Why did the Protestant Reformation happen?

[steido01]

Let us not forget that Luther said he could murder and still be saved. In other words, according to us, violating God’s law would result in a loss of faith, grace, thus salvation.

Are you insinuating that murderers cannot repent of their sin and be saved? It’d be rather unfortunate to be Paul of Tarsus, then.

 

[Contarini]

Are you insinuating that murderers cannot repent of their sin and be saved? It’d be rather unfortunate to be Paul of Tarsus, then.

Luther believed that no sin, in itself, would cause a person to be damned as long as they believed in Christ. To repent of specific acts was not necessary in order to be forgiven. But this has to be qualified. Luther also believed that a believer would not want to commit sin–he believed that saving faith always came along with love and a desire to do good and avoid sin. In his later years, as he became more realistic about the ways his teaching could be abused, he added that a person who did not resist the works of the flesh would eventually cease to believe. And he believed that repentance of sin was a vital part of saving faith. To be a believer was, in the words of his early teaching in the 95 Theses, to live a life of continual repentance.

Edwin

 

[Abu]

Per Crucem 328
Just acknowledging historical facts
the influence of the dispute between the conciliarists and the supporters of the Papacy as supreme authority in the church.

‘A preponderance of “brains” held that a Church council could override the pope. Both of these theories, Arianism and Conciliarism, were badges of academic respectability at one time, and both are heresies. Neither is the prestige of individuals any guarantee of orthodoxy. Tertullian (c. 150–230), the author of thirty-three books, was second to none during his lifetime as a Christian scholar-theologian. Yet he wound up apostatizing because he could not abide Catholic absolution of persons guilty of grave sexual sin.

‘No ecumenical council has taught that it, itself, is the supreme authority of the Church. No ecumenical council has taught that its decrees become authoritative only if and when accepted by all the faithful.’
**Fr Ray Ryland
This Rock Volume 8, Number 6, June 1997 **
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9706eaw.asp

EvangelCatholic #39
The ramifications of this Catholic and Lutheran consensus are historical and point to eventual reunification of the Church.

A return to Catholic faith requires assent to all dogma and doctrine.

 

[steido01]

Luther believed that no sin, in itself, would cause a person to be damned as long as they believed in Christ. To repent of specific acts was not necessary in order to be forgiven. But this has to be qualified. Luther also believed that a believer would not want to commit sin–he believed that saving faith always came along with love and a desire to do good and avoid sin. In his later years, as he became more realistic about the ways his teaching could be abused, he added that a person who did not resist the works of the flesh would eventually cease to believe. And he believed that repentance of sin was a vital part of saving faith. To be a believer was, in the words of his early teaching in the 95 Theses, to live a life of continual repentance.

Edwin

Killjoy. I had just started to build to the point. In apologetic discussions, those necessarily qualified statements are too often overlooked.

 

[JonNC]

=Atisor207;12149126]I think that you got it backwards. I view the latest ecumenical documents signed as protestants reflecting on how sola fide is not a one time thing but rather a living constant faith…

I don’t think Lutherans have ever denied this, but…

Here is something that might clear up your confusion as to Luther being correct

"First, Pope Benedict states there are several reasons that we cannot merit heaven. Most obviously, our Redemption by the blood of Christ is a pure gift. Moreover, and in some sense more astoundingly, heaven is a communion with God who is love (1 Jn 4:8), and a relationship of love is initiated by a free gift. If such a relationship is with the infinite, all holy God, how much more is this initiative free! So, too, any merit depends on God’s promise, though God’s promise does not exclude all merit. Finally, the reward of the just exceeds actual merit, as divine mercy tempers divine justice (Wis 11:23, Rom 8:18). Pope Benedict has these reasons and others in mind in his statement. He does not intend to deny Trent’s teaching. He does, however, put this teaching in context—in the context of personal love. We are dealing, after all, with a love story, with a Father who sent his only Son out of love for the godless.

OK.

Second, there is a reason that Pope Benedict teaches that faith alone suffices and that it always comes with charity. He means, by “true faith,” a living faith. Now, living faith by dogmatic definition includes charity, for divine faith without hope and charity does not avail (1 Cor 13:2, 1 Jn 3:14). Charity is not first a “work.” It is first of all a divine gift of love that comes down from the Father (Jas 1:17) through the Holy Spirit (Rom 5:5). It is by this gift of divine love that faith can realize itself in good works (Gal 5:6). Pope Benedict teaches this very thing: Charity is the soul or form of faith (Audience, Nov. 19).

Yes, and his comments about Luther’s “faith alone being true if…” I’m sure came with full knowledge of Luther’s commentary on Galatians 5:6, which effectively, says the same thing.

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

Third, good works testify to justification, for they are signs of a justification already received. They are signs of gratitude for the gift already given, promised in earnest. Luther said the same thing, as did St. Thomas Aquinas and the Catholic saints.

Of course, more must be said—and the pope says more: “Salvation received in Christ needs to be preserved and witnessed to” (Nov. 26). This is what Trent teaches (Trent, VI, canon 24). Moreover, the pope indicates a progressive growth in communion with Christ, a progressive conformity to his life (Nov. 19). Since communion with Christ is established through faith and constitutes the essence of our “being justified,” the pope is teaching here another truth of Catholic faith—that, once justified, the Christian can surrender to God and so be increasingly sanctified unto eternal life (Rom 6:15-23). In purgatory, those who die with imperfect charity are thoroughly sanctified (see Spe Salvi, 45ff).

OK

Finally, we must heed something not yet mentioned—the pope’s focus on the final judgment: “This idea of the Last Judgment must illumine us in our daily lives” (Nov. 26). What is the basis upon which we will be judged? The “sole criterion is love” (Nov. 19; see also, Nov. 26). Hence, “At the end of this Gospel [Mt 25], we can say: love alone, charity alone” (Nov. 19). Here, the pope is showing his deeply Augustinian character (see Augustine, De Trinitate, XV:18:32).

Love of God and neighbor is a matter of life and death (Dt 30; John Paul II, Veritatis Splendor, 12), for even though a person has divine faith as a free commitment to Christ, if he has not charity—and the deeds of charity where need requires and capacity exists—he cannot be saved (Mt 7:22ff; Jn 15:2; 1 Cor 6:9-11; Gal 5:19-21; Jas 2:17; Veritatis Splendor, 68)."

This might require greater fleshing out.

Let us not forget that Luther said he could murder and still be saved. In other words, according to us, violating God’s law would result in a loss of faith, grace, thus salvation.

Perhaps you can explain what you mean here. Luther’s comment in his letter to Melanchthon would, of course, assume repentance, would assume a desire to not sin, but mostly refers in a comparative way any sin we commit to that of the love Christ has for us.

Jon

 

[Atisor207]

Are you insinuating that murderers cannot repent of their sin and be saved? It’d be rather unfortunate to be Paul of Tarsus, then.

This is exactly what Luther said… among other things…

Luther’s letters, written to Melancthon in 1521,
“Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ more strongly, who triumphed over sin, death, and the world; as long as we live here, we must sin.”’

 

[Atisor207]

Atisor207

Appreciate your account of the document. Are you quoting directly from the JDDJ? The position of both Catholics and Lutherans is that justification before God was central to the Reformation. Here are a few quotes:

The ramifications of this Catholic and Lutheran consensus are historical and point to eventual reunification of the Church.

It hasn’t changed at all. I just read it and it is merely worded nicely. But as stated in the same document…

When Lutherans emphasize that the righteousness of Christ is our righteousness, their intention is above all to insist that the sinner is granted righteousness before God in Christ through the declaration of forgiveness and that only in union with Christ is one’s life renewed. When they stress that God’s grace is forgiving love (“the favor of God”[12]), they do not thereby deny the renewal of the Christian’s life.** They intend rather to express that justification remains free from human cooperation and is not dependent on the life-renewing effects of grace in human beings.**

That has always been the core difference and it remains the same difference.
I also don’t see any doctrinal changes for us.
Renewing effects of grace for justification is the key difference between the two. As stated above it remains free of renewal for Lutherans but not for Catholics.

The document states the same thing we each believe in nice language.

 

[steido01]

This is exactly what Luther said… among other things…

Luther’s letters, written to Melancthon in 1521,
“Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ more strongly, who triumphed over sin, death, and the world; as long as we live here, we must sin.”’

Nice proof-texting there. What Luther meant in that personal letter to his friend was explained in JonNC’s previous post.

 

[Atisor207]

Nice proof-texting there. What Luther meant in that personal letter to his friend was explained in JonNC’s previous post.

I don’t see repentance as YOU insinuated.

 

[Atisor207]

I don’t think Lutherans have ever denied this, but…

OK.

Yes, and his comments about Luther’s “faith alone being true if…” I’m sure came with full knowledge of Luther’s commentary on Galatians 5:6, which effectively, says the same thing.

OK

This might require greater fleshing out.

Perhaps you can explain what you mean here. Luther’s comment in his letter to Melanchthon would, of course, assume repentance, would assume a desire to not sin, but mostly refers in a comparative way any sin we commit to that of the love Christ has for us.

Jon

Here is the key component of the declaration and it has not change…

23.When Lutherans emphasize that the righteousness of Christ is our righteousness, their intention is above all to insist that the sinner is granted righteousness before God in Christ through the declaration of forgiveness and that only in union with Christ is one’s life renewed. When they stress that God’s grace is forgiving love (“the favor of God”[12]), they do not thereby deny the renewal of the Christian’s life. They intend rather to express that justification remains free from human cooperation and is not dependent on the life-renewing effects of grace in human beings.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Unless of course Lutherans have realized that the renewal of the effects of grace are dependent on human cooperation for justification.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I think that you got it backwards. I view the latest ecumenical documents signed as protestants reflecting on how sola fide is not a one time thing but rather a living constant faith…

Here is something that might clear up your confusion as to Luther being correct

"First, Pope Benedict states there are several reasons that we cannot merit heaven. Most obviously, our Redemption by the blood of Christ is a pure gift. Moreover, and in some sense more astoundingly, heaven is a communion with God who is love (1 Jn 4:8), and a relationship of love is initiated by a free gift. If such a relationship is with the infinite, all holy God, how much more is this initiative free! So, too, any merit depends on God’s promise, though God’s promise does not exclude all merit. Finally, the reward of the just exceeds actual merit, as divine mercy tempers divine justice (Wis 11:23, Rom 8:18). Pope Benedict has these reasons and others in mind in his statement. He does not intend to deny Trent’s teaching. He does, however, put this teaching in context—in the context of personal love. We are dealing, after all, with a love story, with a Father who sent his only Son out of love for the godless.

Second, there is a reason that Pope Benedict teaches that faith alone suffices and that it always comes with charity. He means, by “true faith,” a living faith. Now, living faith by dogmatic definition includes charity, for divine faith without hope and charity does not avail (1 Cor 13:2, 1 Jn 3:14). Charity is not first a “work.” It is first of all a divine gift of love that comes down from the Father (Jas 1:17) through the Holy Spirit (Rom 5:5). It is by this gift of divine love that faith can realize itself in good works (Gal 5:6). Pope Benedict teaches this very thing: Charity is the soul or form of faith (Audience, Nov. 19).

Calling to mind charity as a gift, an infused virtue (not first a work), supports the truth of James’ analogy: Works are to faith as the soul is to the body (Jas 2:26). James’ Epistle would devolve into moralism and contradict Paul (see Rom 10:1-4; Phil 3:8ff; Audience Nov. 26), if it meant that merely human works are added to a dead faith to resuscitate a dead corpse. Not at all! It is living faith that realizes itself through good works, that produces good works. But I might not have opportunity to perform a work, to “realize” this living faith. Am I not saved, if I die in such circumstances? No, I am saved! Therefore, having formed faith is sufficient for salvation. This is what Pope Benedict means. Further, as he also expressly states, living faith itself will surely die if it is not expressed in concrete works, if I am capable of action and the opportunity presents itself.

Third, good works testify to justification, for they are signs of a justification already received. They are signs of gratitude for the gift already given, promised in earnest. Luther said the same thing, as did St. Thomas Aquinas and the Catholic saints.

Of course, more must be said—and the pope says more: “Salvation received in Christ needs to be preserved and witnessed to” (Nov. 26). This is what Trent teaches (Trent, VI, canon 24). Moreover, the pope indicates a progressive growth in communion with Christ, a progressive conformity to his life (Nov. 19). Since communion with Christ is established through faith and constitutes the essence of our “being justified,” the pope is teaching here another truth of Catholic faith—that, once justified, the Christian can surrender to God and so be increasingly sanctified unto eternal life (Rom 6:15-23). In purgatory, those who die with imperfect charity are thoroughly sanctified (see Spe Salvi, 45ff).

Finally, we must heed something not yet mentioned—the pope’s focus on the final judgment: “This idea of the Last Judgment must illumine us in our daily lives” (Nov. 26). What is the basis upon which we will be judged? The “sole criterion is love” (Nov. 19; see also, Nov. 26). Hence, “At the end of this Gospel [Mt 25], we can say: love alone, charity alone” (Nov. 19). Here, the pope is showing his deeply Augustinian character (see Augustine, De Trinitate, XV:18:32).

Love of God and neighbor is a matter of life and death (Dt 30; John Paul II, Veritatis Splendor, 12), for even though a person has divine faith as a free commitment to Christ, if he has not charity—and the deeds of charity where need requires and capacity exists—he cannot be saved (Mt 7:22ff; Jn 15:2; 1 Cor 6:9-11; Gal 5:19-21; Jas 2:17; Veritatis Splendor, 68)."

Let us not forget that Luther said he could murder and still be saved. In other words, according to us, violating God’s law would result in a loss of faith, grace, thus salvation.

Can you link your source? I did not find this in the Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. Thanks

 

[Atisor207]

Can you link your source? I did not find this in the Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. Thanks

Sure it is Pope Benedict XVI encyclical Spe Salvi
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Sure it is Pope Benedict XVI encyclical Spe Salvi
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

That is not the JDDJ where Lutherans and Catholics declare consensus; it is important to clarify your information, in my opinion.

Encyclical Letter: Spe Salvi does not address justification as it applies to Lutherans or the Reformation.

 

[Atisor207]

That is not the JDDJ where Lutherans and Catholics declare consensus; it is important to clarify your information, in my opinion.

Encyclical Letter: Spe Salvi does not address justification as it applies to Lutherans or the Reformation.

But even the JDDJ says
23.When Lutherans emphasize that the righteousness of Christ is our righteousness, their intention is above all to insist that the sinner is granted righteousness before God in Christ through the declaration of forgiveness and that only in union with Christ is one’s life renewed. When they stress that God’s grace is forgiving love (“the favor of God”[12]), they do not thereby deny the renewal of the Christian’s life. They intend rather to express that justification remains free from human cooperation and is not dependent on the life-renewing effects of grace in human beings.

 

[rcwitness]

But even the JDDJ says
23.When Lutherans emphasize that the righteousness of Christ is our righteousness, their intention is above all to insist that the sinner is granted righteousness before God in Christ through the declaration of forgiveness and that only in union with Christ is one’s life renewed. When they stress that God’s grace is forgiving love (“the favor of God”[12]), they do not thereby deny the renewal of the Christian’s life. They intend rather to express that justification remains free from human cooperation and is not dependent on the life-renewing effects of grace in human beings.

There will never be Catholic acceptance of this. It is the hidden agenda behind Sola Fide which the Reformation fell victim to.

The Lord’s prayer itself contradicts this!..

“forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us.”

 

[Per_Crucem]

There will never be Catholic acceptance of this. It is the hidden agenda behind Sola Fide which the Reformation fell victim to.

The Lord’s prayer itself contradicts this!..

“forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us.”

The Council of Orange in 529 is not impressed

CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), and, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10).

 

[spina1953]

There will never be Catholic acceptance of this. It is the hidden agenda behind Sola Fide which the Reformation fell victim to.

The Lord’s prayer itself contradicts this!..

“forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us.”

Hi rewitness: I agree and more to the point the Lord’s Prayer is the best prayer and to love is to forgive. so then as it is said in the prayer you quoted " forgive us our sins as we forgive those who trespass against us." If one is not willing to forgive one’s trespassers how can expect God to forgive us our trespass’s ?

 

[Atisor207]

There will never be Catholic acceptance of this. It is the hidden agenda behind Sola Fide which the Reformation fell victim to.

The Lord’s prayer itself contradicts this!..

“forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us.”

Yes but lutherans don’t understand that we believe in what they believe but we also believe that faith without works is dead. Meaning that one can say the one is faithful but not actually being faithful.

 

[Atisor207]

The Council of Orange in 529 is not impressed

CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), and, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10).

There absolutely nothing new about it. Catholics also believe that we are saved by faith.

We don’t believe that faith does not produce works.

For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. James 2:26

 

[rcwitness]

The Council of Orange in 529 is not impressed

CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), and, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10).

This does not deny our necessary cooperation with God’s Will.

It stresses that faith is a gift, a grace so our cooperation is dependant on God’s free choice to associate Himself with man, not because we deserved it or were faithfull to Him otherwise. On the contrary, we were not faithfull and therefore any of our attempts to work righteousness were unclean in His sight.