Why did the RCC change the Bible?

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NotWorthy said:
Except that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Church into All Truth.

Except that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Church into All Truth.
Except that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Church into All Truth.If Jesus were talking of winds, then you’d be spot on! But He’s not.
Prevail means to be or prove superior in strength, power, or influence in the context of the sentence.
Except that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Church into All Truth. 😉
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Without being facetious, there seems to be a needle stuck in the groove.
I actually accept the statement which is so oft repeated, but assert that though guidence is given, enforcement is not made.
That would deny free will.
If the HS guaranteed that the church could never err, then the College of Cardinals and the Pope could be replaced by a bunch of chimpanzees, and decision make be relegated to the throw of a die.
The HS would then guarantee that the correct number came up every throw.
This of course isarrant nonsence, and is equivalent to reading tea leaves and casting runes.
The College of Cardinals are needed to wisely determine when an incorrect judgement is about to be made, and to reduce as far as is humanly possible, the probability that the incorrect judgement will happen.
The very presence of the College of Cardinals is evidence the the Church accepts that error is possible, and effort is needed to prevent it.
 
Voco_proTatiano said:
Without being facetious, there seems to be a needle stuck in the groove.
I actually accept the statement which is so oft repeated, but assert that though guidence is given, enforcement is not made.
That would deny free will.
If the HS guaranteed that the church could never err, then the College of Cardinals and the Pope could be replaced by a bunch of chimpanzees, and decision make be relegated to the throw of a die.
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Oh, so you’ve seen a meeting of the college of Cardinals… 😉
The HS would then guarantee that the correct number came up every throw.
This of course isarrant nonsence, and is equivalent to reading tea leaves and casting runes.
The College of Cardinals are needed to wisely determine when an incorrect judgement is about to be made, and to reduce as far as is humanly possible, the probability that the incorrect judgement will happen.
The very presence of the College of Cardinals is evidence the the Church accepts that error is possible, and effort is needed to prevent it.
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And then when you saw the correct teachings come out of tea leaves, then you’d see signs and believe because you saw the signs. That is a Thomas-like faith. The Church tends not to work that way.
 
Voco_proTatiano said:
Our Lord promised to guide the Church.
He did not promise to force the Church to follow his guidance.
Free will still exists, hence error is still possible.
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Error for individuals, certainly, but not for the Church, since She is His spotless bride. To the extent that men err, they separate themselves from His Perfect Truth, revealed to His Apostles.

If the Church failed to follow His guidance, then the Gates of Hell have prevailed.
 
Voco_proTatiano said:
A loving father guides his children, and prays that they follow his guidance.
He shows them the cost of not following his guidance, and hopes that they will have the wisdom to learn.
When they rebel he weeps, but he does not bind them into slavery.
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Perhaps not, but they may freely choose to be enslaved by His Love:

22 For he who was called in the Lord as a slave is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a slave of Christ.1 Cor 7:22

19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, that I might win the more. 1 Cor 9:19

18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. Rom 6:18-19

For the bondslave of the Lord, any and all is done unto the Lord:

22 Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in singleness of heart, fearing the Lord. 23 Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ.Col 3:21-24

ARe you saying that God cannot lead a person of such attitude? 🤷
 
Voco_proTatiano said:
Sorry, I thought that covered it.
However should it be a little to deep for you, then I’ll try to keep it simple.[sign]Do you suppose God changed from the Old Testament times to the New Testament times? Why, by any imagination, would God permit His Church to teach doctrinal error when He never did before? Why would He want His followers to go about believing and teaching, willy-nilly, whatever they deemed appropriate? Or teaching their own personal interpretations of Scripture?[/sign]
No, the doctrine was not changed, but G_d allowed the scribes, pharisees and elders to interpret the scriptures in a way which can only be described as perverted.
The same still hold true.
It is the teacher who define what is taught.
We hope the teachers will teach according to the doctrine of the Church, and we might punish those who do not, but there are no guarantees.[sign]Why did Jesus promise to guide His Church into “all truth” (he did not simply promise to guide her - He promised to guide her into all truth)? Why did He tell His Church leaders that anything they bound on earth would be bound in heaven? Why did He promise to be with her until the end of time?[/sign]
He did not say how long it would take, some believe it might take until the end of days.
Neither did he promise that he would bind his followers to follow his guidance, only that he would deny those who denied him, or his teaching.[sign] When the Old Testament prophets sinned, did the words of God issued through them cease to be inerrant?
[/sign]
Were they ever inerrant.
What the prophets heard from the mouth of G_d was inerrant, but how they reported, or interpreted it was the work of man, and fallible.[sign] Why do you suppose our Lord commanded his disciples to do what the pharisees told them (Matt 23:2-3)for the fact that they occupy Moses’ seat (cathedra)? Why did He ratify their decisions?
[/sign]
When the pharisees sit on the seat of Moses, they read from the Torah.
It is the Torah that is inerrant.
The pharisees read the Torah from the seat, they do not interpret it.
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What you are saying is that God is weak, He cannot watch over His word to perform it. That He is unable to bring forth pure revelation through an errant vessel. You are saying that God’s Word did not go forth and accomplish the purpose for which it was sent. :eek:
 
guanophore said:
What you are saying is that God is weak, He cannot watch over His word to perform it. That He is unable to bring forth pure revelation through an errant vessel. You are saying that God’s Word did not go forth and accomplish the purpose for which it was sent. :eek:
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Absolutely NOT.
G_d has clearly chosen to have a very light touch on this Universe.
That is the essence of FREE WILL.
G_d could clearly have taken strong control, and made the whole of time deterministic, but that would have been as pointless as opening a book at the last page.
That G_d, having the power to take the latter option, has taken the former is a sign not only of the great strength of G_d, but also of the trust put in us by G_d.
This is the action of a LOVING G_d.
The converse is that of a TYRANT.
A slave does not love his master, but a child loves his father.
The greater the gift, the greater the love.
 
Voco_proTatiano said:
The College of Cardinals are needed to wisely determine when an incorrect judgement is about to be made, and to reduce as far as is humanly possible, the probability that the incorrect judgement will happen.
The very presence of the College of Cardinals is evidence the the Church accepts that error is possible, and effort is needed to prevent it.
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Then you assert that God made a promise that He did not intend to keep?
 
guanophore said:
Error for individuals, certainly, but not for the Church, since She is His spotless bride. To the extent that men err, they separate themselves from His Perfect Truth, revealed to His Apostles.

If the Church failed to follow His guidance, then the Gates of Hell have prevailed.
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I don’t get most of this, but it seems silly. I mean, our pastor pointed out that all seven of the churches in the book of Revelation are dead. So, the church visible has already fallen at least seven times.
 
TerryN said:
I don’t get most of this, but it seems silly. I mean, our pastor pointed out that all seven of the churches in the book of Revelation are dead. So, the church visible has already fallen at least seven times.
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Did your pastor also point out that he doesn’t speak koine Greek or Latin anymore??

Gee, let’s forget the whole thing. So much has changed in the world.

Those early churches are now in moslem lands.

Maybe we should all go out and buy prayer rugs:rolleyes:

Robert
 
Rbt_Southwell said:
Did your pastor also point out that he doesn’t speak koine Greek or Latin anymore??

Gee, let’s forget the whole thing. So much has changed in the world.

Those early churches are now in moslem lands.

Maybe we should all go out and buy prayer rugs:rolleyes:

Robert
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My pastor does speak Greek, but I’m not sure what that has to do with churches falling in any event. :rolleyes:
 
Steadfast said:
The idea that an unquestioned expert in the field should have to produce something which no longer exists in order to substantiate his claim is, well, novel.
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Steadfast;

With all charity, I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out what the HECK you were trying to say with this statement. And I can find is ‘hooey.’

So, ANY “unquestioned expert” in ANY field is allowed to make any WILD HAIR claim and AS LONG AS that ‘evidence’ “no longer exists”, then he or she is ABSOLVED from substantiating said claim.:banghead:

WOW:whacky:

I’m impressed.

Robert
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Voco_proTatiano said:
Yes, we as adults treat our children differently from how we treat our partners.
We subject our children to discipline, using main force where necessary.
Our partners, we allow their free will, even allowing them to desert us, as we love them too much to force them to go against their will.
Yes, G_d guides the Church, but does not compel the Church to follow the Divine Guidance.
For G_d knows that all will come out right in the end on the Last Day.
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It sounds to me like you are not making the distinction between individual members of the church, and the pure, holy, Body of Christ.

“… Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.” Eph 5:25-27

To deny this is to the same as saying that Jesus did not give Himself up for the church, that he did not cleanse her by washing of water adn word, that he is not not really the head of the Body. 🤷
Voco_proTatiano said:
No, I do not ask permission to reject.
I only ask that it is not demanded of me that I assert as true, that of which I am not convinced.
I accept that these things, in the most part might be true.
There are some things which I find contrary to science. These things I cannot accept, and will explain why.
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I guess I am confused about what you are being asked to assert as true. Can you not confess the Apostles creed? So far as I know, this is what is asked of those received into the Church.
 
TerryN said:
I don’t get most of this, but it seems silly. I mean, our pastor pointed out that all seven of the churches in the book of Revelation are dead. So, the church visible has already fallen at least seven times.
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That’s because the churches fell, but not The Church. The Kingdom of Heaven, the Church here on earth, still is alive and well. Individual churches may fall, but not The Church, the Bride of Christ.
 
guanophore said:
It sounds to me like you are not making the distinction between individual members of the church, and the pure, holy, Body of Christ.

“… Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.” Eph 5:25-27
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Hi Guanophore,
I do not make a distinction in type between the members of the Church, and the body of the Church. One is made up of the other. The whole may be more than the sum of its parts, but is not of a different essence.
If sufficient of its parts fail, the whole will fail.
The multiplicity of self supporting parts has the effect of reducing to near zero, the effect of individual failures, but does not eliminate them.
To deny this is to the same as saying that Jesus did not give Himself up for the church, that he did not cleanse her by washing of water adn word, that he is not not really the head of the Body. 🤷
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I guess I am confused about what you are being asked to assert as true. Can you not confess the Apostles creed? So far as I know, this is what is asked of those received into the Church.
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Actually, in deepest conscience, yes, I am troubled by the Apostle’s crede.
Was not King David also a Son of G_d
Psalm 2 Verse 7.
Or was he a liar?
 
quote Notworthy #339 Except that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Church into All Truth.If Jesus were talking of winds, then you’d be spot on! But He’s not.
:confused: please read John 3 v7 to v10 and how are we to reconcile this true saying of Chist to your assertion?

In Spirit & Truth …add1967
 
add1967 said:
Except that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Church into All Truth.If Jesus were talking of winds, then you’d be spot on! But He’s not.
:confused: please read John 3 v7 to v10 and how are we to reconcile this true saying of Chist to your assertion?

In Spirit & Truth …
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Sorry, What is the relevance of Nicodemus to this point?
Have you got your reference correct?
 
add1967 said:
the relevance of what Christs words about spirit and wind are,in relation to notworthys post#339
In Spirit & Truth…add1967
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OK, the relevance is sketchy. The Spirit goes where It Wills (and touches the souls of different people). But all the while, the Spirit guides the Church as Jesus promised.

Is this thought a problem? The Spirit tries to blow in in all of us (that is God’s Will that all be saved), but not everyone accepts the Gifts of the Holy Spirit (yes, Voco, I certainly do believe in Free Will).

But God prevents any member of the Church to authoritatively teach someone that is false. Not the priest on the pulpit (and the Catholic clergy have sadly proved time and time again), but the Pope or Magisterium when they are making an infallible teaching.
 
NotWorthy said:
OK, the relevance is sketchy. The Spirit goes where It Wills (and touches the souls of different people). But all the while, the Spirit guides the Church as Jesus promised.

Is this thought a problem? The Spirit tries to blow in in all of us (that is God’s Will that all be saved), but not everyone accepts the Gifts of the Holy Spirit (yes, Voco, I certainly do believe in Free Will).

But God prevents any member of the Church to authoritatively teach someone that is false. Not the priest on the pulpit (and the Catholic clergy have sadly proved time and time again), but the Pope or Magisterium when they are making an infallible teaching.
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Dear Friends,
Ok, now I follow this, but be aware of two points here.
1/ The Hebrew word, and its Aramaic derivitives for the Holy Spirit can be, and is also translated as ‘Mighty Wind’, and the context given here is of a wind blowing. Thus my assertion that the wind may blow any way but usually from the west is valid.
2/ G_d does not prevent anything.
G_d teaches us how to see the difference between right and wrong, and guides us on how to set up institutions and mechanisms which are ‘fault tolerant’, so that individual failures are unlikely to cause total failures.

G_d does not force the outcome.
We are given free-will, and that means that any institution or mechanism we set up has that free-will, though we can reduce the fault sensitivity of those institutions and mechanisms.
We are autonomous and responsible human beings, responsible to each-other, and to G_d for our actions and inactions.
We are not chess pieces fooled about by Zeus and his like for amusement.
 
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