Why did the Protestant Reformation happen?

[Atisor207]

I won’t take the time to provide the context for this brief quote out of the letter, but…
tquid.sharpens.org/sin_boldly.htm#a1

Two things to remember:

1. this was not a doctrinal statement, but a personal letter to a friend and fellow theologian. The expectation would be there that Melanchthon would infer the necessity of repentance and confession, the need for absolution.
2. Luther regularly uses hyperbole in his writings. It is one way he tries to make his point. The entire letter is not about getting away with sin. It is about the overwhelming grace accorded to us by Christ Himself.

Jon

Yes I get what you mean.

 

[rcwitness]

From the aforementioned Council. Emphasis mine.

CONCLUSION. And thus according to the passages of holy scripture quoted above or the interpretations of the ancient Fathers we must, under the blessing of God, preach and believe as follows. The sin of the first man has so impaired and weakened free will that no one thereafter can either love God as he ought or believe in God or do good for God’s sake, unless the grace of divine mercy has preceded him. We therefore believe that the glorious faith which was given to Abel the righteous, and Noah, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and to all the saints of old, and which the Apostle Paul commends in extolling them (Heb. 11), was not given through natural goodness as it was before to Adam, but was bestowed by the grace of God. And we know and also believe that even after the coming of our Lord this grace is not to be found in the free will of all who desire to be baptized, but is bestowed by the kindness of Christ, as has already been frequently stated and as the Apostle Paul declares, “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake” (Phil. 1:29). And again, “He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and it is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). And as the Apostle says of himself, “I have obtained mercy to be faithful” (1 Cor. 7:25, cf. 1 Tim. 1:13). He did not say, “because I was faithful,” but “to be faithful.” And again, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7). And again, “Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights” (Jas. 1:17). And again, “No one can receive anything except what is given him from heaven” (John 3:27). There are innumerable passages of holy scripture which can be quoted to prove the case for grace, but they have been omitted for the sake of brevity, because further examples will not really be of use where few are deemed sufficient.

According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema. We also believe and confess to our benefit that in every good work it is** not we **who take the initiative and are then assisted through the mercy of God, but God himself first inspires in us both faith in him and love for him without any previous good works of our own that deserve reward, so that we may both faithfully seek the sacrament of baptism, and after baptism be able by his help to do what is pleasing to him. We must therefore most evidently believe that the praiseworthy faith of the thief whom the Lord called to his home in paradise, and of Cornelius the centurion, to whom the angel of the Lord was sent, and of Zacchaeus, who was worthy to receive the Lord himself, was not a natural endowment but a gift of God’s kindness.

Again, this does NOT tell us our cooperation is not necessary for salvation. It tells us without God’s mercy and continual assistance we are unable to cooperate with God.

Paul tells us we are heirs of God, provided we suffer with HIm.

This does not mean that our suffering in righteousness brought down the grace of God. God’s grace came in order to create a new heart in us through conversion. Through faith, we believe and turn from ourselves to the Will of God. This is done by submitting rather than taking control. Then we are given further grace in order to use self control. Our conscience is restored through a heart washed by the Blood of Jesus. We then see what is pleasing to the Lord. Then, we must rely on His grace to give strength to us to resist oncoming temptations and faillible nature.

I cannot ignore the fact that this belief demands cooperation, even though it is only profitable because the Holy Spirit is our helper. Also, the Church Teaches that our wills do cooperate with God’s Salvation, but in the means of submission. He is the groom and we are the bride.

 

[Abu]

rcwitness #102
Paul tells us we are heirs of God, provided we suffer with HIm.

Precisely.

St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ! We are redeemed by Christ’s Passion and Death (heaven was opened); we are not saved until we co-operate with Him.

St Paul is very clear: “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of His Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, following the dictates of our conscience.

Jesus redeemed us (opened Heaven), we have to play our part. If anyone was to be saved your way it would have been Paul! But he clearly showed the error of that: “But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.” (1Cor 9:27). And again: “Wherefore he who thinks that he stands, let him take heed lest he fall.” (1 Cor 10:12). Yet again, “And we exhort you not to receive the grace of God in vain.” (2 Cor 6:1).

“It is not those who say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of My Father in heaven.” (Mt 7:21).

When asked “What must I do to have eternal life?” Jesus answered, “Keep the commandments.” (Mt 19:16-17).

 

[rcwitness]

No, what we say is that it is not cooperation with God that is a cause of our justification. Rather, our cooperation with God is the fruit of our justification before God. It is not that we “do not need to.” It is that the doing is the fruit not the root.

In the end, I think there were several reasons for the reformation of the Catholic Chirch in Rome. Many of our leaders gave into shamefull gain.

This article that Atisor207 provided is very good:
catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0027.html

One very interesting thing mentioned (not sure how accurate it is) is that Martin Luther’s confessor encouraged him to read Romans. This contradicts alot of the myth that scripture reading was not encouraged. It wasnt as easy back then because of the Scriptures being hand printed volumes and those who wanted to read them needed to show alot of genuine interest and devotion. They couldnt just be rented and taken home for the weekend.

But after all the dust settled from the Protestant Reformation, and the Catholic Church recognized the need to provide a better understanding of doctrines being abused, and eventually leaders like Benedict XVI met with Lutherans to settle division regarding the Teachings of Justification, there is still the spirit of division.

Benedict said Martin Luther was correct that we are Justified by faith, as long as this faith is not opposed to Charity! This Charity is the result of our soul being inspired and illuminated by the love of Christ. It is His creating and working in us.

Is our cooperation the cause of our justification?

This is the heart of what seperates us in doctrine. Not so much what protestants actually do, and not so much what Catholics do, but what do we profess is the way in which we are saved.

Jesus Himself told us many times it is whoever does the Will of His Father who will be saved. And He tells us this:

29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

He said this while revealing to us the gift of His Eucharistic sacrifice. He told us we would be saved by “eating” His body and blood. He Himself would accomplish our salvation and we would eat Him to live. Now, Paul lets us also know that we can eat Him unworthy. We can believe without conversion. We can encure more defilement on us by taking the gift but not cooperating with the gift!

Here is the Scripture which Martin Luther could not accept:

James 2:24New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

But we must accept this scripture! And we would do harm to twist it.

I do not understand why Martin Luther could teach that James’ apistle is straw!!! It is nearly my favorite book in all Scripture! How can any Divinely inspired book be mere straw! That is an awfull thing to say about God’s Word. But there is a reason. This book shed light on the weakness of his doctrine. This book shows us that true belief in Jesus, and true work which justifies us is doing and participating and cooperating with God.

When we conform our will’s to the Will of God, we will do all kinds of works which please Him. Then we will be reconciled to Him through Christ’s grace personally. Because all mankind is reconciled already through the Holy Spirit dwelling in the flesh of Jesus Christ. Our faith will save us when we allow it to work in us.

 

[JonNC]

Yes I get what you mean.

Thanks. And welcome to CAF.

Jon

 

[Tom_Baum]

Precisely.

St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ! We are redeemed by Christ’s Passion and Death (heaven was opened); we are not saved until we co-operate with Him.

St Paul is very clear: “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of His Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, following the dictates of our conscience.

Jesus redeemed us (opened Heaven), we have to play our part. If anyone was to be saved your way it would have been Paul! But he clearly showed the error of that: “But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.” (1Cor 9:27). And again: “Wherefore he who thinks that he stands, let him take heed lest he fall.” (1 Cor 10:12). Yet again, “And we exhort you not to receive the grace of God in vain.” (2 Cor 6:1).

“It is not those who say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of My Father in heaven.” (Mt 7:21).

When asked “What must I do to have eternal life?” Jesus answered, “Keep the commandments.” (Mt 19:16-17).

Didn’t Paul write the letters to Timothy and wasn’t it in one of them that Paul wrote, “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who WILLS EVERYONE to be SAVED and to come to knowledge of the truth.”

Maybe we should pray for “GOD’S WILL”.

Didn’t Jesus reportedly try to teach us to pray "Our Father… Thy Kingdom come, Thy WILL be done…"when He was asked by the Apostles to teach them how to pray?

You quoted some things in the Bible but there are other things in the Bible than what you quoted, aren’t there?

 

[Denise1957]

Excerpts here point to the reasons as none other than the brilliant Archbishop Charles Chaput observes.

December 19, 2012
What the Reformation has Wrought
by Archbishop Charles J. Chaput, O.F.M. Cap
Contemporary Problems Developed Over Centuries
"Brad Gregory, the Notre Dame historian, seeks to show how we got this way in his recent book The Unintended Reformation: How a Religious Revolution Secularized Society. His answers are surprising, and for some readers, controversial. But his book is also important—and in its explanatory power, brilliant.

"Gregory argues that today’s relativism and cult of the consumer—what he ironically calls “the goods life”—have roots that run centuries deep. He wastes no time on nostalgia for a golden age that never existed. But he does show with riveting clarity that in the sixteenth century, Protestant Reformers unintentionally set in motion certain ideas that eventually enabled today’s radical self-centeredness.

"Late medieval clergy too often preached one thing and did another. Greed, simony, nepotism, luxury, sexual license, and schism in the hierarchy created an intolerable gap between Christian preaching and practice.

"Many Catholics worked for reform from within. Some had success. Franciscans, Dominicans, and Cistercians owe their origins to medieval reform. Humanists such as Erasmus and Thomas More were part of an international community of letters determined to renew Christian life from the inside. Saints such as Catherine of Siena and Bernard of Clairvaux spoke truth to ecclesiastical power.

"But one key difference separated these Catholic voices from the Protestant Reformers: The Catholics believed that the Church had her teachings right. She just needed to actually live them. The Catholics believed that Christ’s presence in the Eucharist and other sacraments, in the Scriptures, in the saints, and in the Church’s historic doctrines offered an authentic, all-encompassing Christian way of life sufficient to sanctify human existence—if it was actually embraced and shorn of its abuses.
"The Protestants, preaching sola scriptura, threw much of it away.

"Competing interpretations of Scripture actually intensified the confusion. Lutherans read Scripture one way, Calvinists another, with varieties of Anglicans, Anabaptists, Baptists, Puritans, Pietists, Methodists, and Quakers veering off into options beyond counting.
Gregory also chronicles the secular philosophers who stepped into the breach. In the place of sola scriptura, the Enlightenment offered wisdom sola ratio. From Descartes, through Hobbes, Spinoza, Rousseau, Kant, Hume, Hegel, and others, on to Heidegger and Levinas and their successors, the great end-run around revealed religion and its traditions began, seeking truth based on human reason alone.

“But as Gregory shows, the philosophers fared no better than the Reformers. Competing ideas proliferated. Truth, and answers to life’s big questions, remained disputed. In more recent times, Nietzsche, Foucault, and the post-modernists have been honest enough to say so, scorning the Enlightenment as much as they scorned Christianity. We can see the results in today’s pervasive spirit of irony and skepticism.”

‘The Reformation has led, by gradual, indirect, and never-intended steps, to what Gregory calls the “Kingdom of Whatever.” It’s a world of hyperpluralism, where meaning is self-invented by millions, and therefore society as a whole starves for meaning.’
crisismagazine.com/2012/what-the-reformation-has-wrought

Wow, this is a really excellent commentary on the subject of the Reformation, by Archbishop Chaput, especially the last paragraph:

“The Reformation has led, by gradual, indirect, and never-ending steps, to what Gregory calls the “Kingdom of Whatever.” It’s a world of hyper-pluralism, where meaning is self-invented by millions, and therefore society starves as a whole for meaning.”

I would encourage everyone on this thread to read the entire article.

 

[rcwitness]

The other piece of important information which is a testament to the necessity of constant attention in this article…

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0027.html

But many Catholics to this day have not learned the Catholic and biblical doctrine. They think we are saved by good intentions or being nice or sincere or trying a little harder or doing a sufficient number of good deeds. Over the past twenty-five years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: If you should die tonight and God asks you why he should let you into heaven, what would you answer? The vast majority of them simply do not know the right answer to this, the most important of all questions, the very essence of Christianity. They usually do not even mention Jesus!

This is what I am getting tired of in everyday practical life and fellowship among Catholics. I don’t specifically ask “why will you be saved if you died today?”, but the overall sense of morality and genuine love for Jesus by many Catholics around me. When our faith is reduced to genuflects, Sunday Mass, only Rosary prayers, holy water splashes and then go about life without real conviction to suffer for righteousness and evangelization, then we really don’t appreciate what is at stake and how distant we can become from Jesus.

For example, I was at dinner table with my wife’s sister in law and there were a couple neighbor girls having some pizza with us. I asked if they prayed and they said no, so I asked my wife’s SIL to pray for us (she boasts of having a devotion to Mary). She said,"She is not Catholic (pointing to one of the girls)! I said,“That’s not a problem” and then the girl said,“yes I am.” I am loosing patience with this kind of fony faith, which has no clue what true devotion really is!

Take it for what it is.

 

[spina1953]

The other piece of important information which is a testament to the necessity of constant attention in this article…

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0027.html

But many Catholics to this day have not learned the Catholic and biblical doctrine. They think we are saved by good intentions or being nice or sincere or trying a little harder or doing a sufficient number of good deeds. Over the past twenty-five years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: If you should die tonight and God asks you why he should let you into heaven, what would you answer? The vast majority of them simply do not know the right answer to this, the most important of all questions, the very essence of Christianity. They usually do not even mention Jesus!

This is what I am getting tired of in everyday practical life and fellowship among Catholics. I don’t specifically ask “why will you be saved if you died today?”, but the overall sense of morality and genuine love for Jesus by many Catholics around me. When our faith is reduced to genuflects, Sunday Mass, only Rosary prayers, holy water splashes and then go about life without real conviction to suffer for righteousness and evangelization, then we really don’t appreciate what is at stake and how distant we can become from Jesus.

For example, I was at dinner table with my wife’s sister in law and there were a couple neighbor girls having some pizza with us. I asked if they prayed and they said no, so I asked my wife’s SIL to pray for us (she boasts of having a devotion to Mary). She said,"She is not Catholic (pointing to one of the girls)! I said,“That’s not a problem” and then the girl said,“yes I am.” I am loosing patience with this kind of fony faith, which has no clue what true devotion really is!

Take it for what it is.

Hi rewitness: I agree with you 100%. it is so sad that so many Catholic’s do not really know their faith, or what the Catholic Church teaches. What get to me is after Mass many will stand outside of the Church and proceed to gossip about others and forget what the priest said. Peace and God bless

 

[Atisor207]

Hi rewitness: I agree with you 100%. it is so sad that so many Catholic’s do not really know their faith, or what the Catholic Church teaches. What get to me is after Mass many will stand outside of the Church and proceed to gossip about others and forget what the priest said. Peace and God bless

I used to be one of those who went to Mass socially. Until one day it hit me like a truck. The Holy Spirit woke me up and wow when I actually believed I changed 360 degrees. So there is still hope.

 

[rcwitness]

Hi rewitness: I agree with you 100%. it is so sad that so many Catholic’s do not really know their faith, or what the Catholic Church teaches. What get to me is after Mass many will stand outside of the Church and proceed to gossip about others and forget what the priest said. Peace and God bless

Yes! There is blatant ignoring the message! The hypocracy and insincerety is beginning to disturb me. But I will do my best to remember my faults and fellowship about these issues. The Christian life is a challenge for all of us.

I used to be one of those who went to Mass socially. Until one day it hit me like a truck. The Holy Spirit woke me up and wow when I actually believed I changed 360 degrees. So there is still hope.

That’s awsome!

 

[spina1953]

I used to be one of those who went to Mass socially. Until one day it hit me like a truck. The Holy Spirit woke me up and wow when I actually believed I changed 360 degrees. So there is still hope.

Hi Atisor: I pray for those who are not versed versed in our faith or go to Mass socially, its all one can do and let God do His work.

 

[Abu]

Tom Baum #106
You quoted some things in the Bible but there are other things in the Bible than what you quoted, aren’t there?

What point are you trying to make concerning my examples of the confirmation by Our Lord of the need for suffering?

We are redeemed but cannot be saved unless we cooperate with God, recant and repent of our sins, and all salvation for all comes only through His Church.

 

[spina1953]

Yes! There is blatant ignoring the message! The hypocracy and insincerety is beginning to disturb me. But I will do my best to remember my faults and fellowship about these issues. The Christian life is a challenge for all of us.

That’s awsome!

What I do is pray for them and hope that God will do His work and that they will change and hear the message.

 

[Atisor207]

Hi Atisor: I pray for those who are not versed versed in our faith or go to Mass socially, its all one can do and let God do His work.

yes exactly the Holy Spirit does the work, but we must be willing.

I remember I prayed one night to give me faith. After a few months my entire life changed.

Will power is the key.

“You don’t have to be worthy, you only have to be willing” Padre Pio

 

[spina1953]

yes exactly the Holy Spirit does the work, but we must be willing.

I remember I prayed one night to give me faith. After a few months my entire life changed.

Will power is the key.

“You don’t have to be worthy, you only have to be willing” Padre Pio

Hi Atisor: I agree! prayer is the key that opens the door to God through Christ and the Holy Spirit. remember Gods is always calling us to be with Him and He wants to be a part of our life and in our life. it is amazing what God can and will do when we are willing to respond to His love.

 

[rcwitness]

Jesus said, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock.”

It takes cooperation to open the door. It takes trust (faith) for sure, but also cooperation. Paul reminded us what it took for Christ to get to our door. We did not invite Him. We did not give Him directions. And we did not go out and help Him as though He was lost. The door we were behind was to a house which was going to be burned down.

Many do not open the door. Is it Jesus’ lack of grace which holds them back? Of course not. It is their unwillingness to seek. Jesus said, “Seek and ye shall find”. And since the grace of God poured out through Jesus, we are able to share in His ministry. "I was hungry and you gave Me food. I was thirsty and you gave Me drink. I was naked and you gave Me clothes. I was sick and you tended to Me. I was in prison and you visited Me.

I know an unbeliever who swore to me he tried to pray, yet nothing ever happened.

He did not pray from God’s faith, but from his own human reasoning alone. He did not pray to give thanks to God, but for self enlightenment. He did not pray with thanks that was willing to hand over his sinfullness.

I truly believe that there are many Catholics who are in need of their Protestant brothers and sisters encouragement. Some of us Catholics are overwhelmed with the amount of people who are luke warm. Protestants see this and may very well cherish Christ more. But is it building up the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church to abandon the Eucharist into the hands of those who abuse Him? I say we have a duty to either take the Eucharist out of abusers hands with the conviction of their profanity of God’s grace, or suffer with them until their conversion of heart. Then we can go into the world as one Ministry for Christ.

 

[Denise1957]

I have to wonder if the Protestant reformation has contributed to the lukewarmness of some (many?) Catholics. I dunno - just a thought.

 

[rcwitness]

I have to wonder if the Protestant reformation has contributed to the lukewarmness of some (many?) Catholics. I dunno - just a thought.

Not sure how…

I think its just worldliness. Pleasures and an indifference to suffering with Jesus. But imagining sacraments superstitiously make things all better. There is not a conscious awareness that more Sacrament bring more judgment on sinfullness not turned from.

 

[spina1953]

Not sure how…

I think its just worldliness. Pleasures and an indifference to suffering with Jesus. But imagining sacraments superstitiously make things all better. There is not a conscious awareness that more Sacrament bring more judgment on sinfullness not turned from.

Hi rewitness: I too think it is worldiness.it seems that throughout human history man has found ways to do as he pleases at the expense of others less fortunate. Today we are bombarded by everything under the sun to have this or that or to die for or must have in order to have a life. There are those who are always trying to convince us that their ways or thinking is correct against what morals and ethic’s say in order to promote their type of life that they think everyone should either accept or agree with. Whether its Protestants or Catholic’s or non- Christians it really does not matter as one either follows the ways of the world or they do not. IOWS, we either believe in what God through Jesus and the Catholic Church teaches or one does not and believes in what the world offers and the live it wants to promote.