Why did SSPX split?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Capuchinfan1337
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
For purposes of the debate, how do you define ‘obedience?’
I am not debating anyone. You may be, but I am not. There is no debate. I listen to the Holy Father. Last time I looked, the Vicar of Christ was seated in the Chair of Peter and not Bishop Fellay. Or Bishop Williamson.
 
We should also consider the Nature of Law.
Apologies in advance for those who know all this backwards! I am sure that all agree that, for a clear debate, we need to clear the ground.

According to St Thomas Aquinas, a Law is
•A precept of Right Reason
•For the Common Good
•Promulgated by the legitimate Authority.

Thus an attempt at enforcing a law that is either impossible, or unreasonable, or not directed to the Common Good, or not validly promulgated, is not a law at all but an*** abuse of authority*** which we are under a moral obligation to resist, otherwise we are participating in the sin by compliance with the offence against justice.

“The Law” subsists in several categories, the later ones “inside” the earlier.
•First is Divine Law which flows from the Nature of God Himself and the Nature of Reality…
Examples are: “Do good and avoid evil”. “Love the Lord thy God with thy whole Heart, mind and soul”.

•Within this is Natural Law which flows from the nature and structure of Creation, and within this the nature and structure of Man, body and soul.
Examples are: “Thou shalt not commit murder” (the correct translation of the 5th Commandment); the absolute prohibition of abortion, homosexual acts, artificial contraception.

•Within this again is Ecclesiastical Law, which derives from Christ’s establishment of His Church.
Examples are: The Commandments of the Church (see the Catechism).

•Ecclesiastical Law contains general principles and

Particular or •Positive Laws which derive from the lawful authority, derived from Christ, of appointed lawmakers within the Church. In general, these are collected and set out in the Code of Canon Law.
Examples are: * the Sunday obligation, the Friday abstinence, the rule of celibacy for priests.*

Civil Law is that part of Positive Law that* “Renders unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s”.* A Civil Law that contradicts or nullifies Ecclesiastical or Natural or Divine Law is ipso facto invalid.

In the very nature of things, a Law cannot contradict one on a higher level of this hierarchy. An attempt to promulgate a Positive Law that contradicted the Natural or the Divine Law would be* ipso facto* invalid. Thus no conceivable Positive Law could legalise direct abortion.
Hence, Roe vs Wade: is invalid as a law, even though it was promulgated in correct form by the US legislature, because it contradicts the higher Divine and Natural Laws. Hence one is forbidden to comply with it.

Holy Mother Church helps us not least by providing Positive Laws to guide our daily conduct, and then enforcing them.

But the Church’s Canon Law, sensu lato, is more than the collection of positive laws. In every age, new situations arise for which there may not be a particular positive law. In this case we must go behind the positive laws to the higher categories. That is what S. Athanasius did when he ignored the de facto imposition of the Arian Heresy, ignored the excommunications inflicted on him, and continued to ordain priests.
 
I am not debating anyone. You may be, but I am not. There is no debate. I listen to the Holy Father. Last time I looked, the Vicar of Christ was seated in the Chair of Peter and not Bishop Fellay. Or Bishop Williamson.
I thought the purpose of a Catholic forum was to debate. I have never heard either Bp Fellay or Bp Williamson claim to sit on the chair of Peter. I have certainly read a stout defence by Bp Fellay of the Papacy and Pope Benedict in particular, against the very aggressive comments of the German bishops against him, when His Holiness promulgated Summórum pontíficum. I have also read defence of the Primacy of Peter by Mgr Lefebvre against those who would downgrade the Chair of Peter in the name of ‘Conciliarism’.
 
Let me be more specific.

I am not debating you.

And I never said that either SSPX bishop claimed to sit in the Chair of Peter. To clarify what I meant, if I have to choose who to listen to and who to give my loyalty and obedience to, it won’t be an SSPX bishop over the Vicar of Christ.
 
It would have to come from humility since disobedience stems from pride. Think Lucifer.
Just as a general principle, it is not always a sin of disobedience to refuse compliance with the directive of a legitimate authority, neither is it a denial that the legitimate authority exists. Consider the fully-documented case of
**Bp Grosseteste & Innocent IV **
Robert Grosseteste, the English Bishop of Lincoln (1235-1253), was an erudite, pious and zealous man who sought to reform his clergy. He turned his attention in particular toward those who had received high appointments through special privileges and did not fulfill their obligations.
Pope Innocent IV, however, did not hesitate to name one of his nephews to be a Canon in the Chapter of the Cathedral of Lincoln, ordering the Bishop to install his nephew without delay.
Bp Grosseteste tried by every means and manoeuver to avoid complying. But each time he was out-manoeuvered. After a considerable amount of such work, Bp Grosseteste had no remaining options within the ‘normal’ framawork of the law. It is then that he sent this reply:
**
“Precisely because of the obedience that binds me and for the love of my union with the Holy See in the Body of Christ, as an obedient son, I disobey, I contradict, I rebel. I resist your command. You cannot take action against me, for my every word and act is not rebellion but the filial honor due by God’s Commandment regarding father and mother.
"As I have said, the Apostolic See in its holiness cannot destroy, it can only build. This is what the plentitude of power means; it can do all things toward edification. But these privileges **
[your request for your nephew]** do not build up, they destroy. Therefore, they cannot be the works of the blessed Apostolic See.”**
Innocent IV was absolutely beside himself when he received this answer, and wished to punish Bishop Grosseteste, but his advisors dissuaded him on the grounds that it would be a scandal for all Christendom.
The deposit of the Faith is transmitted, and the acts of the Church Magisterium - either the supreme or the ordinary Magisterium - are inerrant to the degree that they conform to Catholic Tradition. The cases here reported demonstrate that a Pope is not impeccable and cannot pretend to be the owner of the Catholic Religion. He is an administrator (Tit 1: 7-9) who should remain within the limits of the norms for the exercise of his mandate. St. Paul lists these norms:
• “To keep the deposit of the Faith” (1 Tim 6:20);
• “Before all else, to transmit what he had received” (1 Cor 15:3);
• “To edify and not destroy” (2 Cor 10:8);
• “To keep the Traditions” (2 Tes 2:14);
• “To withdraw from any brother who walks disorderly, not following the received tradition” (2 Thes 3:6);
• “To show himself faithful as the dispenser of the Faith” (1 Cor 4:1-2).
Bishops and Popes, as successors of the Apostles and of the Prince of the Apostles, have a mission determined by the divine constitution of the Church. She must lead men to God, so that they may unite themselves with the Creator without impediments. The Church can never lose sight of this strictly religious and supernatural goal. The way the Church accomplishes this supernatural goal is indicated by Revelation itself. Hence, the obligation to follow Tradition, according to the precept of St. Paul given to the Galatians: “Even if we or an Angel from Heaven were to preach a Gospel to you different from what we have preached to you, let him be anathema” (1:8).
Ref: partly from traditioninaction.org
website.

What advice should have been given to Bp Grosseteste before he sent that letter to the Pope?

 
Let me be more specific.

I am not debating you.
Nor I you. Let us debate the issues according to the forum rules, which make CAF perhaps unique, in that the case of the SSPX can be discussed without any personal insults or disrespect, either to forum members or to the hierarchy. It is rare to find a discussion forum that does not degenerate into a club of like-minded people. I am not asking anyone to join the SSPX congregations, but I am trying to report what I know of the account the SSPX make of themselves. It is not, as some suppose, one of disrespect to the Holy Father or the Papacy in general - although individuals may transgress the norms at particular times.
And I never said that either SSPX bishop claimed to sit in the Chair of Peter.
With respect, it did certainly sound like it. I am glad you do not.
To clarify what I meant, if I have to choose who to listen to and who to give my loyalty and obedience to, it won’t be an SSPX bishop over the Vicar of Christ.
I personally am always interested in particular instances, which may be considered in a rational manner. If I may be forgiven for quoting Our Lord, surely we all (even the SSPX bishops) have the right to say, “If there was harm in what I said, show us the harm in it; but if not, why do you strike me?”
 
SSPX will never be reunited with the Catholic Church until they accept the Vatican II documents which they have explicitly said they reject. The Church has the door wide open for them, all SSPX needs to do is to submit to the authority of the Church and humbly admit that they are wrong…
 
SSPX will never be reunited with the Catholic Church until they accept the Vatican II documents which they have explicitly said they reject. The Church has the door wide open for them, all SSPX needs to do is to submit to the authority of the Church and humbly admit that they are wrong…
The Vatican II Document on Religious Liberty makes interesting reading when placed alongside the previous Magisterial documents on the same topic. It is not an infallible document, as affirmed in the ‘Nota Praevia’ which Pope Paul VI ordered attached to the beginning of the document* Lumen Gentium* (and which was missing from the 1975 edition of the Documents of Vatican II, Ed. Fr Flannery O.P., which I read so many years ago.) I venture to suggest that it was the publisher who was disobedient to the Pope.
"Taking conciliar custom into consideration and also the pastoral purpose of the present Council, the sacred Council defines as binding on the Church only those things in matters of faith and morals which it shall openly declare to be binding. {nume: which is done nowhere} …
 
Breaking News…

From VIS, the Vatican Information Service
visnews-en.blogspot.ie/2013/02/popes-final-activities-possibility-of.html
Regarding the issue of the Society of St. Pius X, [Fr. Federico Lombardi, director of the Holy See Press Office] reaffirmed that the date of 22 February to decide the issue is pure hypothesis and that Benedict XVI has decided to entrust the matter to the next Pope, therefore, a definition of relations with that society should not be expected by the end of this pontificate.
 
The Vatican II Document on Religious Liberty makes interesting reading when placed alongside the previous Magisterial documents on the same topic. It is not an infallible document
I am convinced that most people who “do not accept” Vatican II’s document of Religious Freedom (Dignitatis Humanis, have never taken the time to study it. Furthermore, two popes since Paul VI have reaffirmed its teaching.

It seems like those who disregard this teaching of the Church are not thinking out why they are rejecting it. In other words, what do they propose the Church do? Force people to convert to Christ? Jesus Himself rebuked James and John when they called upon the Lord to rain fire upon those who opposed them.

Please read what the Vatican II document states about religious liberty and explain why it is that some say it is unnacceptable:
*
This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that **all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, **whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits.

The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself. This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.

It is in accordance with their dignity as persons-that is, beings endowed with reason and free will and therefore privileged to bear personal responsibility-that all men should be at once impelled by nature and also bound by a moral obligation to seek the truth, especially religious truth. They are also bound to adhere to the truth, once it is known, and to order their whole lives in accord with the demands of truth. *

So the question stands, should the Church force people to convert to Christ? If not, how could this document possibly be in error?
 
Athanasius did not take on the Holy See. The SSPX did.

The split has nothing to do with the mass or Vatican II. Pope Benedict said this very clearly.

"Their excommunication has nothing to do with Vatican II, as I have already said, but had been pronounced on account of an offense against the primacy."

Light of the Word, pages 120-121

Why do people insist on saying things about the SSPX separation that are contrary to what the Pope says? 🤷

If we’re going to be faithful to the Holy Father, then let’s be faithful and call things as he calls them. No one knows better how this all started than he. He was the man who dealt with the issue under Pope John Paul II.

Until Archbishop Lefebvre broke with the primacy they were not excommunicated. When a bishop ordains another bishop without a papal mandate, he is violating the primacy of Peter. Those who accept to be ordained bishops are equally guilty. The penalty is excommunication.

When a man accepts ordination as a deacon from an excommunicated bishop, he is automatically suspended. When he goes up for priestly ordination, he is already a suspended cleric.

Therefore, all of his acts are illegal and his absolutions are invalid, except in immediate danger of death where there is no time to find a priest with faculties.

The excommunications were lifted, but the suspensions have remained in place.
Archbishop Lefebvre said the following. Sadly, that pretty much says it all:

“I prefer to be in the truth without the Pope than to walk a false path with him…”

This article in the New York Times does a good job at encapsulating…

nytimes.com/1991/03/26/obituaries/archbishop-lefebvre-85-dies-traditionalist-defied-the-vatican.html

Came close to reconciliation, but no cigar: 😦

catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=17108
 
Archbishop Lefebvre said the following. That pretty much says it all:

“I prefer to be in the truth without the Pope than to walk a false path with him…”
St. Jerome would respond…

*“I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness, that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built.”—(Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396]). *
 
St. Jerome would respond…

*“I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness, that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built.”—(Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396]). *
👍 The SSPX, sadly, has done some serious damage in terms of division alone. I hope and pray for reconciliation!
 
I am convinced that most people who “do not accept” Vatican II’s document of Religious Freedom (Dignitatis Humanis, have never taken the time to study it.
Not wanting to labour the point, but I personally have not only studied it, but I know its correct name, which is Dignitatis Humanae - see vatican.va/…/vat-ii_dec…umanae_en.html -
Furthermore, two popes since Paul VI have reaffirmed its teaching.
It seems like those who disregard this teaching of the Church are not thinking out why they are rejecting it. In other words, what do they propose the Church do? Force people to convert to Christ? Jesus Himself rebuked James and John when they called upon the Lord to rain fire upon those who opposed them.
Please read what the Vatican II document states about religious liberty and explain why it is that some say it is unnacceptable:
*
This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that **all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, ***whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits.
The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself. This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.
It is in accordance with their dignity as persons-that is, beings endowed with reason and free will and therefore privileged to bear personal responsibility-that all men should be at once impelled by nature and also bound by a moral obligation to seek the truth, especially religious truth. They are also bound to adhere to the truth, once it is known, and to order their whole lives in accord with the demands of truth.
So the question stands, should the Church force people to convert to Christ? If not, how could this document possibly be in error?
The traditional teaching is that no individual may be coerced in the private forum, but that no individual or group has the right to practise a religion in the public forum contrary to that established by Christ - i.e. the Catholic Church. Ideally, society should be structured with its laws consistent with God’s own Laws. The actual form of government - republic or kingdom - is neutral. In the Middle Ages a genuine effort was made to structure society along these lines.
Traditional teaching is, furthermore, that although this is the ideal, if there are in existence sizeable groups that follow and practise a false religion, it may be the lesser of two evils, for the public good, to tolerate the false religion in the public forum, pending their conversion for the good of their souls. The preliminary schema to Vatican II was headed ‘On Religious Toleration’. The Church was very emphatic that there can exist no right to practise a false religion in the public Forum. Yet this was explicitly stated in the Vatican II document that was actually promulgated, with not a single word to explain why there had been this 180 degree change, nor so much as a single quotation of previous Magisterial documents. If we read the Proceedings of all other Ecumenical Councils (as far as we have the records) up to & including Vatican II, we will find that, when a topic was broached, every single relevant magisterial document back to the New Testament was quoted. Why was this not done at Vatican II? Was it because it would have exposed this rejection of previous teaching?

The concept of ‘Religious Liberty’, and indeed the whole concept of ‘Rights’ dangling in the air without any Authority to confer those ‘Rights’, arose in the anti-religioous movement of the 18th century known (by its supporters) as ‘The Enlightenment’, and made very explicit at the French Revolution. The popes had repeatedly warned that the siren song of ‘Religious LIberty’ would end up as allowing no religion at all. Is it not the case that crucifixes, Christmas cribs, and statues have been banned from schools precisely in the name of Religious Liberty?

In Dignitatis Humanae we read
They are also bound to adhere to the truth, once it is known,
without, however, saying what is the civil authority to do if a group obstinately refuse to do so. The document also fails to explain what would happen if one group wanted to continue the Aztec religion of cutting out the living hearts of its sacrificial victims and smearing them on the walls, floor and ceiling of the temple, as was done in Mexico. Against the public good? But they honestly believed that this was what kept the sun shining. Dignitatis Humanae is not an infallible document, and it is open to legitimate criticism. The good intentions of the framers are not in doubt.
That is why certain people, and by no means just the SSPX, have been demanding for 40 years that this issue be properly discussed. To date (and correct me if I am wrong) no other Religious Order has succeeded in opening discussions with the Holy See on this, and a few other, issues with Vatican II.
 
One of the Bishops consecreated by Lefebvre (Richard Williamson, an Englishman) turned out to be a bit of a nutter, and has since been expelled from the SSPX.
I don’t think your appraisal of +Williamson is as straightforward as you suggest.

+Williamson is a wonderful priest in many ways. He is an incredibly gifted preacher - check out an early sermon from him here youtube.com/watch?v=oby99KZaLNc He is also incredibly faithful to the teachings of the Church.

On most points of faith he is right on the money. It is just a shame that when he goes “off reservation” he goes so far. The saying “there is a fine line between genius and madness” I think it particularly appropriate in this case.
 
They can validly administer the Eucharist. They have no faculties to hear confessions and preform weddings from the Ordinary and, therefore, their confessions and weddings are invalid. Confessions would be valid if it was a state of emergency.
Thank you for this clarification Zekariya.
 
I don’t think your appraisal of +Williamson is as straightforward as you suggest.

+**Williamson is a wonderful priest in many ways. He is an incredibly gifted preacher **- check out an early sermon from him here youtube.com/watch?v=oby99KZaLNc He is also incredibly faithful to the teachings of the Church.

On most points of faith he is right on the money. It is just a shame that when he goes “off reservation” he goes so far. The saying “there is a fine line between genius and madness” I think it particularly appropriate in this case.
I agree with what you say. I do think Williamson is a gifted preacher / speaker and he comes across as a very intelligent man. In some sense I admire him - he is confident to the point of boldness and also very orthodox, as you say.

However, with my “nutter” gag, I was just meaning I find it amazing / horrifying that someone of such intellect could end up doing / saying some of the stuff he does!

His activities have caused criticism for the Church, (over his questioning details of the Holocaust - although, to be fair, we allegedly enjoy freedom of speech in the west), and if you google him you find him (and so, by association, the SSPX) mentioned on anti-fascist websites!

This kind of publicity is obviously not necessary, nor desired or welcomed by anyone - not to mention inaccurate, with regard to Catholicism generally - and so I can see why the SSPX moved to eventually expell him.

There are rumours that, now he is a loose-cannon, that he intends to consecreate Bishops of his own - as though he sees himself as some kind of Lefebvre Mk 2.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top