Why did the Protestant Reformation happen?

[spina1953]

Yes but lutherans don’t understand that we believe in what they believe but we also believe that faith without works is dead. Meaning that one can say the one is faithful but not actually being faithful.

Hi Atisor: I don’t really understand how one can be faithful without actually being faithful? It seems to me to be an oxymoron to say the least.

 

[Atisor207]

The Council of Orange in 529 is not impressed

CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), and, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10).

You are not understanding. Catholics also believe in it. We just don’t believe that faith does not produce works.
We also don’t believe that without repentance we are being faithful to God.
If one sins then one is not being faithful and must repent again.

 

[Atisor207]

Hi Atisor: I don’t really understand how one can be faithful without actually being faithful? It seems to me to be an oxymoron to say the least.

No I didn’t say that.

Protestants (lutherans believe that)

By sinning one is not faithful.

 

[Per_Crucem]

This does not deny our necessary cooperation with God’s Will.

No, it doesn’t. But it does say that our cooperation with God’s will is a result of His grace and not the cause. Hence, why we hold that the sole and sufficient agent of man’s regeneration, conversion, justification and glorification, is the mercy of God in Christ. Man’s cooperation is the result of the aforementioned.

 

[Atisor207]

Hi rewitness: I agree and more to the point the Lord’s Prayer is the best prayer and to love is to forgive. so then as it is said in the prayer you quoted " forgive us our sins as we forgive those who trespass against us." If one is not willing to forgive one’s trespassers how can expect God to forgive us our trespass’s ?

Some ignore passages like:

And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”…
Mat 19:16-17

Or
1 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear* before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.f

Or the entire sermon on the Mount

etc etc…

Sola fide is not sola scriptura xD

 

[Per_Crucem]

You are not understanding. Catholics also believe in it. We just don’t believe that faith does not produce works.

Neither do we.

We also don’t believe that without repentance we are being faithful to God.
If one sins then one is not being faithful and must repent again.

We don’t believe that, either.

 

[Atisor207]

Neither do we.

We don’t believe that, either.

yes I am aware
we have many things in common.

 

[spina1953]

No I didn’t say that.

Protestants (lutherans believe that)

By sinning one is not faithful.

Hi Atisor" Maybe I misunderstood, but and I quote" your posted #61
“Meaning that one can say the one is faithful but not actually being faithful.” You did not really say it was Protestants or Lutheran’s who said this, so I thought it was you saying this. That being said, However the question remains, how does one be faithful without actually being faithful? It does seem to me to be a oxymoron.

 

[Atisor207]

No, it doesn’t. But it does say that our cooperation with God’s will is a result of His grace and not the cause. Hence, why we hold that the sole and sufficient agent of man’s regeneration, conversion, justification and glorification, is the mercy of God in Christ. Man’s cooperation is the result of the aforementioned.

But Catholics believe the same thing except that we don’t say that faith does not bring works.

We also say that the gift of grace is something we must maintain.

We also believe in obedience. We also believe in the mercy but we are not going to violate the Commandments because as Jesus Himself said we will be liable to judgement if we do.

 

[spina1953]

Some ignore passages like:

And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”…
Mat 19:16-17

Or
1 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear* before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.f

Or the entire sermon on the Mount

etc etc…

Sola fide is not sola scriptura xD

Hi Atisor: yes, many do ignore Scripture passages such as you quoted. I myself like the Beatitudes as it say much in the way one should live and act towards our fellow man.

 

[rcwitness]

No, it doesn’t. But it does say that our cooperation with God’s will is a result of His grace and not the cause. Hence, why we hold that the sole and sufficient agent of man’s regeneration, conversion, justification and glorification, is the mercy of God in Christ. Man’s cooperation is the result of the aforementioned.

No, read it.

They intend rather to express that justification remains free from human cooperation

This says we do not need to cooperate at all with God’s Will, in order to be Justified.

How can one have genuine faith and not cooperate with God?

 

[Atisor207]

Hi Atisor" Maybe I misunderstood, but and I quote" your posted #61
“Meaning that one can say the one is faithful but not actually being faithful.” You did not really say it was Protestants or Lutheran’s who said this, so I thought it was you saying this. That being said, However the question remains, how does one be faithful without actually being faithful? It does seem to me to be a oxymoron.

Oh I agree with you. I was certainly not saying that one can have faith without being faithful.

The same scriptures provide vast amounts of how we can be faithful to God

We can start with the Sermon on the Mount when Jesus spoke to us about not violating the most basic commandments.

We can also read many parables. The 5 women with the lamps is a good one.

Also, remember when a follower of Jesus asked Him how he could gain eternal life and Jesus replied “follow the commandments”

 

[spina1953]

No, read it.

They intend rather to express that justification remains free from human cooperation

This says we do not need to cooperate at all with God’s Will, in order to be Justified.

How can one have genuine faith and not cooperate with God?

Hi rewitness: I tend to agree with you. That being said God offers us His grace His love as a free gift and it is to us to either except it or not as per the free will God gave us. So faith then is a free gift, but it is up to us to use it, sort of use it or lose it . One can’t have it both ways, so one either has faith because one accepts it from God and uses it or one does not have it because one does not use it.

 

[Atisor207]

No, read it.

They intend rather to express that justification remains free from human cooperation

This says we do not need to cooperate at all with God’s Will, in order to be Justified.

How can one have genuine faith and not cooperate with God?

It is stating “They” meaning Lutherans. Not us, Catholics.

 

[Per_Crucem]

No, read it.

They intend rather to express that justification remains free from human cooperation

This says we do not need to cooperate at all with God’s Will, in order to be Justified.

How can one have genuine faith and not cooperate with God?

No, what we say is that it is not cooperation with God that is a cause of our justification. Rather, our cooperation with God is the fruit of our justification before God. It is not that we “do not need to.” It is that the doing is the fruit not the root.

 

[rcwitness]

It is stating “They” meaning Lutherans. Not us, Catholics.

Right, but I think many non-Cats have genuine faith, which cooperates with God’s Will. This Teaching, however, seperates us in our full Communion.

 

[rcwitness]

No, what we say is that it is not cooperation with God that is a cause of our justification. Rather, our cooperation with God is the fruit of our justification before God. It is not that we “do not need to.” It is that the doing is the fruit not the root.

Well by this logic, faith is a gift also, so God chooses whom to give the gift of salvation to and whom to restrict? No, all are offered redemption and faith, but those who cooperate with faith are actually faithfull.

 

[Atisor207]

It is that the doing is the fruit not the root.

Yes exactly and that is what Catholics believe.

I do however think that protestants, and I’m talking about the more established denominations. Believe as Luther says, that sinning does not affect faith.

 

[Atisor207]

Right, but I think many non-Cats have genuine faith, which cooperates with God’s Will. This Teaching, however, seperates us in our full Communion.

Yes exactly right.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Well by this logic, faith is a gift also

Of course it is. As the Scriptures and the aforemention Council affirm.

so God chooses whom to give the gift of salvation to and whom to restrict? No, all are offered redemption and faith, but those who cooperate with faith are actually faithfull.

The Scriptures do not say that God restricts anyone. Since the Scriptures teach that faith is a gift and grace is a gift, a gift cannot be cooperated with (in the sense that one acquires it by cooperating). However, one may reject it.