Why did the Protestant Reformation happen?

[Denise1957]

Yes, perhaps it is worldliness, but even this has possibly been at least partially brought on by secularization having to do with the changing principles of the dominant culture - which up until recently was Protestant in construct. Our culture is quickly becoming secular, and abandoning it’s Christian principles.

On the other hand, those who may be more traditionally minded - like myself - believe that a true renewal of the Church cannot take place without a renewed devotion to Holy Eucharist. It has been assumed that many Catholics no longer believe in the Real Presence, but at my parish this doesn’t seem to be the case. They DO believe in the Real Presence - but it’s just not a big deal. The attitude toward Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist is lukewarm, and taken for granted.

Until there is a renewed sense of the Sacred in regards to holy Eucharist, which is the source and summit of our life as Catholics, the lukewarmness won’t get better, IMO.

 

[Contarini]

I have to wonder if the Protestant reformation has contributed to the lukewarmness of some (many?) Catholics. I dunno - just a thought.

I don’t see what evidence this thought would be based on. It seems more likely that it’s the other way round.

Competition tends to increase commitment on both sides.

That does not justify Christian division, but it does explain the traditional Christian understanding that heresy is God’s judgment on the Church.

Catholics ought to be devoted to Christ just because, but if they aren’t, the inevitable result will be that heresies will develop, and these heresies will in turn provoke Catholics to “envy” (in St. Paul’s positive sense). This ought then to lead to the integration of the separated brethren into the Church. That’s the part that Protestants want to skip

Edwin

 

[Denise1957]

I don’t see what evidence this thought would be based on. It seems more likely that it’s the other way round.

Competition tends to increase commitment on both sides.

That does not justify Christian division, but it does explain the traditional Christian understanding that heresy is God’s judgment on the Church.

Catholics ought to be devoted to Christ just because, but if they aren’t, the inevitable result will be that heresies will develop, and these heresies will in turn provoke Catholics to “envy” (in St. Paul’s positive sense). This ought then to lead to the integration of the separated brethren into the Church. That’s the part that Protestants want to skip

Edwin

I’m having trouble understanding what you mean by competition increasing commitment on both sides, and also what you mean by heresies provoking Catholics to envy.
It sounds like an interesting idea, but I’m not getting it, which isn’t unusual for me.

 

[rcwitness]

The thing we need to differentiate here is individual Catholics and individual Protestants from the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church

First of all, there is only One Church. Protestants should work together with the One Church leadership or they are causing division and harm to the whole body.

There is no way of determining what amount of Christian individuals in the many denomination are genuine. There are weeds amoung the wheat, and we are commanded to allow individuals the personal freedom of Communion with us, unless there sins are apparent and causing direct harm to others. Thats why leaders have authority to pronounce excommunication on some, while the Church militant is under the responsibility to suffer them in love, in order to convert their hearts.

The Catholic Church is so large and open to all who seek Sacraments, that we also are burdened with lukewarm members, who ride on the back of the Sacraments, while demoralizing those around them. This is modern persecution. It comes from within.

The Protestant approach is to bail on the Eucharist in order to preach the Gospel. The amount of Truth in the Gospel then, depends on the individual devotion. However, there will never be full Truth of the Gospel, because they have forsaken the Eucharist. Yet, many are not entirely held accountable for awareness of the Eucharist because they were raised under the impression they have the true and full communion (of Sola Scriptura). These individuals are able to do many good things for the kingdom and Jesus, but there remains the gap in fellowship and brotherhood. There remains the split ministry to the world. And while many individual Protestants may be fullfiling more of God’s will in their life than many individual Catholics are doing, our measure is not individual Christians, but Christ Himself. This is why our Eucharist is our measure and life. The Lord gave His Eucharist to only one Church.

 

[spina1953]

The thing we need to differentiate here is individual Catholics and individual Protestants from the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church

First of all, there is only One Church. Protestants should work together with the One Church leadership or they are causing division and harm to the whole body.

There is no way of determining what amount of Christian individuals in the many denomination are genuine. There are weeds amoung the wheat, and we are commanded to allow individuals the personal freedom of Communion with us, unless there sins are apparent and causing direct harm to others. Thats why leaders have authority to pronounce excommunication on some, while the Church militant is under the responsibility to suffer them in love, in order to convert their hearts.

The Catholic Church is so large and open to all who seek Sacraments, that we also are burdened with lukewarm members, who ride on the back of the Sacraments, while demoralizing those around them. This is modern persecution. It comes from within.

The Protestant approach is to bail on the Eucharist in order to preach the Gospel. The amount of Truth in the Gospel then, depends on the individual devotion. However, there will never be full Truth of the Gospel, because they have forsaken the Eucharist. Yet, many are not entirely held accountable for awareness of the Eucharist because they were raised under the impression they have the true and full communion (of Sola Scriptura). These individuals are able to do many good things for the kingdom and Jesus, but there remains the gap in fellowship and brotherhood. There remains the split ministry to the world. And while many individual Protestants may be fullfiling more of God’s will in their life than many individual Catholics are doing, our measure is not individual Christians, but Christ Himself. This is why our Eucharist is our measure and life. The Lord gave His Eucharist to only one Church.

Hi rcwitness: I could not agree with you more. There is no perfect Church and if there was it would no longer be perfect since everyone is a sinner and can be tempted and fall into sin the minute they enter the Church.

 

[Denise1957]

There is no way of determining what amount of Christian individuals in the many denomination are genuine. There are weeds amoung the wheat, and we are commanded to allow individuals the personal freedom of Communion with us, unless there sins are apparent and causing direct harm to others. Thats why leaders have authority to pronounce excommunication on some, while the Church militant is under the responsibility to suffer them in love, in order to convert their hearts.

I agree. My point of bringing up the lukewarm way in which many Catholic treat Holy Eucharist is not to condemn them. But in order to convert their hearts, we can try to be an example to them of proper disposition, or talk to the pastor at our parish about ways to foster greater Eucharistic devotion. Whenever I am tempted to think that I am better than other Catholics (which is the wrong thing to do) I try to remember Cardinal Merry del Val’s Litany of Humility, in which he states…“Grant that others will become holier than I, provided that I become as holy as I should.”

If Catholics are lukewarm in their devotion to Holy Eucharist, chances are that they are lukewarm in other regards to the Faith as well. We owe it to them, since we care about them, to help them to understand why it’s so important to understand what Holy Eucharist is, and what it means (or Who is means, rather.)

 

[Abu]

Denise1957 #118
I have to wonder if the Protestant reformation has contributed to the lukewarmness of some (many?) Catholics.

There can be question of the reality that the Protestant Revolution (there was no reformation but distortion) has degraded society as so eloquently expressed in the article which you so highly recommended: “I would encourage everyone on this thread to read the entire article.” (post #107).

From where else did the world get approval for contraception, divorce, jettisoning of Christ’s Church, the priesthood, of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and of other sacraments? Of course the weakness in so many Catholics, including clergy, is that of fawning to the world, the flesh and the devil – as from time immemorial.

That is not to forget that there are many Protestants who strive to do God’s Will as they see it.

spina1953 #125
There is no perfect Church and if there was it would no longer be perfect since everyone is a sinner and can be tempted and fall into sin the minute they enter the Church.

False. **"Thus the Pope never apologises for the Church which is ‘held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy’. " ** [Vatican II, *Lumen Gentium, art 39]. 'Apology for the sins of Catholics, never for “the Church”.’ (Post #99)

Further, it is Christ’s Church, established by God the Son, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity who created the world – and commanded “You therefore are to be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Mt 5:48). That is what we strive for.

 

[spina1953]

There can be question of the reality that the Protestant Revolution (there was no reformation but distortion) has degraded society as so eloquently expressed in the article which you so highly recommended: “I would encourage everyone on this thread to read the entire article.” (post #107).

From where else did the world get approval for contraception, divorce, jettisoning of Christ’s Church, the priesthood, of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and of other sacraments? Of course the weakness in so many Catholics, including clergy, is that of fawning to the world, the flesh and the devil – as from time immemorial.

That is not to forget that there are many Protestants who strive to do God’s Will as they see it.
False. **"Thus the Pope never apologises for the Church which is ‘held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy’. " ** [Vatican II, *Lumen Gentium

, art 39]. 'Apology for the sins of Catholics, never for “the Church”.’ (Post #99)

Further, it is Christ’s Church, established by God the Son, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity who created the world – and commanded “You therefore are to be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Mt 5:48). That is what we strive for.

Hi Abu: The Church is made up of people and all people are sinners. There is no perfect Church since as soon as a sinner enters a Church it is no longer perfect. This has nothing to do with the Church’s teachings because one either follows the teachings or they do not.

 

[Abu]

spina1953 #128
There is no perfect Church since as soon as a sinner enters a Church it is no longer perfect.

Where is the reference in Church teaching for your presumption? Since when can any real Catholic jettison the teaching of the Church in *Lumen Gentium *art 39, Vatican II, with impunity – without error?

Your assumption is false. **“Thus the Pope never apologises for the Church which is ‘held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy’ ” [Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, art 39]. ‘Apology for the sins of Catholics, never for ‘the Church’.” **(Posts #99, 127)

 

[spina1953]

Where is the reference in Church teaching for your presumption? Since when can any real Catholic jettison the teaching of the Church in *Lumen Gentium *art 39, Vatican II, with impunity – without error?

Your assumption is false. **“Thus the Pope never apologises for the Church which is ‘held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy’ ” [Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, art 39]. ‘Apology for the sins of Catholics, never for ‘the Church’.” **(Posts #99, 127)

Hi Abu I did not say anything about jettison the teaching of the Catholic Church, I think you misunderstand what I am referring to. The Church is made up of sinners, this does not mean that the Catholic Church itself is not Holy and in error as I never said that the Church was not Holy or in error.

 

[Denise1957]

There can be question of the reality that the Protestant Revolution (there was no reformation but distortion) has degraded society as so eloquently expressed in the article which you so highly recommended: “I would encourage everyone on this thread to read the entire article.” (post #107).

From where else did the world get approval for contraception, divorce, jettisoning of Christ’s Church, the priesthood, of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and of other sacraments? Of course the weakness in so many Catholics, including clergy, is that of fawning to the world, the flesh and the devil – as from time immemorial.

That is not to forget that there are many Protestants who strive to do God’s Will as they see it.
False. **"Thus the Pope never apologises for the Church which is ‘held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy’. " ** [Vatican II, *Lumen Gentium

, art 39]. 'Apology for the sins of Catholics, never for “the Church”.’ (Post #99)

Further, it is Christ’s Church, established by God the Son, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity who created the world – and commanded “You therefore are to be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Mt 5:48). That is what we strive for.

Thanks, Abu; you bring up good points here, such as the world getting approval for contraception, divorce, etc. If the Protestant reformation had never happened, would these things exist? Maybe they would, but the Church has rightly been against these things, and her influence has been greatly reduced due to the reformation.

You’re right, too, in that there are many Protestants who strive to do God’s will as they see it. And the quote you provided about being perfect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect is a good reminder that we are supposed to grow in holiness, and not be stuck in our sins, even as we have sympathy for those who don’t see it this way. It all goes back to Holy Eucharist, IMO. If we really and truly understand Who it is that we receive in Holy Eucharist, we will not want to offend Him by receiving when not in a state of grace. That priests so seldom speak of sin from the pulpit shows that there’s a problem. There should be a balance between God’s Justice, and His great Mercy.

 

[glendab]

Hello Spina.

Hi rcwitness: I could not agree with you more. There is no perfect Church and if there was it would no longer be perfect since everyone is a sinner and can be tempted and fall into sin the minute they enter the Church.

Ahhh…but there IS a perfect Church - the one in Heaven. That is were we will all be hopefully. See ya there!

Glenda

 

[Abu]

spina1953 #130
I never said that the Church was not Holy

Since in #128 you wrote:

There is no perfect Church since as soon as a sinner enters a Church it is no longer perfect.

You have denigrated Vatican II and the web translation which confirms the perfection of the Church as it reads:
'39. The Church, whose mystery is being set forth by this Sacred Synod, is believed to be indefectibly holy. Indeed Christ, the Son of God, who with the Father and the Spirit is praised as “uniquely holy,” (1*) loved the Church as His bride, delivering Himself up for her. He did this that He might sanctify her.(214) He united her to Himself as His own body and brought it to perfection by the gift of the Holy Spirit for God’s glory.’ Lumen Gentium art 39, Vatican II].

Thus is the Church perfect as defined by Vatican II against your assertion. That should be clear and is indisputable

 

[spina1953]

Hello Spina.

Ahhh…but there IS a perfect Church - the one in Heaven. That is were we will all be hopefully. See ya there!

Glenda

Hi Genda: you are correct the Church in heaven is prefect. and I hope all will be able with God’s will to enter into it and be with God in the blessed Trinity.

 

[spina1953]

Since in #128 you wrote:
You have denigrated Vatican II and the web translation which confirms the perfection of the Church as it reads:
'39. The Church, whose mystery is being set forth by this Sacred Synod, is believed to be indefectibly holy. Indeed Christ, the Son of God, who with the Father and the Spirit is praised as “uniquely holy,” (1*) loved the Church as His bride, delivering Himself up for her. He did this that He might sanctify her.(214) He united her to Himself as His own body and brought it to perfection by the gift of the Holy Spirit for God’s glory.’ Lumen Gentium art 39, Vatican II].

Thus is the Church perfect as defined by Vatican II against your assertion. That should be clear and is indisputable

I can see that you have totally misunderstood what I was saying. The church is made up of people and people are sinners. You are speaking of something totally different from what I am saying. and I have not denigrated Vatican II or the Catholic Church. As a matter of fact I have heard priests as well as bishops say what I have said and I will rely on them before someone else I do not know.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I can see that you have totally misunderstood what I was saying. The church is made up of people and people are sinners. You are speaking of something totally different from what I am saying. and I have not denigrated Vatican II or the Catholic Church. As a matter of fact I have heard priests as well as bishops say what I have said and I will rely on them before someone else I do not know.

Ah, church and ‘Church’.

This is one of the reasons I gag a little every time I hear somebody say, “We are Church” or “called to be Church”. . .because it so confuses the issue.

The Catholic Church is holy and without error. The people inside the Church are NOT without error, and not always holy although they should try to be.

So we are a Perfect Church (Catholic) made of imperfect people.

Yes, it’s confusing and paradoxical (as it should be for a Church in which in order to live forever, you have to die). . .but it’s true.

We DO have one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, spotless and pure, and it is NOT ‘just’ somewhere out in the misty cosmos of heaven, as if only when we are ‘pure spirit’ and have left our nasty old bodies behind we will --finally- become perfect. It is also right here on earth.

The Popes can (and should) apologize for the individuals within the Church (and call it “the Church”) who have erred through the ages, but they cannot–and do not- apologize and say that the Church, which holds and teaches the Catholic faith given to us by God Himself and taught by the apostles–is in error, for it is not.

 

[spina1953]

Ah, church and ‘Church’.

This is one of the reasons I gag a little every time I hear somebody say, “We are Church” or “called to be Church”. . .because it so confuses the issue.

The Catholic Church is holy and without error. The people inside the Church are NOT without error, and not always holy although they should try to be.

So we are a Perfect Church (Catholic) made of imperfect people.

Yes, it’s confusing and paradoxical (as it should be for a Church in which in order to live forever, you have to die). . .but it’s true.

We DO have one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, spotless and pure, and it is NOT ‘just’ somewhere out in the misty cosmos of heaven, as if only when we are ‘pure spirit’ and have left our nasty old bodies behind we will --finally- become perfect. It is also right here on earth.

The Popes can (and should) apologize for the individuals within the Church (and call it “the Church”) who have erred through the ages, but they cannot–and do not- apologize and say that the Church, which holds and teaches the Catholic faith given to us by God Himself and taught by the apostles–is in error, for it is not.

Hi Tanum ergo: I see you understand what I was trying to say. The Catholic Church is never in error but those sometimes within it and us laity who are not always as perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. God always calls us and what the Catholic Church teaches is without error and is Holy and one and Apostolic but those inside as well as the laity do not always practice the faith that has been given, because we as humans are sinners and temptation abounds everywhere and our fallen nature is weak without the help of God. God calls but sometimes we do not listen, sometimes we do not hear the Word of God spoken through the Catholic Church.

 

[glendab]

Ummm…hello folks, but this thread is getting too far off the topic of the OP’s question. It is about your ideas of why the Protestant reformation happened and what that means to you personally, not about what is Church or not church, etc.

Glenda

 

[rcwitness]

Ummm…hello folks, but this thread is getting too far off the topic of the OP’s question. It is about your ideas of why the Protestant reformation happened and what that means to you personally, not about what is Church or not church, etc.

Glenda

It’s relative

 

[spina1953]

Ummm…hello folks, but this thread is getting too far off the topic of the OP’s question. It is about your ideas of why the Protestant reformation happened and what that means to you personally, not about what is Church or not church, etc.

Glenda

Hi Glendab: You are right and I will confine my thoughts to what the OP asked Thanks