Why did the Protestant Reformation happen?

[Per_Crucem]

Yes exactly and that is what Catholics believe.

I do however think that protestants, and I’m talking about the more established denominations. Believe as Luther says, that sinning does not affect faith.

Regardless of what Luther may or may not have said, our confessions teach that mortal, unrepentant sin, will cause one to no longer have the gift of faith, as such actions are a rejection of the Holy Spirit, who is the Giver of faith.

 

[Atisor207]

Hi Atisor: yes, many do ignore Scripture passages such as you quoted. I myself like the Beatitudes as it say much in the way one should live and act towards our fellow man.

Yes I pray for the grace of each beatitude as I think Jesus was describing the souls of the saints. Those already in heaven. So I pray to be meek, peaceful, pure of heart, etc. I believe with those virtues one can read beatific vision.
It is hard though.
The last sentence of the Sermon is kind of scary. “Be perfect as your Father Is perfect”
A real test of faithfulness.

 

[Atisor207]

Regardless of what Luther may or may not have said, our confessions teach that mortal, unrepentant sin, will cause one to no longer have the gift of faith, as such actions are a rejection of the Holy Spirit, who is the Giver of faith.

Yes we believe exactly the same. Faith is something we have to preserve, maintain, and practice. A kind of living faith.

I think many Catholics may associate Lutherans with other more modern denominations that believe in heresies such as OSAS, etc.

I know that Lutherans at least believe that sin will cause a rejection of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. That we have in common.

 

[rcwitness]

Of course it is. As the Scriptures and the aforemention Council affirm.

Yes, faith is a gift.

The Scriptures do not say that God restricts anyone. Since the Scriptures teach that faith is a gift and grace is a gift, a gift cannot be cooperated with (in the sense that one acquires it by cooperating). However, one may reject it.

This gift must be cooperated with, or it is taken away.

Cooperation with God does not mean God needed to offer us His grace.

The first work of the believer is conversion. The Lord Himself says, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

So, then James further defines what true “belief in Him” means. It means to do works which complete faith. This is cooperation with God in order to be Justified. Mere belief is equivalent to demons. Cooperating with belief leads to Salvation.

We are not judged according to what we believe alone, but what we have been faithfull in doing.

Revelations 22

12 “See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

 

[steido01]

There absolutely nothing new about it. Catholics also believe that we are saved by faith.

We don’t believe that faith does not produce works.

For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. James 2:26

This reminds me of a quote that went something like this…

It is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!

That was written by a guy named Martin Luther. Sounds to me like you’re battling a caricature of Lutheranism, rather than actual Lutheran belief.

Edit: Didn’t see your post #83. Nevermind, then. You understand that Lutherans do note that works will happen when Faith exists in the believer.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Yes, faith is a gift.

This gift must be cooperated with, or it is taken away.

Cooperation with God does not mean God needed to offer us His grace.

The first work of the believer is conversion. The Lord Himself says, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

So, then James further defines what true “belief in Him” means. It means to do works which complete faith. This is cooperation with God in order to be Justified. Mere belief is equivalent to demons. Cooperating with belief leads to Salvation.

We are not judged according to what we believe alone, but what we have been faithfull in doing.

Revelations 22

12 “See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

From the aforementioned Council. Emphasis mine.

CONCLUSION. And thus according to the passages of holy scripture quoted above or the interpretations of the ancient Fathers we must, under the blessing of God, preach and believe as follows. The sin of the first man has so impaired and weakened free will that no one thereafter can either love God as he ought or believe in God or do good for God’s sake, unless the grace of divine mercy has preceded him. We therefore believe that the glorious faith which was given to Abel the righteous, and Noah, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and to all the saints of old, and which the Apostle Paul commends in extolling them (Heb. 11), was not given through natural goodness as it was before to Adam, but was bestowed by the grace of God. And we know and also believe that even after the coming of our Lord this grace is not to be found in the free will of all who desire to be baptized, but is bestowed by the kindness of Christ, as has already been frequently stated and as the Apostle Paul declares, “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake” (Phil. 1:29). And again, “He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and it is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). And as the Apostle says of himself, “I have obtained mercy to be faithful” (1 Cor. 7:25, cf. 1 Tim. 1:13). He did not say, “because I was faithful,” but “to be faithful.” And again, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7). And again, “Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights” (Jas. 1:17). And again, “No one can receive anything except what is given him from heaven” (John 3:27). There are innumerable passages of holy scripture which can be quoted to prove the case for grace, but they have been omitted for the sake of brevity, because further examples will not really be of use where few are deemed sufficient.

According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema. We also believe and confess to our benefit that in every good work it is** not we **who take the initiative and are then assisted through the mercy of God, but God himself first inspires in us both faith in him and love for him without any previous good works of our own that deserve reward, so that we may both faithfully seek the sacrament of baptism, and after baptism be able by his help to do what is pleasing to him. We must therefore most evidently believe that the praiseworthy faith of the thief whom the Lord called to his home in paradise, and of Cornelius the centurion, to whom the angel of the Lord was sent, and of Zacchaeus, who was worthy to receive the Lord himself, was not a natural endowment but a gift of God’s kindness.

 

[Atisor207]

This reminds me of a quote that went something like this…

That was written by a guy named Martin Luther. Sounds to me like you’re battling a caricature of Lutheranism, rather than actual Lutheran belief.

Edit: Didn’t see your post #83. Nevermind, then. You understand that Lutherans do note that works will happen when Faith exists in the believer.

I was actually reaffirming another Catholic’s point of view.

And would that statement contradict “Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ more strongly, who triumphed over sin, death, and the world; as long as we live here, we must sin.”’.

 

[Atisor207]

From the aforementioned Council. Emphasis mine.

CONCLUSION. And thus according to the passages of holy scripture quoted above or the interpretations of the ancient Fathers we must, under the blessing of God, preach and believe as follows. The sin of the first man has so impaired and weakened free will that no one thereafter can either love God as he ought or believe in God or do good for God’s sake, unless the grace of divine mercy has preceded him. We therefore believe that the glorious faith which was given to Abel the righteous, and Noah, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and to all the saints of old, and which the Apostle Paul commends in extolling them (Heb. 11), was not given through natural goodness as it was before to Adam, but was bestowed by the grace of God. And we know and also believe that even after the coming of our Lord this grace is not to be found in the free will of all who desire to be baptized, but is bestowed by the kindness of Christ, as has already been frequently stated and as the Apostle Paul declares, “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake” (Phil. 1:29). And again, “He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and it is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). And as the Apostle says of himself, “I have obtained mercy to be faithful” (1 Cor. 7:25, cf. 1 Tim. 1:13). He did not say, “because I was faithful,” but “to be faithful.” And again, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7). And again, “Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights” (Jas. 1:17). And again, “No one can receive anything except what is given him from heaven” (John 3:27). There are innumerable passages of holy scripture which can be quoted to prove the case for grace, but they have been omitted for the sake of brevity, because further examples will not really be of use where few are deemed sufficient.

According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema. We also believe and confess to our benefit that in every good work it is** not we **who take the initiative and are then assisted through the mercy of God, but God himself first inspires in us both faith in him and love for him without any previous good works of our own that deserve reward, so that we may both faithfully seek the sacrament of baptism, and after baptism be able by his help to do what is pleasing to him. We must therefore most evidently believe that the praiseworthy faith of the thief whom the Lord called to his home in paradise, and of Cornelius the centurion, to whom the angel of the Lord was sent, and of Zacchaeus, who was worthy to receive the Lord himself, was not a natural endowment but a gift of God’s kindness.

I don’t see how it states that faith is not being faithful. It states our similar belief on baptism. It states that with the gifts given by the Holy Spirit are the root of our works.

 

[Per_Crucem]

I was actually reaffirming another Catholic’s point of view.

And would that statement contradict “Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ more strongly, who triumphed over sin, death, and the world; as long as we live here, we must sin.”’.

Taking a snippet out of one long letter and attempting to use it to define an entire theology, is probably not going to get you anywhere.

 

[Per_Crucem]

I don’t see how it states that faith is not being faithful. It states our similar belief on baptism. It states that with the gifts given by the Holy Spirit are the root of our works.

Yes, it does. It also says that our faithfulness does not obtain mercy. But that our faithfulness is because we’ve been given mercy [by Christ].

 

[Atisor207]

Taking a snippet out of one long letter and attempting to use it to define an entire theology, is probably not going to get you anywhere.

Here is a good article I recommend you by Peter Kreeft

Where then do good works come in? In Christian Liberty, Luther explains that after the great liberation about faith — that we are saved by faith in Christ’s work, not by our works — comes a great liberation about works: they need not be done slavishly, to buy our way into heaven, to pile up merits or Brownie points with God, but can be done freely and spontaneously and naturally, out of gratitude to God — not to get to heaven but because heaven has already gotten to us. Thus they can be done for the sake of our neighbor, not for our own sake, to purchase salvation. And this is winsome. No one wants to be loved as someone else’s good deed for the day.

Read more at: catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0027.html

Let’s not forget that Luther himself said James’ statement that justification is not by faith alone contradicts Romans.
Yet he added the word alone to Romans.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Why did the Protestant Reformation happen? Could the Reformation and the negative ramifications that came for it (bloodshed, massacre of Catholics in Protestant countries, international warfare, discrimination of Catholics, etc. )have been prevented?

It happened because it was needed and it was meant to happen.

As far as, “Could the Reformation and the negative ramifications that came for it (bloodshed, massacre of Catholics in Protestant countries, international warfare, discrimination of Catholics, etc. )have been prevented?”

Apparently not, since they happened and the “what if” game should be overlooked and we should try to learn from what happened and see that the “arrogance” of some of the “higher-ups” had to be addressed and God saw to it that it was brought to people’s attention even if some of them ignored the obvious.

Ever heard of the saying, “My (God) Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts”, could be that God works in ways that we, at least some of us, don’t quite approve of but nevertheless God does attempt to get our attention even tho as my namesake said, “These are hard headed and stiff necked people”, have we changed?

 

[spina1953]

Yes I pray for the grace of each beatitude as I think Jesus was describing the souls of the saints. Those already in heaven. So I pray to be meek, peaceful, pure of heart, etc. I believe with those virtues one can read beatific vision.
It is hard though.
The last sentence of the Sermon is kind of scary. “Be perfect as your Father Is perfect”
A real test of faithfulness.

Hi Atisor: The beatific vision will only happen when we attain heaven. However, one can reach a form of union with Christ by living the life as he had taught through the Gospels. The beatitudes are a way of living the Gospels, can be difficult at times just as being perfect as Our Father in heaven is but it is not how well we live it but how much love we do it.

 

[Abu]

Tom Baum #92
It happened because it was needed and it was meant to happen.

No.
It was not “needed” because it was not a renewal but a revolt against truth and Christ’s Church. Nothing is “meant to happen” – human endeavour operates either in truth, or in falsehood through human error.

Only in the Catholic Church are the positive principles the Reformation affirmed found without the negative elements the Reformers mistakenly affixed to them.

 

[Contarini]

I was actually reaffirming another Catholic’s point of view.

And would that statement contradict “Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ more strongly, who triumphed over sin, death, and the world; as long as we live here, we must sin.”’.

No. Not at all. Not if you understand that this statement was deliberately shocking rhetoric.

Luther thought that no matter how hard we try, we will sin. So trying to avoid sin, per se, won’t get you anywhere. Trusting in Christ, however, will result in you doing good works joyfully and struggling against the works of the flesh out of love and not out of fear.

Edwin

 

[spina1953]

Oh I agree with you. I was certainly not saying that one can have faith without being faithful.

The same scriptures provide vast amounts of how we can be faithful to God

We can start with the Sermon on the Mount when Jesus spoke to us about not violating the most basic commandments.

We can also read many parables. The 5 women with the lamps is a good one.

Also, remember when a follower of Jesus asked Him how he could gain eternal life and Jesus replied “follow the commandments”

Hi Atisor: I agree> I also think that the NT is filled all that we need in order to live in the way God wants us to live. Jesus said about the Commandments in which He narrowed it down to two is to God etc. and to love our neighbor as ourselves. If one really loves God than one will love one’s neighbor since it is a way of showing our love of God. One does not love God but not one’s neighbor and also while very difficult one should try to love our neighbor as God love our neighbor.

 

[JonNC]

This is exactly what Luther said… among other things…

Luther’s letters, written to Melancthon in 1521,
“Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ more strongly, who triumphed over sin, death, and the world; as long as we live here, we must sin.”’

I won’t take the time to provide the context for this brief quote out of the letter, but…
tquid.sharpens.org/sin_boldly.htm#a1

Two things to remember:

1. this was not a doctrinal statement, but a personal letter to a friend and fellow theologian. The expectation would be there that Melanchthon would infer the necessity of repentance and confession, the need for absolution.
2. Luther regularly uses hyperbole in his writings. It is one way he tries to make his point. The entire letter is not about getting away with sin. It is about the overwhelming grace accorded to us by Christ Himself.

Jon

 

[Tom_Baum]

No.
It was not “needed” because it was not a renewal but a revolt against truth and Christ’s Church. Nothing is “meant to happen” – human endeavour operates either in truth, or in falsehood through human error.

Only in the Catholic Church are the positive principles the Reformation affirmed found without the negative elements the Reformers mistakenly affixed to them.

Is buying your way into heaven a truth?

Are you saying that the Incarnation of God was not " “meant to happen” "?

There are many things that have been “meant to happen”, one of which is the fall of man and its accompanying circumstances which the CC calls “O Happy Fault”.

Pope John Paul II went around the whole world making public penances for the “sins” of the Catholic Church, do you think that this was meant to happen when it did or do you think that it was not meant to happen and therefore was a mistake for Pope John Paul II to do?

Jesus never said that HIS Church would do no wrong, what He said was that “the gates of the netherworld would not prevail against It”.

The Catholic Church has done much wrong and has done much right over the years and to ignore either is to ignore reality.

 

[Abu]

Tom Baum #98
Pope John Paul II went around the whole world making public penances for the “sins” of the Catholic Church, do you think that this was meant to happen when it did or do you think that it was not meant to happen and therefore was a mistake for Pope John Paul II to do?

During the Great Jubilee year, Bl John Paul II issued a famous “apology” or act of contrition on behalf of the entire Catholic Church for the serious sins committed by its members over its almost 2,000 years of history.
In First Things (November 1997), Harvard Law Professor Mary Ann Glendon wrote that “the Pope himself has acknowledged the mistakes and sins of Christians in connection with, among other things, the Crusades, the Inquisition, persecution of the Jews, religious wars, Galileo, and the treatment of women. Thus, though the Pope himself is careful to speak of sin or error on the part of the Church’s members or representatives, rather than the Church in its fullness, that important theological distinction is almost always lost in the transmission.”

Apology for the sins of Catholics, never for “the Church”.

Jesus never said that HIS Church would do no wrong, what He said was that “the gates of the netherworld would not prevail against It”.

Thus the Pope never apologises for the Church which is “held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy” [Vatican II, *Lumen Gentium, art 39].

 

[glendab]

This question to me is like asking “Why did the Babylonian exile happen?” Nothing, absolutely nothing happens outside God willing it. His permissive will combined with the fallen human nature and what it lead to in various places and persons allowed the Church to be devastated by heresy and schism. The “Reformation” to me is the Protestant Revolt. It was the throwing off of the gentle yoke of Christ in favor of the whims and fancies of some individuals and they couldn’t have gotten very far if there weren’t a bunch of like minded souls who wanted to go where they (Luther, Calvin, King Henry, etc) wanted to take them. I am a firm believer in the adage “No one can take you some place you aren’t willing to go.”

The “Reformation” to me is the scandal of disunity among Christians and even to this day it effects how others see the Church as a whole. I have just begun to study seriously that time period and am learning more each day.

Glenda