Why did she say this? It drives me crazy!

[CatholicofAgora]

Your sentence saying that “she said that its not about my religion but my own beliefs” made me picture her saying, “It’s not about your religion, IT’S ABOUT WHAT YOU BELIEVE!!” To truly make sense of it. Your Grandmother, peace and blessings be with her for Jesus’ name, seems to not perceive “your religion” i.e. the religious sect you belong to (that being Roman Catholicism) as the same thing as “what you believe.” I’ve dealt with this mindset as I was coming into the Church. You discover great things retained in the vessels of the deposit of faith and all anyone else sees whenever you try to show it to them is “religion.” Why? Because that’s the way that people perceive Catholics. Would you see “religion” if your Grandmother talked to you about being saved by grace through faith alone or about talking “in-tounges” with the Holy Spirit? Of course not, because Pentecostalism isn’t a “traditional” form of Christianity and doesn’t have all the creeds and traditions to have it be perceived as this stereotypical idea of a “religious branch.” The best advice that I can give is to live your faith and pray that your Grandmother will find childlike humility so that God will give her more faith to open her eyes. She opposes you right off to bat because she has this “I’ve seen this before” mentality about your “religion.” Do not engage in heated quarrels that see no end, because there isn’t one. You’ll just have to agree to disagree and pray for a reconciled future.

 

[MaeganFlinchum1]

Your sentence saying that “she said that its not about my religion but my own beliefs” made me picture her saying, “It’s not about your religion, IT’S ABOUT WHAT YOU BELIEVE!!” To truly make sense of it. Your Grandmother, peace and blessings be with her for Jesus’ name, seems to not perceive “your religion” i.e. the religious sect you belong to (that being Roman Catholicism) as the same thing as “what you believe.” I’ve dealt with this mindset as I was coming into the Church. You discover great things retained in the vessels of the deposit of faith and all anyone else sees whenever you try to show it to them is “religion.” Why? Because that’s the way that people perceive Catholics. Would you see “religion” if your Grandmother talked to you about being saved by grace through faith alone or about talking “in-tounges” with the Holy Spirit? Of course not, because Pentecostalism isn’t a “traditional” form of Christianity and doesn’t have all the creeds and traditions to have it be perceived as this stereotypical idea of a “religious branch.” The best advice that I can give is to live your faith and pray that your Grandmother will find childlike humility so that God will give her more faith to open her eyes. She opposes you right off to bat because she has this “I’ve seen this before” mentality about your “religion.” Do not engage in heated quarrels that see no end, because there isn’t one. You’ll just have to agree to disagree and pray for a reconciled future.

thank you you are totally right

 

[CatholicofAgora]

thank you you are totally right

Lol no probs…

 

[ltwin]

ok so ever since i started RCIA my grandma has been super upset with me only she tries not to show it. anyway so the other night me and her were having a very heated discussion (she is Pentecostal-i used to be too) anyway so i was explaining Christ in the Eucharist and how He was truly present. I said something along the lines of"Catholics are the only ones who believe this" (by the way i i know LCMS and Orthodox,Episcopals do too) and she got sooooo mad!! she said that she also believed that Jesus was present in her own communion (not the Eucharist) i explained to her that her own church teaches that the grape juice and crackers are symbolic in pentecostalism. she said that its not about my religion but my own beliefs. what do i do??? i need help.

Are you sure she is aware that Catholics believe in transubstantiation? Your grandma may be thinking about Jesus being present in her communion in a spiritual sense. Its possitlb that to her, Jesus is truly present even if the elements are symbolic of his physical body. This is completely in line with classical Pentecostal theology.

At the same time, your grandma may have her own unique understanding of communion that includes a belief like Real Presence. For example, my mother is a lifelong Pentecostal. Before I was baptized a couple of years ago, I mentioned to someone that I wasn’t baptized yet. My mother looked at me and told me that I had been baptized as a baby. Anyone familiar with Pentecostals knows that we don’t baptized infants.Yet my mother remembered my baby dedication (which did involve sprinkling of water on my head and invocation of the Trinity) as a water baptism. Of course, it never occurred to her that me being baptized as an adult didn’t really make a lot of since if I was already baptized.

So, it is possible in a religion like Pentecostalism that things like this can happen. Pentecostals at heart are experiencers. We experience religion. We aren’t very big on thinking about and formulating our religious thoughts into an all encompassing theological scheme. So, you can get anomalies like this among individuals.

 

[MaeganFlinchum1]

Are you sure she is aware that Catholics believe in transubstantiation? Your grandma may be thinking about Jesus being present in her communion in a spiritual sense. Its possitlb that to her, Jesus is truly present even if the elements are symbolic of his physical body. This is completely in line with classical Pentecostal theology.

At the same time, your grandma may have her own unique understanding of communion that includes a belief like Real Presence. For example, my mother is a lifelong Pentecostal. Before I was baptized a couple of years ago, I mentioned to someone that I wasn’t baptized yet. My mother looked at me and told me that I had been baptized as a baby. Anyone familiar with Pentecostals knows that we don’t baptized infants.Yet my mother remembered my baby dedication (which did involve sprinkling of water on my head and invocation of the Trinity) as a water baptism. Of course, it never occurred to her that me being baptized as an adult didn’t really make a lot of since if I was already baptized.

So, it is possible in a religion like Pentecostalism that things like this can happen. Pentecostals at heart are experiencers. We experience religion. We aren’t very big on thinking about and formulating our religious thoughts into an all encompassing theological scheme. So, you can get anomalies like this among individuals.

thanks!! i hope thats what she meant. its just been hard because of differnces

 

[Qwestions]

Maegan, page through books for children that explain the Sacrifice of the Mass, the Sacraments, priest vestments, sacramentals, saints and other aspects of our faith. If your church has a book store, they may have some there, or you might check with the K-3 grades if you have a school. Often, the concepts explained in these books for youngsters are perfect for verbalizing to non-Catholics whom we want so much to understand us. Reading those simple little books a few times lets the explanations roll more easily from your lips, although they might be offended if you actually show them those beginner books. That would depend upon the individual situation. After explaining that the children’s books give a quick over-all view, I like to let my non-Catholic friends look over the books before Mass, so they’ll have an idea of what they’re witnessing. If there’s time before Mass, I walk them around explaining such things as the Stations of the Cross, lighting candles before statues, and the Sacred Repository. Usually, though, we do that after the Mass. Maybe Grandma or some of the others with whom you’ve had conversations will want to accompany you to Mass. Best of luck to you! I think we’re all impressed by your zeal and by your ready willingness to consider the viewpoints of others, which is very admirable, Maegan. Keep the faith, Girl!

 

[MaeganFlinchum1]

Maegan, page through books for children that explain the Sacrifice of the Mass, the Sacraments, priest vestments, sacramentals, saints and other aspects of our faith. If your church has a book store, they may have some there, or you might check with the K-3 grades if you have a school. Often, the concepts explained in these books for youngsters are perfect for verbalizing to non-Catholics whom we want so much to understand us. Reading those simple little books a few times lets the explanations roll more easily from your lips, although they might be offended if you actually show them those beginner books. That would depend upon the individual situation. After explaining that the children’s books give a quick over-all view, I like to let my non-Catholic friends look over the books before Mass, so they’ll have an idea of what they’re witnessing. If there’s time before Mass, I walk them around explaining such things as the Stations of the Cross, lighting candles before statues, and the Sacred Repository. Usually, though, we do that after the Mass. Maybe Grandma or some of the others with whom you’ve had conversations will want to accompany you to Mass. Best of luck to you! I think we’re all impressed by your zeal and by your ready willingness to consider the viewpoints of others, which is very admirable, Maegan. Keep the faith, Girl!

thank you sooo much! i might just do that!

 

[Nan_S]

The Pentecostals I knew (including one of their preachers) explained that the bread or crackers and the grape juice were merely bread/crackers and grape juice, even though prayers were offered over them. Leftovers and crumbs went out in the garbage.

Consuming them in a desire to join with Christ was the important part. IOW, the act of consuming the elements as communion was necessary to consecrate them, and to have them become Body and Blood. No, they never did explain to my satisfaction where this idea came from. They did not agree with the Catholic position that consecration happened when the prayers of the priest were made over the elements.

Continuing along this line of thought, they then firmly maintained that they had truly received the Real Body and Real Blood of Christ. For them the act of taking and consuming the elements took it beyond being a symbolic or ethereal spiritual communion and made it into a real communion.

BTW, these Pentecostal friends were mostly “independent” Pentecostals. I don’t know the official teaching of the United Pentecostal Church.

 

[ltwin]

The Pentecostals I knew (including one of their preachers) explained that the bread or crackers and the grape juice were merely bread/crackers and grape juice, even though prayers were offered over them. Leftovers and crumbs went out in the garbage.

Yes. Pentecostals, in both formal theology and popular piety, hold that the elements remain bread and wine (grape juice) respectively.

Consuming them in a desire to join with Christ was the important part. IOW, the act of consuming the elements as communion was necessary to consecrate them, and to have them become Body and Blood. No, they never did explain to my satisfaction where this idea came from. They did not agree with the Catholic position that consecration happened when the prayers of the priest were made over the elements.

Continuing along this line of thought, they then firmly maintained that they had truly received the Real Body and Real Blood of Christ. For them the act of taking and consuming the elements took it beyond being a symbolic or ethereal spiritual communion and made it into a real communion.

BTW, these Pentecostal friends were mostly “independent” Pentecostals. I don’t know the official teaching of the United Pentecostal Church.

I think I’ll use the word’s of Myer Pearlman, a well known early Assemblies of God theologian, who wrote that communion is the most sacred rite of the church and a means of grace (along with things such as prayer, church attendance, and Bible reading) by which we grow spiritually as long as we take it “intelligibly”. He said,

Let us also remember that as we partake of the emblems we are to look beyond them, and beyond the server, and see the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, who said, ‘I am the Bread of Life’. Beyond the wine we must see His shed blood, which is His divine life poured out for us. The Head of the church will Himself administer the Sacrament, as we receive Him by faith.

Likewise, C.E. Bowen of the Church of God (Cleveland, TN) expresses the Pentecostal belief that there is healing power in the Sacrament (with the reverse also being true that if it is taken in an unworthy manner sickness can result):

… if we come together in faith to commemorate the death of Jesus Christ and in the proper order, we will not be weak and sickly as was the Corinthian Church. For if we are sick when we meet, we can be healed while we eat the bread *– * a symbol of his body *– * if our heart is right in the sight of God, and we discern the Lord’s body and it broken for us. Seeing the purpose and believing with all of our heart and accepting the provision made for us in the atonement, we can go away from this supper with strong bodies, possibly live a much longer life and a more useful life in the service of God.

(Quotes taken from Chris Green’s Toward a Pentecostal Theology of the Lord’s Supper, pp. 6-9)