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Capuchinfan1337
Guest
I was wondering why the SSPX split from the church. Did Vatican II make the Church “too soft”?
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PrayRosary
Guest
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LINVS
Guest
I guess “soft” is one way to put it. It started with getting rid of the Tridentine Mass. Then SSPX’s position got more critical of the Church as it lapsed into Liturgical Abuses, Sodomy, Child Abuse, and Marxism. It seems like there are plenty of SSPX members who are very content with their “irregular” status. That’s unfortunate because being content with irregular status is the same as founding one’s own religion. Of course SSPX sees Rome as leaving the Faith; not the other way around.
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Hasire
Guest
Not really, they just walled off. They believe the same as Catholics did 60 - 100 years ago. There’s no break off, their Faith is the same.
Yes, they see themselves as St. Athanasius did in the Arian Controversy. It was just him versus the World. It is very possible for the Church in its majority to fall to heresies (i.e. Arianism before, Modernism now), so their position is, at least, logical.
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George_Stegmeir
Guest
And like the “Old Catholic Church” which did not approve of Vatican I, these people will die out, as have all Church dissadents throughout history.
Self righteousness in place of obedience to legitimate Church Authority is the heart and soul of spiritual delusion.
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Hasire
Guest
The Old Catholic denied Catholic dogma, the SSPX doesn’t. False analogy.
Dissidents? Yep, the Nestorians, the Monophysites and the Eastern Schimatics, all of them died out, yep.
St. Athanasius disobeyed legimate Church Authority, was he wrong?
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JReducation
Guest
Athanasius did not take on the Holy See. The SSPX did.
The split has nothing to do with the mass or Vatican II. Pope Benedict said this very clearly.
"Their excommunication has nothing to do with Vatican II, as I have already said, but had been pronounced on account of an offense against the primacy."
Light of the Word, pages 120-121
Why do people insist on saying things about the SSPX separation that are contrary to what the Pope says?
If we’re going to be faithful to the Holy Father, then let’s be faithful and call things as he calls them. No one knows better how this all started than he. He was the man who dealt with the issue under Pope John Paul II.
Until Archbishop Lefebvre broke with the primacy they were not excommunicated. When a bishop ordains another bishop without a papal mandate, he is violating the primacy of Peter. Those who accept to be ordained bishops are equally guilty. The penalty is excommunication.
When a man accepts ordination as a deacon from an excommunicated bishop, he is automatically suspended. When he goes up for priestly ordination, he is already a suspended cleric.
Therefore, all of his acts are illegal and his absolutions are invalid, except in immediate danger of death where there is no time to find a priest with faculties.
The excommunications were lifted, but the suspensions have remained in place.
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Hasire
Guest
Except that Pope Liberius excommunicated the Alexandrian Saint. So naturally the saint went against the directions of the Holy See. Or are you going to tell me the Athanasius did everything Rome told him to do? It was Athanasius Contra Mundum for a reason.
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JReducation
Guest
Athanasius stood against the Arian heresy. However, Athanasius did comply with the Holy See on everything outside of Arianism. In other words, he did not commit a violation against the primacy.
In this situation, there is no heresy involved. Therefore, there is a very serious violation against the primacy. We need to keep in mind that it’s three popes who said that these actions were a violation against the primacy. Three consecutive popes cannot be wrong on a point of Canon Law.
I am sure that some people be concerned out over the changes. Note that the Mass in different Rites of the Church have had changes to them over time (the Rite used by Constantinople is such an example). Here are some differences between the EF and the OF in the Offertory:
EF 1962 in English: “Accept, O Holy father, Almighty and Eternal God, this spotless host, which I, Your unworthy servant, offer to You, my living and true God, to atone for my numberless sins, offences, and negligences; on behalf of all here present and likewise for all faithful Christians living and dead, that it may profit me and them as a means of salvation to life everlasting. Amen.”
The OF, third edition: “Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation, for through your goodness we have received the bread we offer you: fruit of the earth and work of human hands, it will become for us the bread of life.”
EF 1962 in English: “We offer unto Thee, O Lord, the chalice of salvation, entreating Thy mercy that our offering may ascend with a sweet fragrance in the sight of Thy divine Majesty, for our own salvation, and for that of the whole world. Amen.”
The OF, third edition: “Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation, for through your goodness we have received the wine we offer you: fruit of the vine and work of human hands, it will become our spiritual drink.”
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Timothysis
Guest
Perhaps you missed Brother JR’s post:
*"The split has nothing to do with the mass or Vatican II. Pope Benedict said this very clearly.
“Their excommunication has nothing to do with Vatican II, as I have already said, but had been pronounced on account of an offense against the primacy.”*
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Lormar
Guest
Since Brother Jay answered the question, perhaps it is time for the thread to be locked before it turns into another heated discussion (to put it nicely).
Thanks for pointing that out.
I read: I was wondering why the SSPX split from the church. Did Vatican II make the Church “too soft”? as being two different questions of which I responded to the latter. I didn’t realize that the latter was part of the first. 
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Gabriel_Serafin
Guest
They split because they think they know better than the pope and the teachings of the Church; namely, they reject a number of the Vatican II Documents.
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Thomas_Casey
Guest
MODERATOR NOTE
You may disagree with the SSPX, but we ask that you speak about it with respect and kindness. This is still a very Catholic forum.
You may disagree with the SSPX, but we ask that you speak about it with respect and kindness. This is still a very Catholic forum.
Please forgive me if I wasn’t charitable in my post.
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JReducation
Guest
I think we all need a dose of charity. One of the positives of instant communication such as forums is that people can share ideas.
However, this also comes at a great price to the soul. When we communicate in print, without seeing the face of the person whom our words have impacted, it’s very hard to realize how much pain we may have caused another person and for what?
At the end of the day, we’re not going to solve any of these issues on an Internet forum. These issues must be resolved by those to whom it belongs to do so. In the meantime, we scar the face of Christ with our brutality toward each other in the name of “Truth” and “Sacred Tradition”. When did brutality, rudeness, impatience, and the absence of empathy become part of the sacred?
The problem is that what we see before us is a screen, not a person. It’s easy to vent our frustration through our fingers. We need to keep in mind that regardless of where we stand on a given issue we have a command to remain in His love. This begins with respect.
I realize that charity is not a good feeling. It’s a choice for the good of the neighbor. The good of the neighbor begins with our desire to help rather than to win are argument or prove a point.
So far, on these boards, there is more about winning than about helping.
However, this also comes at a great price to the soul. When we communicate in print, without seeing the face of the person whom our words have impacted, it’s very hard to realize how much pain we may have caused another person and for what?
At the end of the day, we’re not going to solve any of these issues on an Internet forum. These issues must be resolved by those to whom it belongs to do so. In the meantime, we scar the face of Christ with our brutality toward each other in the name of “Truth” and “Sacred Tradition”. When did brutality, rudeness, impatience, and the absence of empathy become part of the sacred?
The problem is that what we see before us is a screen, not a person. It’s easy to vent our frustration through our fingers. We need to keep in mind that regardless of where we stand on a given issue we have a command to remain in His love. This begins with respect.
I realize that charity is not a good feeling. It’s a choice for the good of the neighbor. The good of the neighbor begins with our desire to help rather than to win are argument or prove a point.
So far, on these boards, there is more about winning than about helping.
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quies
Guest
Brilliant!
IMO that entire post from Brother JR should be read, posted, stickied, and splash-screened on every internet forum on the WWW.
Regards.
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