Why did we change the English version of the Nicene Creed?

  • Thread starter Thread starter wpcatholic
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Just FYI, this thread is a year old.

I don’t know that it’s accurate to label ICEL as full of “progressives” any more. That may have been true in the 1970’s, but I don’t think that’s an accurate assessment of the present make-up of the ICEL. After all, it is the present ICEL that is giving us the beautiful new English translation that is coming this Advent.

Instead of lamenting the past (about which there is certainly no shortage of things to lament), I think it is more productive to be hopeful and joyful about the present and future. The new translation that is coming soon is a vast improvement over the current one. I believe things are heading in a much better direction now.
Dear Joe, I wish I could be as positive as you about the too-little, too-late reform of the reform. As for me and my family, I will just attend the FSSP mass and leave the science projects to those who believe these new changes will accomplish anything except semantics.

[edited]
 
Dear Joe, I wish I could be as positive as you about the too-little, too-late reform of the reform. As for me and my family, I will just attend the FSSP mass and leave the science projects to those who believe these new changes will accomplish anything except semantics.

[edited]
It’s never too late for genuine reform to take place. 👍

Yes, I guess I am an optimist. 😛

But, really, I don’t think it’s just hopeless optimism. History is long and my lifetime is short. I trust that the Holy Spirit will work us through the messes we often create and get us moving, however imperfectly, in the right direction. Just as it is never too late this side of death for us to repent, turn around, and embrace the Lord, it is never too late this side of the parousia for the Church to do the same.

I’m glad you have found a parish that you like.
 
The Nicene Creed was originally written in Greek, and should be considered the authoritative version. It begins with “We believe…”, which is “pisteuomen”, the ending “omen” indicating “we”. I think this is a positive change since it moves us closer to reciting the same creed, which is essential to eventual reunion. Now if we could just work on the “filioque” clause… 😉
 
Does anyone remember that cradleconvert is “cradlecath?” The same posting problems are back as well.
 
I am not cradlecath.

Staying on topic, I am just glad the creed is being restored. [edited]

Blessings to all:D
 
I am told that before Vatican 2, the Nicene Creed began with “I believe”; I know that (at least) the Spanish version of the Creed still starts that way, but in America we now say “We believe.” Why was it changed from ‘I’ to ‘we’?

Thanks and God bless!
Because they messed up the translation. There’s nothing complicated about it. Any first year latin student can see that “credo” means “I believe”. “We believe” would be “credemus” (I think:)).
 
Because they messed up the translation. There’s nothing complicated about it. Any first year latin student can see that “credo” means “I believe”. “We believe” would be “credemus” (I think:)).
It would be credimus in the first-person plural present tense.

Credemus would be first-person plural future tense.
 
Because they messed up the translation. There’s nothing complicated about it. Any first year latin student can see that “credo” means “I believe”. “We believe” would be “credemus” (I think:)).
One could also say, any first-year Greek student can see that “πιστεύομεν” means “we believe” – “I believe” would be would be “πιστεύω.” The fact is, even though we had Latin translations in the plural, somebody (we know not who) took it upon themselves to “improve” the translation by changing “credimus” to “credo.” It must have been the progressives on the CILGL (Commissio Internationalis super Linguam Graecorum in Liturgia), right? Did they even know Greek? I mean, any first-year Greek student … blah, blah, blah.

The fact is, the plural form is older and more authentic. Now, the translators of the English liturgy probably should not have taken it upon themselves to work from older forms, but merely to translate what was given in the Latin. Still, what they did was well within the spirit of the liturgical reforms of the time, like it or not. One can say “I disagree with their methodology of engaging in critical translation by drawing on urtexts,” but not “Ho ho, such incompetence!”
 
One could also say, any first-year Greek student can see that “πιστεύομεν” means “we believe” – “I believe” would be would be “πιστεύω.” The fact is, even though we had Latin translations in the plural, somebody (we know not who) took it upon themselves to “improve” the translation by changing “credimus” to “credo.” It must have been the progressives on the CILGL (Commissio Internationalis super Linguam Graecorum in Liturgia), right? Did they even know Greek? I mean, any first-year Greek student … blah, blah, blah.

The fact is, the plural form is older and more authentic. Now, the translators of the English liturgy probably should not have taken it upon themselves to work from older forms, but merely to translate what was given in the Latin. Still, what they did was well within the spirit of the liturgical reforms of the time, like it or not. One can say “I disagree with their methodology of engaging in critical translation by drawing on urtexts,” but not “Ho ho, such incompetence!”
Interesting… I had no clue that “we believe” is actually the older form. Thanks for the insight!
 
The fact is, the plural form is older and more authentic.
Yes and no. It’s true that the text of Nicea & Constantinople I was in the plural, but it is equally true that the liturgical use of same has always been in the singular (except in the Syriac Churches, and I’m not sure about the Alexandrenes or Armenians, but that’s irrelevant to this thread) .
Now, the translators of the English liturgy probably should not have taken it upon themselves to work from older forms, but merely to translate what was given in the Latin.
That would have been nice, but the fact is they did their own thing.
Still, what they did was well within the spirit of the liturgical reforms of the time, like it or not. One can say “I disagree with their methodology of engaging in critical translation by drawing on urtexts,” but not “Ho ho, such incompetence!”
I have to disagree. Given that the Latin liturgical use of the Creed is in the singular, and given that the English-language version of the Novus Ordo is supposed to be a translation of the official Latin text, changing the person from singular to plural goes well beyond translation, but it was well within the agenda of those behind the so-called “reforms.”
 
Yes and no. It’s true that the text of Nicea & Constantinople I was in the plural, but it is equally true that the liturgical use of same has always been in the singular (except in the Syriac Churches, and I’m not sure about the Alexandrenes or Armenians, but that’s irrelevant to this thread) .

That would have been nice, but the fact is they did their own thing.

I have to disagree. Given that the Latin liturgical use of the Creed is in the singular, and given that the English-language version of the Novus Ordo is supposed to be a translation of the official Latin text, changing the person from singular to plural goes well beyond translation, but it was well within the agenda of those behind the so-called “reforms.”
Oh yes, those are fair points. I will take issue, though, with your statement that “the English-language version of the Novus Ordo is supposed to be a translation of the official Latin text.” You suppose it to be so, and in a post-Liturgiam Authenticam climate your supposition is no doubt justified. The people who carried the work in the late '60s and early '70s, however – and the people who approved their results – seem to have been laboring under no such supposition.

What I am responding to is the trendy thing that people say in our post-Liturgicam Authenticam world: “Oh, those translators made mistakes no first-year Latin student could make! Credo doesn’t mean ‘we believe’; peccata mundi doesn’t mean ‘the sin of the world’; mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa doesn’t mean ‘through my fault’! Ha ha, what morons!”

Some people stop there, getting their chuckle at the idiots who somehow didn’t compute that credo is singular. The next group says, “Well, I can tell they deliberately changed it, so it must have been a change with absolutely no legitimate basis, coming from nothing but the translators’ pure whim and personal preference for a touchy-feely, I-love-you-you-love-me, group-hug spirituality, if not an outright desire to subvert and destroy the traditions of the Church at every opportunity. That makes it ludicrous, if not evil; case closed.”

Neither of those views is really accurate. By and large, the translators (1) knew what they were doing, (2) were trying to do something within the realm of reasonable goals, and (3) successfully accomplished it. Today, we disagree with their aims and methodology: we no longer want to archaeologize at the expense of overturning longstanding usages; we no longer want the vernacular text to be a simplified and plain expression; we assign the translators the task of bare translation, never rewriting or proposing changes for approval by Rome. And I agree! But the prior, contrary view of the role the translators should take was (1) widely held and backed up by the relevant documents, such as Comme le prevoit, (2) approved at the time by the authorities in Rome, and (3) squarely within the spirit of the changes the Consilium was in the process of effecting for the global Church.

I think we can do what Bl. John Paul did in Liturgiam Authenticam and reject that previous view without accusing those who held it of idiocy or bad intent.
 
From my research of the doings of the committee and the general process, I believe that the committee hid behind the “noble simplicity” myth (texts of ancient masses are actually somewhat complex) in order to acculturate the prayers to the modern and particularly the less-literate secular ear. I believe if you read the writings of those involved, you will see their motives firsthand, because we can all guess until we are blue in the face, but their motives were well-published. We don’t really have to guess.

How does the N.O. translation of “shed for all” square with your theory? Is it “many”, or “all”?
Words matter. Was that a change that was made for noble simplicity? Or, was it just bad theology?

Hurray for the Holy Father for trying to correct the problems. And, hurray for today’s Moto Proprio!:D:D:D

👍
 
The Department of Defense has many standards for any construction or fabrication designated by MIL-STD-xxxxx. A favorite informal standard was MIL-TDP-41 [Make It Like The Danged Print For Once.]

We need a similar standard for translators and celebrants who can’t believe that the Liturgy will work without their own personal additions to make it fly. 😦
 
I wish they hadn’t changed the wording to use such a different format with ‘consubstantial’ etc in it.

The result in my experience is very strange, I can go to a Church of Ireland service and recite ‘their’ Nicene creed word perfect, but in my own Catholic church I am stumbling and stuttering over the new wording. Why upset the apple cart for the Catholics who had actually set the thing to memory? The Nicene creed I did learn originally covers the beliefs quite nicely thanks.

Also I prefer ‘Lord I am not worthy to receive you…’ to the one with the ‘under the roof’ reference.

Ad eundem
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top