Why did we need a New Mass?

[brotherhrolf]

I’ve never seen this before on any of the threads. But has anyone ever pointed out that we had missals I still have my “little” St. Joseph missal which I received upon making my first communion in 1957. I got my “big” St. Joseph missal when I was confirmed in 1963. Latin on one page, English on the other. Same thing went for the “altar cards” (laminated cards with Latin on one side English on the other) used by altar boys back then. I never had any problem with Latin. The other big thing that never seems to be mentioned is that we could attend Mass ANYWHERE in the world and understand.

 

[bear06]

Just a little observation here…

I don’t think it’s that hard to learn the latin for the mass. Like anything else you repeat time and again, it gets easier.

That said, I hate to see people have to rely on reading the latin and looking for the translation because it doesn’t seem like people are really praying at that point. They’re trying to find a translation. If people want to attend a TLM, I suggest they study it first so they don’t have to rely so much on finding the english translation in the missals or cards. It’s more like a mass than a language lesson that way.

I’ve also got to say that the people who find it easy to follow probably don’t have tiny ones. This is still a big barrier to me. I miss to much keeping my kids in line. It doesn’t matter how much I know the latin. If my 18mos. old is trying to crawl under the pew at the Consecration, I’m more than likely to miss it since it’s not audible.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I understand your point completely. I made my first communion and confirmation just before Vatican II. I grew up with Latin and, speaking for myself, I was comfortable with it. My point is that it seems that everyone believes that no one understood what was being said at Mass because it was in Latin. This is simply not the case. We may not have been able to speak Latin but we all certainly understood what Hoc Est Calix Meum meant. All this was lost when we went to the vernacular. This was really brought home to me when in 1992 my parish celebrated its 200th anniversary. The French cardinal gave the apostolic blessing in Latin and oh, how few, how few were able to respond. Latin is a unifying factor.

 

[bear06]

Look, all of the “greats” say it. Latin wasn’t supposed to be totally dumped from the Mass. Had that not happened there would be fewer people having trouble understanding. Converts would definitely still have a lot of learining and there might even be less for it. I, personally, hope that we always have the Pauline Mass if for no other reason than I will always be able to hear the words of the Consecration, no matter what language, even if I am crawling under a pew to retrieve a child!

 

[rwoehmke]

terrcatholic:

Well, I am a bit to smart to get myself kicked off. Lets just say a leader like St Pius V or St Pius X would be much appreciated right about now by about 60Million Catholics in the US. Our Holy Father is a loving, caring wonderful man, but we need a disciplinarian, like a Father is in the household. Kind of reminds me of the 1980’s when after years of liberals like the Kennedy’s, Johnson, Carter, with the country mired in immorality and 18% inflation, we asked for and got some direction once again in Ronald Reagan.

All political denigration aside, I find it interesting that some people posting are disappointed because the Pope and Bishops do not do enough disciplining. I suppose we would be talking interdict and excommunication. My take on the whole picture is that a Pope or Bishop can have all the authority in the world, but it is only good if those being disciplined accept it. I believe that the majority of those disciplined would give the old one finger salute and go about their business. I know that several Bishops have threatened such actions against people who would join such nutcake organizations as Catholics for a Free Choice, etc. How effective have these discipinary actions been?

 

[katherine2]

bear06:

Who says it’s OK to quote Greely or Kung? It seems that the double standards are being applied by both sides but not those of us in the middle. Heretics on either side should be used!

Fr. Greeley (Andrew) has never been found guilty of being a heretic.

 

[katherine2]

brotherhrolf:

I’ve never seen this before on any of the threads. But has anyone ever pointed out that we had missals I still have my “little” St. Joseph missal which I received upon making my first communion in 1957. I got my “big” St. Joseph missal when I was confirmed in 1963. Latin on one page, English on the other. Same thing went for the “altar cards” (laminated cards with Latin on one side English on the other) used by altar boys back then. I never had any problem with Latin. The other big thing that never seems to be mentioned is that we could attend Mass ANYWHERE in the world and understand.

Dear Brother,

Yes we had Missals. We had Missals because late in the Tridentine period (1880’s) somew disobedient German Catholics began publishing German/Latin Missals. This was condemned by the Holy See but because of the political situation in Germany (Kuturkampf) the Vatican was unable to make their ban effective.

This “dissent” began to spread to other countries and in the 20th century, the Vatican gave in to the “dissenters” and permitted such Missals.

Up until the Council, use of such missals, though now authorized, wre considered a mark of a “liberal, liturgical reformer” while more conservative Catholics prefered their prayerbooks and rosaries while at Mass.

So if you think these missals are what make the Latin Mass work, give a liberal a hug.

 

[terrcatholic]

I have the same missal, and by reading the english prayers and the like while listening to the latin (and after time you do Learn some latin) you fully take in what is going on, instead of hearing it in the vernacular and dozing off. And to throw out 70% of the prayers and shorten the mass, etc. It makes no sense to this observer, but you all probably know that by now. I admit I am a Catholic who is a “conservative activist” as my wife and I and others from our church after mass go from church to church and hand out literature explaining the latin mass, the sacrements which were changed, the falloff in everything from the priesthood to attendance , etc hoping to enlighten many who never even heard of Vatican II, and there are thousands out there, I work with them, and I have aunts and uncles that never even understood what happened and they just stopped going after the changes and fell away from the faith.

brotherhrolf:

I’ve never seen this before on any of the threads. But has anyone ever pointed out that we had missals I still have my “little” St. Joseph missal which I received upon making my first communion in 1957. I got my “big” St. Joseph missal when I was confirmed in 1963. Latin on one page, English on the other. Same thing went for the “altar cards” (laminated cards with Latin on one side English on the other) used by altar boys back then. I never had any problem with Latin. The other big thing that never seems to be mentioned is that we could attend Mass ANYWHERE in the world and understand.

 

[katherine2]

terrcatholic:

I have the same missal, and by reading the english prayers and the like while listening to the latin (and after time you do Learn some latin) you fully take in what is going on,

Then hug a liberal dissenter for making that possible.

instead of hearing it in the vernacular and dozing off.

not a problem at my progressive parish. No one dozes off.

And to throw out 70% of the prayers and shorten the mass, etc.

Except the liturgical renewal lengthned the Mass and kept all of the major prayers (Gloria, Kyrie, Credo, Sanctus, Angus Dei, etc).

It makes no sense to this observer,

Your description of the former Mass rite makes no sense to this person who was alive before the Council.

 

[tom.wineman]

brotherhrolf:

I’ve never seen this before on any of the threads. But has anyone ever pointed out that we had missals I still have my “little” St. Joseph missal which I received upon making my first communion in 1957. I got my “big” St. Joseph missal when I was confirmed in 1963. Latin on one page, English on the other. Same thing went for the “altar cards” (laminated cards with Latin on one side English on the other) used by altar boys back then. I never had any problem with Latin. The other big thing that never seems to be mentioned is that we could attend Mass ANYWHERE in the world and understand.

I had a Latin/English missal in the late 40’s that was prefigured for about ten years with all the readings. Worked fine. Thought it was far better than all that rosary rattling

 

[Catholic_Dude]

i went to sspx.org and a lot of the stuff made about the old mass made sense to me, at the same time im not going to have anything to do with them. the thing i dont understand is why the Church doesnt abolish the TLM and ex all the rebels, its been what 35 years since V2. you cant stop something if you allow a loophole.

as i said above my interst in this subject came about when i looked into a translation. one listed the TLM and NO side by side . the NO is about 1/2 the other. Its like the head and heart were left but the flesh and bones were removed. why did they throw this stuff out? its like when i was in high school and they would make us read classics out of a literature textbook, the problem is that there would only be select chapters of the classic.

p.s. what was the mass BEFORE Trent?

 

[katherine2]

Catholic Dude:

as i said above my interst in this subject came about when i looked into a translation. one listed the TLM and NO side by side . the NO is about 1/2 the other. Its like the head and heart were left but the flesh and bones were removed. why did they throw this stuff out?

Actually the Mass now is much longer. First of all the former Mass was frequently and sadly rushed through. Since it was not in the language of the people, priests coudl get away without carefully saying each word or even pronouncing it right.

The priest would also sometimes start his prayer while the choir or altar server was still saying (singing) its part.

Most importantly, the Mass now has a richer selection of Scripture readings including a reading from the Old Testament.

All in all, I would say about an additional 20 minutes.

 

[bear06]

katherine2:

Fr. Greeley (Andrew) has never been found guilty of being a heretic.

OK, would wackos on either side suit you better? Fr. Greeley is for women priests (heretical since it goes against the Deposit of Faith, no?),writes sexually explicit novels, etc. The point is that people who rail against the authority of the Church shouldn’t bother being quoted. There are many people who have not formally been declared heretics with heretical points of view.

 

[fcfahs]

Here’s an intersting page from a website hosted by Saint Joseph’s Catholic Church,
one of the relatively few remaining Traditional Catholic Churches. On this page, there
are links to several articles on the Mass (old vs. new), including one which compares
the Latin Mass to the New Mass (word for word). However, the pervasive agenda
of this page is to present a well documented case against the Vatican II Liturgy, and
the teachings of Pope John Paul II.

I truely hope the articles found there will not only resolve most questions (in this forum
thread) about the Latin Mass vs. the New Mass, but also stimulate many new posts
with regard to the possible dangers of the Vatican II Liturgy and our papal mindset.

Just searching for the truth,

Frank

 

[katherine2]

bear06:

Fr. Greeley is for women priests (heretical since it goes against the Deposit of Faith, no?),

Do you have a quote? Father Greeley rarely comments on any theological issue.

writes sexually explicit novels, etc.

My daughter loves his novels. However, they are slightly less racy that some parts of the Bible.

 

[katolik]

fcfahs:

Here’s an intersting page from a website hosted by Saint Joseph’s Catholic Church,
one of the relatively few remaining Traditional Catholic Churches. On this page, there
are links to several articles on the Mass (old vs. new), including one which compares
the Latin Mass to the New Mass (word for word). However, the pervasive agenda
of this page is to present a well documented case against the Vatican II Liturgy, and
the teachings of Pope John Paul II.

I truely hope the articles found there will not only resolve most questions (in this forum
thread) about the Latin Mass vs. the New Mass, but also stimulate many new posts
with regard to the possible dangers of the Vatican II Liturgy and our papal mindset.

Just searching for the truth,

Frank

Note: This is a sedevacantist webpage,not a Traditional Catholic webpage. The sedevacantists are outside the Church.

 

[philipmarus]

Actually the Mass now is much longer. First of all the former Mass was frequently and sadly rushed through. Since it was not in the language of the people, priests coudl get away without carefully saying each word or even pronouncing it right.

The priest would also sometimes start his prayer while the choir or altar server was still saying (singing) its part.

Most importantly, the Mass now has a richer selection of Scripture readings including a reading from the Old Testament.

All in all, I would say about an additional 20 minutes.

This has not been my experence. I attend both the new mass and I drive 50 miles to attend a TLM about twice a month. While I didn’t take a stopwatch inside, they are both about equal usually hovering around a hour judging by the clock in my car. I don’t think it very fair to make comparisons to Pre-V2 masses based on exceptions such as a few cases where Priests rushed. By the same token I have experences a few times in the new mass I’ve attended where the Homily was skipped altogether which would make the mass somewhat shorter. I know one of one Parish near me where the Priest refuses to allow Adult education classes that use the Catechism of Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul II. Do I think this is typical or the norm in the new mass? Of course not. The point of this post is something I’ve noticed. Because of the extreme attacks of some radical traditionalists attacking the Pope and other things, I’ve noticed some non-traditionalists Catholics (for lack of better term) to do the same thing in reverse and try to denigrate the old mass.I’ve come to think that these non-traditionalists really consists to two groups. One is faithful Catholics professing loyalty to our Holy Father. The other is dissenting, liberal, progressives hiding out in parishes of the New Mass who are as openly hostile to TLM as Radical Trads are to the new mass.

 

[Munda_cor_meum]

PET PEEVE ALERT!!!

katherine2:

My daughter loves his novels. However, they are slightly less racy that some parts of the Bible.

Sorry, but this really bothers me. Why on earth would anyone attempt to justify bad behavior by pointing to other (perhaps worse) behavior!!! This is absurd. Wrong is wrong. Are you seriously suggesting that I should be relieved of my moral responsibilities because others are equally or more immoral?

Can I say to the Judge, Sorry your honor, I know I was speeding, but others have driven even faster so you cannot fine me.

 

[katherine2]

Munda cor meum:

PET PEEVE ALERT!!!

Sorry, but this really bothers me. Why on earth would anyone attempt to justify bad behavior by pointing to other (perhaps worse) behavior!!! This is absurd. Wrong is wrong. Are you seriously suggesting that I should be relieved of my moral responsibilities because others are equally or more immoral?

Can I say to the Judge, Sorry your honor, I know I was speeding, but others have driven even faster so you cannot fine me.

You are saying both the raciness of Greeely’s novels and the Bible are bad?

 

[katherine2]

philipmarus:

This has not been my experence. I attend both the new mass and I drive 50 miles to attend a TLM about twice a month.

yes, I was referring to the situation before the Council. Nowdays, the celebration of the former Mass is much better.

By the same token I have experences a few times in the new mass I’ve attended where the Homily was skipped altogether

Befor ethe Council, of course, the homily was optional.

None of this is an attack on the former Mass. Many neo-traditionalist seem to have little knowledge of the real situation before the Council.