Why did we need a New Mass?

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katherine2:
You are saying both the raciness of Greeely’s novels and the Bible are bad?
No I am not. The fact that you think the Bible is sexually stimulating is your hangup. But you cannot use it to justify or condone Greely’s novels which are - deliberately - sexually stimulating and titilating.

More importantly, if both are bad ( and no, I do not believe the Bible is) they are both bad. One is not dependent on the other
 
In my view, Greeley is a dissenter. The June 2004 edition of Homiletic and Pastoral Review wrote of Father Greeley

*"*religious illiteracy is at least one key factor explaining the growth of the selective ‘picking and choosing’ of the essentials of the faith both described and advocated by sociologist Father Andrew Greeley …For Father Greeley it is inevitable and desirous that the locus of religious authority reside with the individual and not with received or organically developing tradition. Such a radical individuation or religion is quite consistent with the worldview of liberal Protestantism and Protestantizing Catholicism"

My RCIA teacher at my “New Mass parish” who has helped me considerably in my faith formation swears by the Orthodoxy of the
Homiletic and Pastoral Review.
 
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katherine2:
yes, I was referring to the situation before the Council. Nowdays, the celebration of the former Mass is much better.

Befor ethe Council, of course, the homily was optional.

None of this is an attack on the former Mass. Many neo-traditionalist seem to have little knowledge of the real situation before the Council.
The homily is still optional. Duhh…
Perhaps, many neomodernists are afraid of neotraditionalists 😉
rant
No, take me back, No Latin in Mass,I want my mess back!!!
I want to not here about hell at Mass!!! take me back!
 
The June 2004 edition of Homiletic and Pastoral Review wrote of Father Greeley
You accuse a priest of God of dissent from the teachings of the Church and you are unable to cite as evidence even one dissenting word of the man.

Instead you print one line of what was written about him by another person you cowardly do not even name.

I find that all shameful.
 
The article in question is written by Dr. Joseph Varacalli, Professor of Sociology and Director for the Center for Catholic Studies at Nassau Community College-S.U.N.Y. The Homiletic and Pastoral Review is very reliable source in my opinion and is edited by a “Priest of God” Fr. Kenny Baker who has appeared on EWTN a number of times.

Greeley seems to be saying the same thing on his website:

In any event the days of the docile peasant and the not quite so docile immigrant parish are gone and they will never return. The church must adjust to the fact that in the European and North Atlantic world at any rate, the day of the free laity who make their own decisions after reflecting on the issues, who want to be heard, consulted, persuaded, is the world in which we live and work. In the present milieu, the laity reserve to themselves the right to say on what terms they will be Catholic. Nothing will change that fact, neither orders from Rome nor hysterical ranting from the tiny fundamentalist Catholic minority.

agreeley.com/articles/freelaity.html

He may be subtle about his positions, but he’s talking about democratizing the Church structures into what amounts to Protestantizing the church. The Anglicans have gone down this path where they all vote on doctrine. I’ve read recently Archbishop of Canterbury questioned the existence of God.

See also his sharp criticism of Cardinal Ratzinger document
“collaboration between men and women” that condemned radical feminism. nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/228289p-196055c.html
 
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katherine2:
You accuse a priest of God of dissent from the teachings of the Church and you are unable to cite as evidence even one dissenting word of the man.

Instead you print one line of what was written about him by another person you cowardly do not even name.

I find that all shameful.
I had to look long and hard for that quote from which I was basing MY belief that he is for women priests. Actually, I already had that belief because you only have to check out the women’s ordination sites to know that he is their hero but I found the quote anyway. I could kick myself for not bookmarking it because now I have more work to do! Argh! Despite the fact that I have yet to find the original, here’s some more that should shock you.

How about this one from cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_omalley/20040427.html
Asked why the Catholic Church does not allow the ordination of women, Greeley says, "The argument is: because they have never been priests.
If you make women priests you’re going to have to share power, and change the way you do business. It’s terribly unjust."
Let’s look at some of his commentaries on his famous study. Here’s the very first line from this study found at we-are-church.org/imwac/resources/documents/Greeley_survey-1997.htm
The Catholic laity hopes for a new pope who will be attentive to the realities of their lives and open to change. He should achieve these goals by giving autonomy to the local bishops, appointing lay advisors, returning to the practice of electing local bishops, ordaining women, and allowing priests to marry. If enacted, these reforms will make the church a more pluralistic and democratic institution.
After reading these commentaries, I’m not sure what you could possibly gather from them other than the Church should be a bottom up Church and that doctrines can change.

Here’s a challenge for you. Can you show me where Fr. Greeley has once said that the ordination of women goes against the Deposit of Faith. Let’s see, he says that it would involve a doctrinal change but he never bothers to say that this can’t happen. He spends an awful lot of time saying that they laity at large wants this but never bothers to explain the Church’s teachings on the matter.

Fr. Greeley is very careful which is why he hasn’t been silenced. If you want to get mad at somebody who doesn’t cite their sources, how about him? Here’s an interesting interview that tells a lot about Fr. Greeley.

pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week536/agreeley.html
It’s quite interesting that he thinks that women have been treated unfairly in the Church but doesn’t give examples. This is typical of him. And I love this quote:
And how fundamental are these teachings? What’s more important? Life after death or birth control? What is more important? God’s forgiving love or premarital sex? The sexual ethic is important, but it’s not the only thing in Catholicism. I’m afraid sometimes our leaders – and the media, too – have made it sound as if the only unique thing about Catholicism is sexual teaching. The lay people know better
There’s so much more to quote from. Read the article. He’s clueless.

As for his books, I’ve got to wonder which ones your daughter has read or which bible she’s reading! They are terribly explicit and are definitely a near occaision of sin.

I’m sure I’m running out of space here. I’ll post more Greeley quotes when I get a chance.
 
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philipmarus:
Greeley seems to be saying the same thing on his website:

In any event the days of the docile peasant and the not quite so docile immigrant parish are gone and they will never return. The church must adjust to the fact that in the European and North Atlantic world at any rate, the day of the free laity who make their own decisions after reflecting on the issues, who want to be heard, consulted, persuaded, is the world in which we live and work. In the present milieu, the laity reserve to themselves the right to say on what terms they will be Catholic. Nothing will change that fact, neither orders from Rome nor hysterical ranting from the tiny fundamentalist Catholic minority.

See also his sharp criticism of Cardinal Ratzinger document
“collaboration between men and women” that condemned radical feminism. nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/228289p-196055c.html
The first statement is a sociological observation, not a theological statement. And criticism of Cardinal Ratzinger is not heresy.
 
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csbyrnes84:
It “can” be done, but rarely ever is. In my opinion we didn’t need the Novus Ordo at all. The modified liturgies of 1964 or 1967 would have been fine.

If you want to see what we are missing today go and see a High Latin Mass (a High Solemn mass if possible) and then go to your average Novus Ordo parish, I am sure you will see the difference.

I was not born pre-Vatican II so I have never known of any abuses that took place in the Latin Mass before the Council, and whatever abuses did occur before Vatican II no longer take place in Latin Masses which are said today. Luckily for me there are two excellent Tridentine-Only-Parishes within 20 minutes of where I live which have the approval of the Bishop.
The Tridentine mass makes no sense, if you went to a NO. mass then a TLM then most people would prefer the NO. mass. Saying mass with your back the people is totally irreverant. Christ didn’t proclaim the Good News with His back to the people. Then there are other errors too. The Church made an excellent move in going ahead with Vatican II! YAY!!!
Podo
Mis dos centavos:)
 
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Podo2004:
The Tridentine mass makes no sense, if you went to a NO. mass then a TLM then most people would prefer the NO. mass. Saying mass with your back the people is totally irreverant. Christ didn’t proclaim the Good News with His back to the people. Then there are other errors too. The Church made an excellent move in going ahead with Vatican II! YAY!!!
Podo
Mis dos centavos:)
Welcome back PODO!
I’ll say this, You have learned how to Poke a bees nest at a very tender age. Don’t try that on your parents. 😉

I think I’ll wait back and watch the honey bees swarm. Hope you are sting-proof!
 
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Podo2004:
Saying mass with your back the people is totally irreverant.
Then the priest is being totally irreverent when he goes up to the altar during the entrance procession because his back is turned to the people.

And that would also mean that the people in the pews in front of you are being totally irreverent because they turn their backs to you. And you’re being totally irreverent to the people behind you because you turn your back to them (especially during the sign of peace, in which you get to turn your back to just everybody, which makes it an equal-opportunity irreverence).

I haven’t yet decided whether the people sitting in the pews beside you are being totally irreverent, since they just turn their sides to you and not their backs.
😛
 
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Podo2004:
The Tridentine mass makes no sense, if you went to a NO. mass then a TLM then most people would prefer the NO. mass. Saying mass with your back the people is totally irreverant. Christ didn’t proclaim the Good News with His back to the people. Then there are other errors too. The Church made an excellent move in going ahead with Vatican II! YAY!!!
Podo
Mis dos centavos:)
So tell us, how was your first time at the Traditional Latin Mass, Podo? :whistle:
 
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bear06:
Let me know if anyone would like me to start a Greeley thread. I realize this is off topic.

Here’s an interesting expose on Fr. Greeley I hadn’t seen before.
How about:
Lefebvre vs Greeley On Trial
or
Lefebvre OUSTED Greeley AVDANCES in VATII Church
Then we could string out Sites for/against each as to why one was ousted and the other advanced.

or
Lefebvre vs Greeley. If u had to choose, which would be your Bishop.
A little off the subject:
WHERE ARE THE NOTORIOUS PERITI OF VATII?

I have other thought starters.
 
The sociological observations of Greeley as some call it, seems to be a position he not only “observes” but advocates in the opinion of many observers including the Homiletic and Pastoral Review. Just look at the quote I gave and look at the his tone in writing it. He take almost glee in the “sociological fact” of American Catholics dissenting on individual teachings and Rome can nothing about it. Well, I suspose the fact that maybe only 30% of Catholics believe in the Real Presence is another “sociological fact” that Rome can do nothing about either.This view of Greeley’s more than just a neutral observation.(See Pope Leo XIII condemnation of heresy called AMERICANISM in Testem benevolentiae in 1899)…Greeley clearly advocates the ordination of Women from link someone else gave, which Pope John Paul II said it ain’t going to happen. In the opinion of my RCIA teacher this teaching that is next to impossible of change.I don’t know what other teachings he personally “dissents from” but that he clearly he thinks the church needs to change and that enough of reason for me to avoid him.

I also find it interesting that some members of Church that dissent on individual teachings are also incredibly hostile to the TLM Indult. Why ?
 
I also find it interesting that some members of Church that dissent on individual teachings are also incredibly hostile to the TLM Indult. Why ?
They’re not just hostile to the Indult. They’re hostile to ANY reverent Mass or priests who follow the teachings of the Church. It’s a danger to them.

Also, I wouldn’t say the Greeley is advancing in the Vatican. What’s your proof of this, TNT? The problem with Greeley is that he’s very sly. I know people would like to think that the Vatican’s only goes after the conservatives, but there has been far more notifications on the liberals than the conservatives. Check out this site ourladyswarriors.org/ If go to the “Dissent” page (link found on the left) you can see a link to the Vatican’s list of dissenters and you can also see letters of notification on several liberal wackos as well as Lefebvre.
 
Awhile back my Mom got me book on Vatican II, but it was written by a non-catholic and seemed to have a kind of liberal spin in criticizing the Church (from what I could skim of it). In one place I remember it attacked the church’s traditional understanding of Mathew 16:18. Anyways I’ve been wanting to read the 16 Documents of the Second Vatican Council for myself. Is there good book that has these unedited thats not too expensive? I don’t really like reading lengthly documents on a computer.
 
Check out this site ourladyswarriors.org/ If go to the “Dissent” page (link found on the left) you can see a link to the Vatican’s list of dissenters and you can also see letters of notification on several liberal wackos as well as Lefebvre.
Thanks for posting this link.
 
Katherine2 I prefer to hug a conservative. My Republican grandfather had a missal way back in 1908. He was the son of Italian immigrants and his father who was a Boston Police officer was killed in the line of duty. He had no use for liberal clap trap about criminals. What a great man, he was a true visionary. In the 60 and 70’s when they Democrats sided with abortion he felt totally justified. He saw their moral decline long before JFK said he wouldn’t let his faith or the Church rule him.
The Church I go to is my mother’s childhood Parish. She said a Low Mass then ran about hour 10minutes to an hour 20minutes depending on the homily. A High Mass was about an hour 30-45 minutes which is the same as now. Now our admistrator who sometimes says Mass and has no use for us, no matter how fast he goes has never made it under an hour. I can’t see how you can do a Low Mass under an hour nevermind 20 miutes as you have said on other threads.
Kathy
 
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philipmarus:
Awhile back my Mom got me book on Vatican II, but it was written by a non-catholic and seemed to have a kind of liberal spin in criticizing the Church (from what I could skim of it). In one place I remember it attacked the church’s traditional understanding of Mathew 16:18. Anyways I’ve been wanting to read the 16 Documents of the Second Vatican Council for myself. Is there good book that has these unedited thats not too expensive? I don’t really like reading lengthly documents on a computer.
Check the local Catholic bookstore but I’m guessing they run in the $25 range. I’ve gotten copies at our church’s used book sale for $1.00!
 
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