Why Did The Son of God Became Man?

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Fabius…certainly agree…but I found my anti-Catholic sources at the Deseret bookstore, including the Mormon teachings by J. Smith himself, as stated on my post. Their statements against my church were riveting and powerful. It most likely hit me so hard because I came in very open and positive in learning about Mormonism, only to see it backfire at me and my faith, not having a guarded heart.

And there are those who were very aware and witnessed the anti-priest rituals in the Mormon religion in their type of initiation, vs Catholic Rite of Christian Initiation…people are rushed into being baptized, then afterwards, for charity’s sake and being gentle with them to not shock them, the newly baptize begin to hear the strange beliefs prior to Mormon baptism. No questions, no critical thinking allowed. Just burning in the bosom. I read about someone who witnessed and recorded a Mormon ritual denouncing Catholic priests, but won’t repeat it because I am not sure how pervasive it was…they stopped being so anti Catholic around 1997, but many Mormons consider our church that of the devil. But there are others here and elsewhere who know about them.

It is also my other issue with Italy…they only see Mormonism as a form of polygamy…and not aware mainline Mormonism does not practice it. They are not aware of all the practices and beliefs.

When it comes to documentation…when I read of an experience of one or two or three people…I see it as more a reflection of the particular person leading them. But when it is across the board, then I look at the system. And that is what I have seen, reading about Mormonism on my own since that experience at the bookstore about 2005. I really don’t like coming out like this either…but it has really hit on my own convictions.

Jewish professionals in documentary films see events as particular when they are repeated less than 10 times. But when common experiences are repeated beyond that, then it is documentary material.

I do intend to be fair. And a number of times I have stated here my own personal respect and affection for every day sincere Mormon people living out their beliefs to the best of their ability.

My issue is the changing face of Mormonism, its leadership and control, seeing the issues former Mormons go through when coming into the Catholic church, as well as the mismanagement and lack of reciprocity.

Essentially, the Apostles who witnessed Christ were not given the grace to appoint successors, but the Mormon founders were.

I am really at the point, obviously with my own evident exasperation…to pray more now for common unity --and respect. But I don’t know if the traditional Mormon mindset can really understand our issues.

I also believe there is a very good segment of Mormonism that is seeking to become more standardized, mainline, seeking unity with Christians.

God bless!
 
This is a false understanding of Orthodox belief, since every Byzantine Rite Eastern Catholic believes in essentially everything the Orthodox believe save for the role of the Pope in the Church today.

Also, Blessed Pope John Paul II talks a lot about deification/theosis in Theology of the Body.
I never said that we Catholics do not believe in theosis. In fact I never mentioned it. I was merely clearing up Tony’s misunderstanding of what ahimsa said. I completely accept the real doctrine of theosis as taught in Catholicism. As an ex-Mormon, I also understand fully that theosis is nothing like exaltation.

And now that you mention it, there are a number of significant differences between Orthodox and Catholic doctrine. There are several very interesting threads about it on this forum.

Paul
 
Here are just a few of the ECF quotes on the topic of deification, complied by a Catholic

Justin - 1st Ap. 22 And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue. (ANF 1.170).

Justin - Dial. 124 …thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming “gods”, and of having power to become sons of the Highest. (ANF 1.262).

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 3.6.1 “God stood in the in the congregation of the gods, He judges among the gods.” He [here] refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption; but these are the Church. (ANF 1.419).

Irenaeus - Adv. 4.20.4 Now this is His Word, our Lord Jesus Christ, who in the last times was made a man among men, that He might join the end to the beginning, that is, man to God. (ANF 1.488).

Theophilus - To Autolycus 27 Was man made by nature mortal? Certainly not. Was he, then, immortal? Neither do we affirm this. …He was by nature neither mortal nor immortal. For if He had made him immortal from the beginning, He would have made him God. … keeping the commandment of God, he should receive as a reward from Him immortality, and should become God. (ANF 2.105).

Tertullian - Adv. Hermogenes 5 Well, then, you say, we ourselves possess nothing of God. But indeed we do, and shall continue to do—only it is from Him that we receive it, and not from ourselves. For we shall be even gods, if we shall deserve to be among those of whom He declared, “I have said, Ye are gods,” and “God standeth in the congregation of the gods.” But this comes of His own grace, not from any property in us, because it is He alone who can make gods. (ANF 3.480).

Clement of Alexandria - Exhortation 1 …the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God. (ANF 2.174).

Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 7.10 …they are called by the appellation of gods, being destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Saviour. (ANF 2.539).

Origen - Against Celsus 3.28 …they see that from Him [Christ] there began the union of the divine with the human nature, in order that the human, by communion with the divine, might rise to be divine, not in Jesus alone, but in all those who not only believe, but enter upon the life which Jesus taught, and which elevates to friendship with God and communion with Him every one who lives according to the precepts of Jesus. (ANF 4.475).

Hilary of Poitiers - De Trinitate 10.7 For when God was born to be man the purpose was not that the Godhead should be lost, but that, the Godhead remaining, man should be born to be God. Thus Emmanuel is His name, which is God with us, that God might not be lowered to the level of man, but man raised to that of God. (NPNF, second series, 2.9.183-184)
Tony888 this is called quote mining, which has the distinct mark of being out of context. These are Catholics, speaking of Catholic teaching, which has been explained to you several times. These are not Catholics teaching about your false Mormon ideas.

To begin with, as has already been pointed out, all of these Catholics believed in the Presence of Jesus Christ, Body and Blood, in the Eucharist. Taking these Catholic quotes out of the context of the Eucharist creates a false impression at best. There is nothing honest about this approach, at all. If you are going to believe what Catholics have to say about theosis, then you logically have to believe what they say about the Eucharist. The two cannot be separated for the convenience of what you want to believe.

These are not Catholics who are secretly Mormon, and you just made some grand discovery of Mormons hiding out in Catholic history. Nope. Sorry. What you are doing is called sophistry.
 
I never said that we Catholics do not believe in theosis. In fact I never mentioned it. I was merely clearing up Tony’s misunderstanding of what ahimsa said. I completely accept the real doctrine of theosis as taught in Catholicism. As an ex-Mormon, I also understand fully that theosis is nothing like exaltation.

And now that you mention it, there are a number of significant differences between Orthodox and Catholic doctrine. There are several very interesting threads about it on this forum.

Paul
You said that we share many Orthodox beliefs but they are not Catholic. Are you referring to they as the Orthodox, or the beliefs? But in either case, both the beliefs and the Orthodox are Catholics. But in the interest of semantics, Orthodox call themselves small “c” catholics while Catholics call themselves small “o” orthodox. But ultimately our faith is one and the same because it came from the same source, and for 1000 years we were one Church.

Actually, there are differences in Orthodox and Roman Catholic doctrine. Not much with Eastern Catholics except for the view on the Papacy.
 
Tony, you are coming on here using the most sacred quotes explaining the summit of our faith—the very essence of the Totality of Christ, Living Presence here on earth in the tabernacle…our source of life and renewal…

You are using God Himself in Christ to show the Eucharist–Whom you reject – is on par with Mormonism to become a man made god, …

This what your Mormon leadership is doing to you…they are using you…

while behind our back your church continues to label our faith, our priesthood, our liturgy and transubstantiation–as corrupt, an abomination. And I bet it is still probing to find ways to get Catholic records or elsewhere to get our people members of your religion.

I think of the Mormon ritual cursing the Roman Catholic priests…

Do you know what First Friday’s are? We honor the Sacred Heart of Jesus and endure more self-denial that day in reparation for the blasphemies done against His Sacred Heart, and the indifference to His living presence here on earth.

You are taking our teachings that now after the Resurrection and shown in the Walk of Emmaus…God is now with us, remaining with us forever who do not deny Him…that He is here to make our burden light, to give us new life in Him, and be our companion in day to day life, always the Fountain of Life to draw on each day through Eucharist and prayer to share His love love with others, to speak His will to the world, and to extend His healing presence.

And with the Mormon mindset so many years back, they did not have the education to argue with us. Just reading the link about the Mormons put off by the Vatican because they can’t access our records to get members…shows a true disconnect and an immaturity of faith…
 
One of the teaching questions in the CCC is - WHY DID THE WORD BECOME FLESH?

Five specific reasons are given. I’ve summarized them below for brevity but here is a link to the CCC source

  1. *]For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven
    *]in order to save us by reconciling us with God
    *]so that thus we might know God’s love
    *]to be our model of holiness
    *]to make us "partakers of the divine nature"

    I believe the LDS theology agrees with the Catholics on all five points (maybe we should be called 5 point catholics?)

  1. Who is he in #1?
 
I was thinking last night to write a letter to Cardinal Levada about the misuse of Catechism 460. I will let him know our instructor…of all the Church documents in my training for 5.5 years…this CC460 was the only one we clarified…

Tony, this is our instructor’s notes…He himself studying at the Angelicum…

In reference to the exact and only quote, ‘we might become God’…which is from St. Anthanasius…

The official Catholic answer to your conjecturing is quote: ‘we enter into God, not becoming or replacing Him’.

St. Anthanasius was removed from his episcopacy 4 times for opposing Arianism–Jesus separate from God…Jesus is of the same substance of God…

The only divine action a human being can do in this world is forgive, turning the other cheek. I do not see Mormonism having that forgiveness with its ongoing teachings invalidating our faith. I do not see the Mormons on the road to become gods because of fraudulent teachings, actions, and biases against my church and other peoples.

Mormonism especially wants Catholics to be members among all the Christians.
There was a Mormon on here for some time who was always saying off base things…finally he showed us his link on invalidating ‘Transubstantiation’…he was using us all the time to build his argument to invalidate the living God among us.
 
Tony, you are coming on here using the most sacred quotes explaining the summit of our faith—the very essence of the Totality of Christ, Living Presence here on earth in the tabernacle…our source of life and renewal…

You are using God Himself in Christ to show the Eucharist–Whom you reject – is on par with Mormonism to become a man made god, …

This what your Mormon leadership is doing to you…they are using you…

while behind our back your church continues to label our faith, our priesthood, our liturgy and transubstantiation–as corrupt, an abomination. And I bet it is still probing to find ways to get Catholic records or elsewhere to get our people members of your religion.

I think of the Mormon ritual cursing the Roman Catholic priests…

Do you know what First Friday’s are? We honor the Sacred Heart of Jesus and endure more self-denial that day in reparation for the blasphemies done against His Sacred Heart, and the indifference to His living presence here on earth.

You are taking our teachings that now after the Resurrection and shown in the Walk of Emmaus…God is now with us, remaining with us forever who do not deny Him…that He is here to make our burden light, to give us new life in Him, and be our companion in day to day life, always the Fountain of Life to draw on each day through Eucharist and prayer to share His love love with others, to speak His will to the world, and to extend His healing presence.

And with the Mormon mindset so many years back, they did not have the education to argue with us. Just reading the link about the Mormons put off by the Vatican because they can’t access our records to get members…shows a true disconnect and an immaturity of faith…
Kathy, I have seen this very tactic used before here at CAF by the Mormon members. They would cite the CCC and the Saints, ECF, and Doctors of the Church (cherry picked quotes) to try and shake the faith of those who may not be so familiar as to whom the Mormons are.
 
I would say that the highest “exultation” a human being can achieve after death is sainthood. This means that that human, while alive, live a life very much in the path of Jesus’s teachings and became very holy and sanctified as a result.

However, none of our most blessed saints in heaven are on a par with the blessed Trinity. Even Mary, the mother of God, is not a god!
 
Wm…

They are using the most sacred texts defining the Living God among us and using to be on par with becoming a man made god…this is on the point of touching on the sensitivity of the sacred held by believers…some could say they are approaching doctrinal sacrilege…
 
Wm…

They are using the most sacred texts defining the Living God among us and using to be on par with becoming a man made god…this is on the point of touching on the sensitivity of the sacred held by believers…some could say they are approaching doctrinal sacrilege…
Sad as it may be, they use them to try and justify their existence. Their religion, being born of a something other than Christ Himself but rather something less than desirable, needs to employ these tactics to draw attention away from what the truth is. This is how they prey on the spiritually weak, both of mind and heart. This is also why good folks like you need to keep calling them to task, and pointing out the falsehoods and half truths.
 
Wm…

What we are witnessing is growing sophistication within Mormonism…they call it sophistry…again, nothing solid of their own to come forward with, so they use ours and skew it…

I cannot say what was done here on this thread was sacrilegious…but it affects my sense of the sacred…as well as the past thread by another Mormon who finally showed us what he was doing with his membership here…gleaning our info to then turn around and deny God becoming Man in Christ to become Man for us, to become our life source through ordinary bread and wine…he showed us his Mormon link on denying and invalidating the Catholic teaching of transubstantiation.

Ironic.
 
God became man because He loves us, that much. For the Omnipotent, Omniscient, All Powerful God, that has absolutely no need for anything at all, from any one or any thing, to give up His Supreme position in Heaven, and humble Himself to become a lowly man like us, knowing full well that the men that He loved so much would reject and mercilessly kill Him by crucifixion, is the most wonderful sign of His perfect love, that we could ever hope to have. He didn’t *need *to do it. He could have found another way to reconcile with us, but He didn’t. He wanted us to know just how much He truly loves us. All He asks in return is our own puny, and imperfect, fidelity and love, so we can enjoy the eternal bliss of sharing our mutual love with Him, in Heaven, forever. :heaven:
 
Telstar…beautiful sentiment…

St. Theresa of Avila said God did 90% of the work for us, and we do 10%…or…I take one step toward Christ, but He comes all the rest of the way for me.
 
Telstar…beautiful sentiment…

St. Theresa of Avila said God did 90% of the work for us, and we do 10%…or…I take one step toward Christ, but He comes all the rest of the way for me.
Thank you, Kathleen. Every time I think about Jesus (our great and wonderful God!), coming down from Heaven to go through all that He endured for love of us, I am so humbled and so thankful that He offered little ol’, pitiful me, a share in His Infinite Love, through my (less than stellar) membership in His Holy Church. I wish there was some way to express how truly special our calling to His True Church is. We owe Him all of our love, and should certainly thank Him, every single day, for doing what He did for us. But, He will never force any of us to love Him, or to follow Him. He humbly knocks on the door of our heart, and asks us to let Him come in. Just the thought of it leaves me absolutely speechless.
 
Yes, Jesus did not assume but only to come down to be put on the Cross…meek and humble of heart…Who is Love.
 
Tony888, there is also an understanding in Catholic doctrine that is based on Original Sin, which LDS deny. This is also taught by the ECFs, doctors and major theologians of the Catholic Church (and major Protestant denominations).

Without an understanding of Original Sin, the Why of the Word made Incarnate loses its meaning entirely.

There is no way for you to fit the square peg of Mormonism into Catholic theology. It just will not work without creating a syncretic blend of Catholicism and Mormonism that is neither Catholic or Mormon.
 
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