So your concept of justice is that all Jews, for the rest of history, are to be persecuted for the actions of a few Jews 2000 years ago? Truly appalling! No wonder the Jews say with respect to the Holocaust, “Never forget.” It could indeed occur again and this kind of “enlightened” reasoning could figure prominently.
Indeed. The history speaks for itself.
Am I guilty of Adam’s sin? (the correct answer here is “yes”) The sins of the fathers do pass to the sons.
Just to be clear, I am not a holocaust-denier. I am, in fact, a big supporter of Israel, and it is my theological belief that the Jews are STILL the chosen people of God and we Gentiles are being grafted in “for a time.”
Sure. Judas, too.
The Church writes things down. The Biblical passages are another matter. At the time of their writing the early Church was experiencing persecution at the hands of the Jewish leaders (though not all of them by any means, as many of the diaspora - Jews living outside of the Holy Land - embraced the apostolic teachings when they came to their areas).I don’t think the teaching of Trent was a novelty at the time either. I think that, like the Vatican II reiteration, it was restating existing teaching to a generation that might have needed to hear the teachings again in their time.
I understood you, Randy. and I agree with your sentiments about the Jews. I feel like they are the “big brothers” of us Catholics. I pray for them and us every day. (Along with the rest of the world…)
That link makes it seem so that the Church is anti semitic, but is not. More knowledge of history is required. that link can be refuted.
1,I dont deny the holocaust.
But apparently the Good Friday liturgy, pre-second Vatican council still referred to Jews as ‘perfidious’.I went to Catholic School in the 1950’s beginning in 1956.
I never heard that “the Jews” killed Jesus. I heard that He died for our sins … and that it was our sins that he took upon Himself on the cross.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__gB2ZU3by...s400/Screen+shot+2010-01-26+at+9.53.56+PM.png
*The illustration above is from an old Baltimore Catechism of the era I went to grade school *
Now when you hear the Gospels, “the Jews” refers to those hostile Jewish leaders who DID want to kill Jesus (and plotted to, and took him to trials, and led the crowds to cry “Crucify Him!”). That’s just history, as is the fact that they had to involve Pilate the Roman Governor and Herod (a non-Jewish King appointed to the area) and Judas, an apostle in their plotting. Blaming all Jews, Italians, or all of the apostles of killing Jesus by association would be (or IS - as the case may be) preposterous.
As has been mentioned - ALL the apostles were Jewish, and all but Judas began their post-crucifixion ministry preaching in the Temple - as well as elsewhere (as Jesus had).
As Jesus taught “Love your enemies …” – justifying a thousands of years long grudge, or a shorter one, would not be of God. Satan would have encouraged it though, I think.
The principle that WE killed Jesus through our sins is one I learned early. He did not HAVE to do it (is the intellectual argument) - but the fact that HE DID - makes that bit of escapism moot.
Like others I’d like to see the actual documents whereby this was ever taught.
catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0714.html
I don’t think the teaching of Trent was a novelty at the time either. I think that, like the Vatican II reiteration, it was restating existing teaching to a generation that might have needed to hear the teachings again in their time.
Haha!Short Time Warp…back to 1957.
Sister Margaret Mary is teaching 7th grade Religion:
"Sister Sister…do we hate the Jews because they killed Jesus??
“No Zoltan,we do not hate Jews and they didn’t kill Christ.”
“But Sister, in the bible a bunch of Jews were yelling ‘crucify Him…crucify Him’ and one guy says ‘let his blood be on us and our children…??’”
“Zoltan, those people may have been Jews and the man who called out was probably a Jew, but he was really speaking for ALL of US. Christ died to save ALL mankind. Technically…we ALL killed Jesus.”
“But Sister…”
“Look at it this way Zoltan. At that time the Romans ruled all of Judea. Rome had very strict laws. Only the Roman governor of a Provence had the power to execute people. The Jews couldn’t execute anyone…only the Romans could do that. So…why not blame Pontius Pilate? or the Roman soldiers? or all Italian people today?”
“Yes, Dino, you have your hand up…”
“Wise up Zoltan…Sister’s right. We ALL killed Jesus see…not just the Jews or the Italians. You gotta problem with dat…see my uncle Guido, you know who he is, right?”
End of discussion…
I loved it!Short Time Warp…back to 1957.
Sister Margaret Mary is teaching 7th grade Religion:
"Sister Sister…do we hate the Jews because they killed Jesus??
“No Zoltan,we do not hate Jews and they didn’t kill Christ.”
“But Sister, in the bible a bunch of Jews were yelling ‘crucify Him…crucify Him’ and one guy says ‘let his blood be on us and our children…??’”
“Zoltan, those people may have been Jews and the man who called out was probably a Jew, but he was really speaking for ALL of US. Christ died to save ALL mankind. Technically…we ALL killed Jesus.”
“But Sister…”
“Look at it this way Zoltan. At that time the Romans ruled all of Judea. Rome had very strict laws. Only the Roman governor of a Provence had the power to execute people. The Jews couldn’t execute anyone…only the Romans could do that. So…why not blame Pontius Pilate? or the Roman soldiers? or all Italian people today?”
“Yes, Dino, you have your hand up…”
“Wise up Zoltan…Sister’s right. We ALL killed Jesus see…not just the Jews or the Italians. You gotta problem with dat…see my uncle Guido, you know who he is, right?”
End of discussion…
Glad you enjoyed Sister’s class.
Yes, I was wrong to put it like that…what I was thinking of was their stoning for blasphemy. If they technically had no jurisdiction for capital cases, it didn’t stop them stoning Stephen. Didn’t they accuse Jesus of blasphemy? The temple authorities were responsible for keeping law and order - which was threatened by Jesus’ activities - so they could hand him over to Rome for sedition. It was in their interest for Caiaphas and co to keep in with the Romans in order to keep their powerful and wealthy positions.
Why did the Church encourage the nuclear attack on Japan, or any number of other things it didn’t actually encourage?
Wow! I didn’t know the Church encouraged the nuclear attack on Japan.
Read my post again.
No way did the church encourage something so evil!
