sickness); 374,000 (Rummel, incl. 337,000 democidal); 435,000 (P. Johnson); 500,000 (Harper Collins Atlas of the Second World War)
You can continue reading the very long list in the link below:

*Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century Hemoclysm
users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm

*(Possibly) The Twenty (or so) Worst Things People Have Done to Each Other:users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm
not a single muslim involved in it.

Peace

 

[cute2904]

Thank you Edris to quote such a useful information for me. No, that is not what I want, moreover bad Christian.

First Christian Inquisition used to torture routinely to obtain confession was old history. We learn that was wrong. Church made mistake in the past… alot!. I hope you heard about the Vatican Council II and also pope John Paul II (pbuh) already asked for aplogize regarding what Christian did in the past. No where in the bible Jesus command us to kill non believer.

Christian church will still exists and will not colaps into barbarism, hate and intolerance.The funny is, what Terry, Falwell, Reed, and Robertson state here, more/less exactly the same like what some muslimsleaders said over here in my country. Those people you mentioned are fundamentalist. They got money with the ministries they build. Its all about the money. Have you seen one of them blow a city in US with bomb? Have you seen them they torture their follower who convert into another faith? Not because they have nothing violent (physically) doesnt mean they are right as well though. Other sites you put here also give us alot of information. The numbers there also explain about victims of wars.

What happened in Sudan? what happen in Iran and Iraq, what happen in Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia, Beslan, Spain, London, etc etc?. Kindly you can explain that to me. If you Islam is a peace religion, then please no make war but love. Do not feel superior among other faiths. Every one has right to do and to believe what we want to believe. Every Fasting season(Ramadhan), Pope John Paul (pbuh) always greets the muslim in order to do their religious thing. We christian here, always respect them when they are fasting. but Do they greets us when Christmas or Easter come? No. They said We are kaffir, so if they greets us, then they undirectly believe that Jesus was God and die for us. Their imam teach them so according to my muslim friends. Christianity did something bad in the past. We learn from that. Hopefully we become a better person in the future. I want to see Islam develope like Christianity as well, where let people think freely, not brainwashed them. Because once people kill in the name of God, then it is the doctrine that is wrong not the person. Unless you change and be better.

 

[cute2904]

Edris:

(1st Epistle John 4:1-3) “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God: and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God….”

I have to point out that the word “flesh” is translated from the Latin word “sarx” which also means “Human nature” or specifically “Human being”.

First of all Jesus (pbuh) gave u a test to apply on prophets, to know if the man is a true prophet or a false prophet. If he gave u a test to apply then he didn’t deny that there is going to be a prophet after him. Why don’t you apply this test on Muhammad (pbuh), instead of accusing him that he’s a liar.

This is what the Qur’an says:

“(Remember) when the angels said: “O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allâh gives you the glad tidings of a Word “Be!” - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah (Christ) 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honor in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allâh.” (Qur’an 3:45)

“Verily, the likeness of 'Iesa (Jesus) before Allâh is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: “Be!” - and he was.” (Qur’an 3:59)

From the Qur’an we (Muslims) believe in Jesus the Messiah (Christ), the son of Mary. And that he is the like of Adam (pbuh) (a human being). Does someone who confesses this, is a true spirit or a false spirit? Yes or NO.

Peace

Jesus really come into the wold in a form of human body. But he’s from God. And yes I dont see anything strange with the verse you quote from 1 John 4:1-3. Have you read the rest verses? let me quote it for you :

(1John 4:4-15)

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us,** because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him**. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Your reason to tell that Jesus is human being only like the rest of the prophets is weak. John explains in his letter that “God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.” If you confess that Jesus is just like Adam (completely human being and not Son of God) therefore you have a false spirit according to Christianity faith. John said “Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him and he in God.” You quote the verses from bible YET you dont accept term Son of God YET you said our scripture already fabricated. Said we christian has no clue about many things regarding jews and christians, while we can claim that your prophet copied the approcrypal books for your Quran.

 

[cute2904]

Check out what I found from my source :

---

Here is what Ibn Kathir narrated:

It was narrated from Ibn Jarir, narrated from Yaqub, narrated from Ibn U’laya, narrated from Sa’id Ibn Abi Sadaqa, narrated from Muhammad Ibn Sireen who stated that he was told that Ka’b said the verse that reads, “O sister of Harun (Aaron)!” (of Sura 19:28) does not refer to Aaron the brother of Moses. Aisha replied to Ka’b, "YOU HAVE LIED." Ka’b’s responded, “O Mother of the believers! If the prophet, may Allah’s prayers be upon him, has said it, and he is more knowledgeable, then this is what he related. Besides, I find the difference in time between them (Jesus and Moses) to be 600 years.” He said that she remained silent.

Aisha, whom Muslims claim was one of the most knowledgeable persons of Islam, clearly understood the expression, “Sister of Aaron,” to refer to Moses’ brother Aaron, i.e. understanding that Mary the mother of Jesus was the sister of Moses and Aaron, which would make Moses Jesus’ maternal uncle! More specifically, she understood this phrase to be literally saying that Mary was the actual, biological sister of Aaron, the brother of Moses. Although Kab was wrong regarding the length of the time gap between Jesus and Moses, he was correct to see the problem and dilemma that Muhammad’s words caused.

The Arabic Muslim who came to Najran, and spoke with the Christians, did not know that the term was metaphorical. When confronted with the mistake he was dumbfounded! He had to go and see Muhammad to find out why there was a mistake in the Quran. Had he known that it was a metaphorical idiom, he would not have had to go and see Muhammad; he could have told the Najran Christians the meaning of the metaphor. Instead, the Muslim was confused because he also understood the passage to mean that Mary was Aaron’s literal sister.

In Sahih Muslim, the Hadith related by Mughirah ibn Shu’bah, #5326, says:

“When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read “Sister of Harun”, (i.e. Mary), in the Qur’an, whereas Moses was born well before Jesus. When I came back to Allah’s Messenger I asked him about that, and he said: “The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostle and pious persons who had gone before them.”” [Sahih Muslim, translated by Abdul Siddiqi].

In sum, the Christians understood the Arabic of the Quran to mean a literal brother and sister relationship between Aaron and Mary. Further, they did not recognize the idiom “sister of Aaron” when Muhammad used it with respect to Mary. In fact, the term, “sister of Aaron” was abnormal to them when applied to anyone other than Aaron’s real sister - Miriam. Further the Arabic Muslim, Mughira Shu’bah, also did not know this idiom was metaphorical. He also understood it to be literal. When told of the error, he was confused. and went to see Muhammad to get an answer.

 

[cute2904]

continue…

There is no one metaphorically referred to in the Bible as any of the above. Moses was truly a great Israelite leader. Certainly if the Jews were going to call people “brother” or “sister” after saints of old, Moses would get his fair share of people identified with him. I would expect that he would get a larger amount of people called after him than Aaron would. But, no where, is it found in the Bible that anyone is called, “brother of Moses”, “sister of Aaron”, etc.

A Messianic Christian to do some searching of Judaic material for a idiom like “sister of Aaron”, or “brother of Moses”. He first checked with a number of Judaic scholars. None of them ever heard of an idiom like the one in question used in that way. He then checked on two books which draw on a wide range of material relation to Kaballah in connection with Jewish Messianic aspirations:

1. Gershom Scholem’s book on Messiah “Sabatai Sevi”
2. “The Messiah of Ismir” by Joseph Kastein.

Neither of these had any reference to the idiom in question.

He then examined the “Jewish Encyclopedia”, by Funk and Wagnalls, a 12 volume set. He found nothing directly relating to the idiom’s use. He followed the history and legends concerning Aaron’s rod up to reports that Joseph (Jesus’ earthly father) cane into its possession and took it to Egypt with him. Again, he found nothing that related to the idiom in question. He searched through the Ency. references on Mary. Again nothing showed up that relates to the idiom.

He checked through the Midrash Rabbah on Exodus, and again, found nothing in support of Muhammad’s model.

He checked through the Bablyonia Talmud, and found nothing with respect to the idiom in question.

All in all, he checked through a great deal of material. Again I’ll note that he is very well read in Judaic writings, as are the scholars with whom he has interfaced. None of them have ever heard of the an idiom like “sister of Aaron” or “brother of Moses” used metaphorically.

 

[sainted]

Edris:

I apologize for my christian brothers and sisters, this reply is for cute2904 only. There you go is this what you want?
michiganatheists.org/events/caro/caro.html

*Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century Hemoclysm
users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm

*(Possibly) The Twenty (or so) Worst Things People Have Done to Each Other:users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm
not a single muslim involved in it.

Peace

I rather like your choice of sources. What truth can come from an atheist? Don’t you know they are against govenment, law and order and religion especially the existence of God. They wish we’re done away with these things so we can live in a lawless society. Do you rely on them for truth then??

Please refer to this for a more realistic account of the inquisition:
www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm

You are right though that, “not a single muslim involved in it.” I can only imagine the author of your sources was living on Mars during the Islam conquest.

 

[exoflare]

Okay the whole Mary/Aaron topic was sort of forming into a tangent, so I started another thread on it.

 

[exoflare]

Edris:

I wish you do some explanation too regarding Mathew (1:1), Luke (3:23), and Mark (1:1). And just a side question if as in Mathew (1:1) Jesus is the Son of David, the Son of Abraham. Then how come in John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham, was I am. !!!

Sorry I didn’t respond to this part earlier. I saw that LuigiColetta had already started explaining those verses and you hadn’t responded yet so I assumed there were no further questions. If you still want to talk about these verses, just let me know.