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paul_barlow
Guest
please explain how christ is our saviour if he did not remove origial sin
why did the saviour come if not to take away the sins of the world
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F
Fiat_Lux
Guest
He did come to take away the sins of the world. We sing and proclaim it every week at Mass: “Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world”.
We don’t inherit Adam’s transgression or his guilt; we inherit its effect. Think of it as a moral deformity that affects every human being born. We would all have been born with sanctifying grace, but Adam’s transgression left a stain on humankind which we all inherit.
Because of Christ, all we need is to be baptized in the name of the trinity and the stain of original sin is gone. All we need is to receive the sacrament of reconcilation and our fault/guilt for the personal sins we commit is gone (though the stain remains on our souls).
What exactly is the LDS point of view on the origin of man’s sinful nature? Why are we all sinners?
We don’t inherit Adam’s transgression or his guilt; we inherit its effect. Think of it as a moral deformity that affects every human being born. We would all have been born with sanctifying grace, but Adam’s transgression left a stain on humankind which we all inherit.
Because of Christ, all we need is to be baptized in the name of the trinity and the stain of original sin is gone. All we need is to receive the sacrament of reconcilation and our fault/guilt for the personal sins we commit is gone (though the stain remains on our souls).
What exactly is the LDS point of view on the origin of man’s sinful nature? Why are we all sinners?
S
silverwings_88
Guest
Hmmm… check out Alma 11:37:
I know it doesn’t answer the question, but hey, I love quoting scripture!
C
catholic-rcia
Guest
Here is the place where you would need to spend some time on that question. By the way it is a very good question.
scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1263
When we as Catholic Apostolic Christians are baptized we are baptised into the death and resurection of our Lord who saves us.
We know we have a cancer, we go to Him for healing of it while here on earth, knowing full well that He will take it away. Has taken it away by way of the cross, we just forget.
Here is a treasure that I found many years ago, It may help to answer your question.
Our Lords Interest
….Father Raoul Plus, S.J. (1882-1958)
Adopted sons and daughters
"This is the campaign that is most urgently needed: to help each and every one to Realize fully, perhaps for the first time, the divine dignity that Baptism confers by engrafting us upon Christ Himself "
Our Lord did not come for the sake of those who are well, but for those who are in need. The soul that is lost interest Him far more than the ninety-nine that are just; the venturesome lamb that has fallen into the pit, far more that the flock that has returned dutifully home; the coin that has rolled behind the furniture, far more than the fortune of the cash-box.
His interest is in the prodigals: Mary Magdalene, the women taken in adultery, Zacchaeus the publican, Simon the Pharisee, Barabbas, and His companions on the cross. The preferences of all Christians should be of the same kind. But what integrity this demands, what moral beauty, what sanctity! Some, perhaps, may be tempted to escape the corrosive or weakening effect of such surroundings by avoiding to much contact with the masses, by seeking only the company of their friends, of those who think like them and to whom they feel more readily attracted. It is so much more pleasant to consort with those who are like you, and with whom you have ideals and interest in common.
Such a method is disastrous. If the leaven is to act upon the mass, it must be mingled with it. If it is separate from the mass, it forgets its proper task. It is a leading axiom in Catholic action not to remove good elements from the surroundings in which they exist, but rather to sanctify them so that they may serve to elevate and improve their fellows. In order to act effectively upon one’s surroundings, one must live in those surroundings; and, given the necessary virtue and power of action, the closer the contact, the greater the influence will be.
It is not literally true that is has been said of us: “You are gods,” and that we are to become “sons of God”? Let us give to these expressions their full Christian meaning. First and foremost, the baptized must learn to appreciate the incomparable privileges they have received by the sacrament which, in making them Christians, has brought the Blessed Trinity to dwell in their souls, and given them power to live the divine life, if only they will, and so long as they will. Let us lift up our heads and bear proudly the proud dignity of our Baptism.
How few of the baptized appreciate the essence of all revelations: that God dwells in the man who is in the state of grace? This is the campaign that is most urgently needed: to help each and every one to Realize fully, perhaps for the first time, the divine dignity that Baptism confers by engrafting us upon Christ Himself making us a living member of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, communicating to us the very life of the Blessed Trinity, making us partners in the royal priesthood of Christ and His Church, uniting us in a common kinship with all our baptized brethren by this spiritual solidarity, which is the Communion of Saints, consecrating us as living chalices, as living temples to the personal and social worship of the true God.
scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1263
When we as Catholic Apostolic Christians are baptized we are baptised into the death and resurection of our Lord who saves us.
We know we have a cancer, we go to Him for healing of it while here on earth, knowing full well that He will take it away. Has taken it away by way of the cross, we just forget.
Here is a treasure that I found many years ago, It may help to answer your question.
Our Lords Interest
….Father Raoul Plus, S.J. (1882-1958)
Adopted sons and daughters
"This is the campaign that is most urgently needed: to help each and every one to Realize fully, perhaps for the first time, the divine dignity that Baptism confers by engrafting us upon Christ Himself "
Our Lord did not come for the sake of those who are well, but for those who are in need. The soul that is lost interest Him far more than the ninety-nine that are just; the venturesome lamb that has fallen into the pit, far more that the flock that has returned dutifully home; the coin that has rolled behind the furniture, far more than the fortune of the cash-box.
His interest is in the prodigals: Mary Magdalene, the women taken in adultery, Zacchaeus the publican, Simon the Pharisee, Barabbas, and His companions on the cross. The preferences of all Christians should be of the same kind. But what integrity this demands, what moral beauty, what sanctity! Some, perhaps, may be tempted to escape the corrosive or weakening effect of such surroundings by avoiding to much contact with the masses, by seeking only the company of their friends, of those who think like them and to whom they feel more readily attracted. It is so much more pleasant to consort with those who are like you, and with whom you have ideals and interest in common.
Such a method is disastrous. If the leaven is to act upon the mass, it must be mingled with it. If it is separate from the mass, it forgets its proper task. It is a leading axiom in Catholic action not to remove good elements from the surroundings in which they exist, but rather to sanctify them so that they may serve to elevate and improve their fellows. In order to act effectively upon one’s surroundings, one must live in those surroundings; and, given the necessary virtue and power of action, the closer the contact, the greater the influence will be.
It is not literally true that is has been said of us: “You are gods,” and that we are to become “sons of God”? Let us give to these expressions their full Christian meaning. First and foremost, the baptized must learn to appreciate the incomparable privileges they have received by the sacrament which, in making them Christians, has brought the Blessed Trinity to dwell in their souls, and given them power to live the divine life, if only they will, and so long as they will. Let us lift up our heads and bear proudly the proud dignity of our Baptism.
How few of the baptized appreciate the essence of all revelations: that God dwells in the man who is in the state of grace? This is the campaign that is most urgently needed: to help each and every one to Realize fully, perhaps for the first time, the divine dignity that Baptism confers by engrafting us upon Christ Himself making us a living member of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, communicating to us the very life of the Blessed Trinity, making us partners in the royal priesthood of Christ and His Church, uniting us in a common kinship with all our baptized brethren by this spiritual solidarity, which is the Communion of Saints, consecrating us as living chalices, as living temples to the personal and social worship of the true God.
M
MEP
Guest
I think a better question is how can the savior take away the sins of the world if the father and the son are not consubstantial? If it wasn’t God who died on the cross, how is the sacrifice any more meaningful than if any other spirit child of God died for our sins?
The mormon concept of the Godhead robs Christ of the very power required of him as far as I can tell, whereas the Catholic trinity allows both a clear distinction between the three persons of God while still maintaining a single being called “God” which is absolutely essential to the whole idea of salvation. God had to make himself one of us (not the other way around as eternal progression implies) in order for his sacrifice on the cross to have any effect. There is no amount of metaphysical hoop jumping that can reconcile the Mormon godhead with the Mormon church’s (and every other Christian church’s) teachings on why Christ’s sacrifice was meangingful or even necessary in the first place.
The mormon concept of the Godhead robs Christ of the very power required of him as far as I can tell, whereas the Catholic trinity allows both a clear distinction between the three persons of God while still maintaining a single being called “God” which is absolutely essential to the whole idea of salvation. God had to make himself one of us (not the other way around as eternal progression implies) in order for his sacrifice on the cross to have any effect. There is no amount of metaphysical hoop jumping that can reconcile the Mormon godhead with the Mormon church’s (and every other Christian church’s) teachings on why Christ’s sacrifice was meangingful or even necessary in the first place.
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paul_barlow
Guest
our cocept of the god head is more in keeping with scripture than the niecene creed. if God, Jesus and the holy ghost are one without body form or passions then i must have read a diffrent version of the scriptures than you i find your doctrine incorrect. and maybe it could just be that our churchs teachings are correct.
T
Tmaque
Guest
MEP, what you have said here is so true. I didn’t quite get the reality of Christ’s sacrifice until I became Catholic for the very reasons you mention.
T
Tmaque
Guest
paul barlow:
1.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
He was in the beginning with God.
3
3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be
4
through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race;
5
4 the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6
5 A man named John was sent from God.
7
He came for testimony, 6 to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him.
8
He was not the light, but came to testify to the light.
9
The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.
10
He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, but the world did not know him.
11
He came to what was his own, but his own people 7 did not accept him.
12
But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name,
13
8 who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God.
14
And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.
Mormon doctrine is in keeping with the Gospel of John? Please explain how the LDS concept of the Godhead fits in with these passages.
1.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
He was in the beginning with God.
3
3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be
4
through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race;
5
4 the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6
5 A man named John was sent from God.
7
He came for testimony, 6 to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him.
8
He was not the light, but came to testify to the light.
9
The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.
10
He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, but the world did not know him.
11
He came to what was his own, but his own people 7 did not accept him.
12
But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name,
13
8 who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God.
14
And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.
C
catholic-rcia
Guest
“I think a better question is how can the savior take away the sins of the world if the father and the son are not consubstantial? If it wasn’t God who died on the cross, how is the sacrifice any more meaningful than if any other spirit child of God died for our sins?” ….Mep
This is great, as we come to realize that it was our Creator, God the Eternal Son that died for His creation it really hits Home. What a God!
**
*And as Todd has pointed out: *
“God had to make himself one of us”
This is something we speak about often her in Northern Utah, how God actually came down to our level, took on a lesser form to save us. I really believe that it is in proclaiming His one death through the Mass, receiving the Eucharist that we come to understand these truths.
“For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come”
1 Co 11:26
Paul:
“our cocept of the godhead is more in keeping with scripture than the niecene creed”
In all humility and sincerity Paul, for one who has entered into the Apostolic Church 6 short years ago and often thinks about St Augustine as he said “to late have I come to know thee” you could not be more wrong with your statement above, but I was as well for way to many years so I can not talk in a boastful manner and would not do that. The Nicene Creed only confirms what the Church that Christ established has always held dear to it. Take a look at the Creed below and do look up the Scriptures. Do you know when the Apostles Creed was first spoken? The Apostles Creed pre-dated the Nicene Creed. I will look this date up, you can as well.
God Bless
We Believe…
in one God, (Ex 20:2-3, Is 45:5, 1 Cor 8:4) the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, (Gen 14:19, Ex 20:2-3) of all that is seen and unseen. (Col 1:16)
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, (Luke 1:35) begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God. Begotten not made, one in Being with the Father. (Heb 1:3) Through Him all things were made. (John 1:2-3, Col 1:15-17))
For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven: (John 3:13) by the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, (Matt 1:18) and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;(very Historical) (John 19:16) he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; (1Cor 15:3-4) he ascended into heaven (Luke 24:51) and is seated at the right hand of the Father. (Col 3:1) He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, (2 Tim 4:1) and his Kingdom will have no end. (Luke 1:33)
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, (Acts 2:17) who proceeds from the Father and the Son. (John 14:16) With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. (1 Peter 1:10-11)
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. (Rom 12:5) We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.(Acts 2:38) We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the life of the world to come. (Rom 6:5) Amen
This is great, as we come to realize that it was our Creator, God the Eternal Son that died for His creation it really hits Home. What a God!
**
*And as Todd has pointed out: *
“God had to make himself one of us”
This is something we speak about often her in Northern Utah, how God actually came down to our level, took on a lesser form to save us. I really believe that it is in proclaiming His one death through the Mass, receiving the Eucharist that we come to understand these truths.
“For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come”
1 Co 11:26
Paul:
“our cocept of the godhead is more in keeping with scripture than the niecene creed”
In all humility and sincerity Paul, for one who has entered into the Apostolic Church 6 short years ago and often thinks about St Augustine as he said “to late have I come to know thee” you could not be more wrong with your statement above, but I was as well for way to many years so I can not talk in a boastful manner and would not do that. The Nicene Creed only confirms what the Church that Christ established has always held dear to it. Take a look at the Creed below and do look up the Scriptures. Do you know when the Apostles Creed was first spoken? The Apostles Creed pre-dated the Nicene Creed. I will look this date up, you can as well.
God Bless
We Believe…
in one God, (Ex 20:2-3, Is 45:5, 1 Cor 8:4) the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, (Gen 14:19, Ex 20:2-3) of all that is seen and unseen. (Col 1:16)
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, (Luke 1:35) begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God. Begotten not made, one in Being with the Father. (Heb 1:3) Through Him all things were made. (John 1:2-3, Col 1:15-17))
For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven: (John 3:13) by the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, (Matt 1:18) and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;(very Historical) (John 19:16) he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; (1Cor 15:3-4) he ascended into heaven (Luke 24:51) and is seated at the right hand of the Father. (Col 3:1) He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, (2 Tim 4:1) and his Kingdom will have no end. (Luke 1:33)
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, (Acts 2:17) who proceeds from the Father and the Son. (John 14:16) With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. (1 Peter 1:10-11)
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. (Rom 12:5) We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.(Acts 2:38) We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the life of the world to come. (Rom 6:5) Amen
C
catholic-rcia
Guest
Paul
*I think it would help if you explained the LDS Godhead in as much detail as you can provide. *
**
God Bless
catholic-rcia
*I think it would help if you explained the LDS Godhead in as much detail as you can provide. *
**
God Bless
catholic-rcia
M
majick275
Guest
paul barlow:
Alma 11: 44
“…Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God…”
Later on as JS ideas on theology changed and he went from a Father who was a spirit being (Bible) to the Father has a body and there is no Trinity in the D&C. Thus the term “Godhead” had to be taught to reconcile the two concepts.
Well now that not’s quite accurate. LDS doctrine on the trinity started out right in line with the nicene creed. Read the last line of the testimony of the three witnesses in the BoM. 1 Ne. 13: 41, Alma 11: 35 or this is the best example :
Alma 11: 44
“…Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God…”
Later on as JS ideas on theology changed and he went from a Father who was a spirit being (Bible) to the Father has a body and there is no Trinity in the D&C. Thus the term “Godhead” had to be taught to reconcile the two concepts.
T
Tmaque
Guest
You mean the BOM hasn’t been changed to read “one eternal Godhead” yet? Better write a letter to the LDS church so they can make sure it gets changed in future edits.
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