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Not_Sure_1
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Give me a dogmatic statement from it. One dogmatic statement.
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Not_Sure_1
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So the TLM, the mass of the ages, will remain a mass that people have to drive hours for (to get to the same mass their grandparents walked down the street for).
The Mass of the saints must remain in the shadows? and away from the great cathedrals?
Hardly to be found at lands of pilgrimage?
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Not_Sure_1
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as is Altar Girls
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Not_Sure_1
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Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi
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curlycool89
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I’m sorry, but the fact of the matter is that the friend was just (taught) wrong. There was nothing ever dogmatic about who could touch the Eucharist.
It hit them in the gut because they built up their faith on the wrong premises, on the wrong foundations. People went and made the penthouse their foundation and then decried the fact that the next room over had slightly different furnishings. Petty? Yes, I’d call it that.
Like I said above, people are essentially getting mad because Rome allowed the furniture to move a bit. Rome said we could re-adjust the couch a bit and people called it the end of the Church. The positioning of the couch became more important to them then the building itself.
Well, nothing else besides “blunt” seems to work on this particular forum. Not to drag out of the closet the fact that anything “pastoral” is decried as “too Vatican II” on these forums anyways.
And that was the problem: Discipline got elevated to dogma and people couldn’t wrap their head around the difference. I’m sorry, but some of the catechetics from the first half of the 20th century was simply incorrect (like on touching the Eucharist). It happens, we’re only human.Unfortunately, they were not catechized properly, and I have a hard time convincing them of the difference between discipline and doctrine/dogma. Or teaching them about the authority of the Church. Or the role of other major changes that were occurring simultaneously during Vatican II.
People need to get over that and move on and learn, not feel like they were personally betrayed or something. It was regrettable, now let’s move on. Instead people want to hold a personal eternal grudge against the teachers or against the Church.
Look, trust has been broken (in substantial and horrific ways in some cases), but that doesn’t mean you become suspicious of every single little thing like it’s out to destroy the Church. Yes, there are people out there who are trying, but they’re not going to win no matter what they do and no matter what we do because it’s out of our hands. It’s in God’s hands, and no other hands are safer.
This was why I expressed in one thread that I noticed a distinct lack of hope in some quarters of traddom. Everything is crises and despair and “oh woe is us” and “the Church is going to die if we don’t do x, y, and z RIGHT NOW this instance”. Here’s a little secret for you: the world sucked a 1000 years ago, the world sucked 500 years ago, the world sucked 100 and 50 years ago, the world sucks now, and the world will suck in 1000 years. Why? Because we can’t fix the problem of original sin, we never could and we never will. The only fix is in Christ, who offers it freely to everyone who will accept it, and not every is going to accept it, not now and not ever. All we can do is cooperate with God so that He can work through us to try and make the world a better place for us and those around us.
Beyond that, we really can’t do anything but trust in God. Maybe it’ll get better, and maybe it won’t. Maybe these are trials for us (cf. 1 Peter 1:6-7), so why shouldn’t we accept them (cf. Job 2:10)?
And it is. Some people have elevated something like “no meat on Fridays” to a dogma without remembering the reasons why we’re doing it; the doing it (action) became more important than the reason why it was being done.
There was a comment on this forum a while back where someone asked “who ever heard of Catholics eating meat on Fridays?” That’s a comment I would expect to hear from a sociologist commenting on cultural phenomenons, not a comment on faith. People considered it an important part of Catholic culture, but it is not essential for the faith itself.
Not according to the Holy See it’s not.
And no offense, but I trust the Holy See more then anonymous people on the internet.
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pnewton
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What I said was that the council produced two dogmatic constitutions they are linked here.
Dei Verbum
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html
Lumen Gentium
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
Taking the first one in the first paragraph, we read, “Christ, the Word made flesh…”
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pnewton
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I wouldn’t know. I could not find that definition anywhere, though it may be a poor translation issue. I do know that one quote in a preface of another’s book has been used out of context and floated among traditional sites. That is why I have always prefered to go straight to the source of the Holy Father’s own book.
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pnewton
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These two are not of necessity a contradition. Sacred Scripture is eternal, but translation can be updated. The Church has changed over the last 2000 years and has never stagnated.
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pnewton
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If through all your rhetoric you are referring to what is now being called the extraordinary form of the Mass, I think that lights are used in this form. As to where it is offered, I have no say and will attempt no answer. I pray that all who wish it have it available, but details are left to the bishop under whose authority it is offered. It does seem that the Holy Father has no plans to return to the older form of Mass, and doesn’t even consider it a possibility.
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pnewton
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This would fall under something that is a disciplinary issue whose prudence is only a matter of opinion. Some bishops allow this practice. Others do not.
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edwest2
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TrueLight
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All I’m going to say is that prayer changes things.
If the Lord tarries, our descendants will look back 100 years from now and wonder how the Church ever survived its chastisement.
Let’s not give up but ask for everything through prayer and supplication. They may mock us and laugh at us, but in the end, the gates of hell shall not prevail.
We shouldn’t complain when we suffer ridicule from our own brothers in sisters in Christ, for insisting on reverence and Catholic tradition. Christ, who was perfect, suffered. Should we not suffer even more?
Let’s just stay focused and keep doing what we do.
Like the six million dollar man, the Church will come out of this better, stronger, faster.
If the Lord tarries, our descendants will look back 100 years from now and wonder how the Church ever survived its chastisement.
Let’s not give up but ask for everything through prayer and supplication. They may mock us and laugh at us, but in the end, the gates of hell shall not prevail.
We shouldn’t complain when we suffer ridicule from our own brothers in sisters in Christ, for insisting on reverence and Catholic tradition. Christ, who was perfect, suffered. Should we not suffer even more?
Let’s just stay focused and keep doing what we do.
Like the six million dollar man, the Church will come out of this better, stronger, faster.
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pnewton
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Yes, that was back in 2007. That even had its own subforum when it came out.
forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=115
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ProVobis
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FWIW, the actual French was produit banal de l’instant. I ran this past the Google translator and it came up as “ordinary product of the moment.”
notredamedesneiges.over-blog.com/article-hommage-du-cardinal-ratzinger-a-mgr-klaus-gamber-52650823.html
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Rich_C
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Amen. God allowed this crisis for some greater good.All I’m going to say is that prayer changes things.
If the Lord tarries, our descendants will look back 100 years from now and wonder how the Church ever survived its chastisement.
Let’s not give up but ask for everything through prayer and supplication. They may mock us and laugh at us, but in the end, the gates of hell shall not prevail.
We shouldn’t complain when we suffer ridicule from our own brothers in sisters in Christ, for insisting on reverence and Catholic tradition. Christ, who was perfect, suffered. Should we not suffer even more?
Let’s just stay focused and keep doing what we do.
Like the six million dollar man, the Church will come out of this better, stronger, faster.
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Annabelle_Marie
Guest
Having the OF form of the Mass is no crisis…that’s like saying that the EF returning or being more widely available is a crisis.
They are BOTH valid and IMHO those would refuse to accept Vatican II are no different then those who do not accept that Latin is the official language of the Church.
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Annabelle_Marie
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Altar Girls extremely damaging? REALLY? I knew this would pop up here somewhere…all the evils of the world can be blamed on altar girls…
The Holy See approves them and does not call them damaging. Yes…altar boys are preferred…but not because altar girls are damaging…jeez…
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Thomas_Casey
Guest
The thread is filled with speculations and allegations. That’s not the purpose of this forum. The purpose is to educate by answering questions with facts, not personal opinions and to enjoy yourself while doing so. Catholic tradition is not about speculation. What the Church allows, it allows. Why she allows it is not for this forum to judge or speculate.
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Annabelle_Marie
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curlycool89;9480161And it is. Some people have elevated something like “no meat on Fridays” to a dogma without remembering the reasons why we’re doing it; the doing it (action) became more important than the reason *why [/quote said:it was being done.
There was a comment on this forum a while back where someone asked “who ever heard of Catholics eating meat on Fridays?” That’s a comment I would expect to hear from a sociologist commenting on cultural phenomenons, not a comment on faith. People considered it an important part of Catholic culture, but it is not essential for the faith itself.
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no kidding…when I was investigating coming back to the Church…I asked numerous Catholics on why they did not eat meat on Friday…no one knew…
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