Why did Yaweh change?

[scapularkid8]

In the Old Testament, He’s a fire throwing warrior for the Hebrews, but then He becomes a Father in the New Testament. I see that He was doing all the fire-throwing out of love and to care for His Chosen people, but did the Israelites just not get it and that’s why God is depicted as such a warrior in the Old Testament?? Why the change? (Now I know God doesn’t change, but I just am a little confused why the ways He is depicted changed.)

 

[Verbum]

Hi Scapular,

In the Middle East, each nation was thought to go into battle with its god as general. This is why the warrring actions of the Jewish people were ascribed to God.

As for other characteristics of God, it is possible that some were emphasized in the Old Testament and some were emphasized in the New Testament. But God is inexhaustible in the infinity of his qualities.

Nevertheless, I believe that this dichotomy is exaggerated. Please read chapter 54 from Isaiah. Here’s a sample:

Mountains can disappear and hills be shaken but my love for you will not disappear and my peace alliance with you will not be shaken.

Psalm 23 :

The Lord is my shepherd, I lack nothing.
In fresh, grassy meadows he pens me
He leads me to restful waters;
he refreshes my soul.

Psalm 86

But you, Lord, God of tenderness and pity,
slow to anger, full of love and fidelity;
turn towards me and and have pity on me.

The whole of Psalm 136 is a hymn of love

For eternal is His love

So is the whole of the Canticle of Canticles a hymn of love : God’s love for His people.

Love is as strong as Death

Here from Wisdom 12

Your strength is the foundation of your justice, and your domination of all things leads you to treat all things with moderation.

As you read the Old Testament, you will find many other passages on God’s love and mercy.

Verbum

 

[DebChris]

God does not change. Our understanding has changed with time and this change in understanding is revealed throughout the Old Testament. Joseph Donders writes in his books about how the faith of Abraham is a rejection of the religious beliefs of the nations that surrounded him. We have a God who desires relationship with us while other religions focus on fear as a motivator for worship.

 

[drafdog]

The scriptures are a collection of stories about how humanity and God relate to one another. As a result you see a continuous growth (change) in how God is perceived by mankind. God doesn’t change but how we understand and relate to God must change as we change. This is an ongoing process of revelation.

Matthew

 

[bobzills]

God does not change.

However, do His teachings change? For example, has the teaching on slavery changed? Or can the teaching on the role of women in Church be changed?

 

[epostle]

God chose to reveal himself gradually, first to the Jews. God had to be very protective of his people, so the Messiah would come, especially with so many enemies trying to wipe them out. We have no idea what the world view was thousands of years ago. God got real tough with the Jews who flirted with pagan religions, some of them sacrificing children to false gods. God killed them because they were bad. Real bad.

Yes, God kills people, directly or indirectly. The Old Testament is full of such stories. God is not a giant marshmallow in the sky and Jesus is not a hippie flower child from the '60’s. God is the Author and Finisher of life and when it’s your turn to die, it will be up to Him whether it is direct or indirect. God is bigger than an erupting volcano. Befriend Him, and He makes you his son or daugher. Or you’re toast. That hasn’t changed.

However, do His teachings change?

Not if you are Catholic.

For example, has the teaching on slavery changed?

The Church has always been against slavery, with plenty of evidence to prove it. The slaves in the bible had rights, they could earn their freedom, pay off debts, families were intact and it had NOTHING to do with racial or chattel slavery of the old American south.

Or can the teaching on the role of women in Church be changed?

The Church does not have the authority to change anything in the Deposit of Faith. Dogmas cannot change, doctrines cannot change but do develop, disciplines and devotions are changable.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

God hasn’t “changed” regarding slavery.
The Old Law of Moses, while quite strict,
made some allowance for customs and for
the hardness of heart of the ancient peoples.
This is why divorce was permitted under the Old Law,
and Jesus says so.
But from the Beginning, before the Fall,
it was never God’s intention for men to serve each other
as servile slaves with no rights.

Contrary to the false opinions of modern liberal bible "“scholars”,
God did on a few O.T. occasions order the Israelites to exterminate the wicked inhabitants of the land of Canaan.
This was because these people were so steeped in sin that there was no hope of their moral recovery. God even told Abraham that it would be hundreds of years before Abraham’s descendants could occupy the land because “the wickedness of the Amorites has not yet reached it’s fullness.”

Jesus is Yahweh, the Lord God, the Eternal Word of the Father.
That’s why we should thoroughly familiarize ourselves with the Four Gospels. Why? Because when we see Jesus acting in person, we are seeing the way God ALWAYS acts but invisibly.
For example, when Jesus is in the Temple at age 12, teaching and questioning the rabbis with the Scriptures, he is doing VISIBLY what the Trinity is constantly doing, but INvisibly, namely trying to teach us the ways of God in our minds and consciences. Jesus was doing that VISIBLY by “listening to them and asking them questions.”

God bless,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[bobzills]

The Church has always been against slavery, with plenty of evidence to prove it. .

How then would you explain the following:
1089 AD
The Synod of Melfi under Pope Urban II imposed slavery on the
wives of priests.
1179 AD
The Third Lateran Council imposed slavery on those helping the
Saracens.
1454 AD
Through the bull Romanus Pontifex, Pope Nicholas V authorises
the king of Portugal to enslave all the Saracen and pagan peoples
his armies may conquer.
1493 AD
Pope Alexander VI authorises the King of Spain to enslave non-
Christians of the Americas who are at war with Christian powers.
1866 AD
The Holy Office in an instruction signed by Pope Pius IX
declares: Slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature,
is not at all contary to the natural and divine law, and there can
be several just titles of slavery, and these are referred to by
approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons …
It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be
sold, bought, exchanged or given".
(See J.F.Maxwell,
The Development of Catholic Doctrine concerning Slavery
World Jurist 11 (1969-70) pp. 147-192 and 291-324. )
and God allowed slavery in the Old Testament. For example,
Leviticus 25:44-46: “Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.”
So the teaching on slavery has changed.

 

[bobzills]

God hasn’t “changed” regarding slavery.
…
But from the Beginning, before the Fall,
it was never God’s intention for men to serve each other
as servile slaves with no rights.

How then do you explain:
Leviticus 25:44-46: “Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.”

 

[NotWorthy]

In regards to the OP, the Bible is about God’s relationship with us.

Just as a father treats a child differently as he grows up, so does God treat us differently as we understand this relationship better.

 

[latinmasslover]

In the Old Testament, He’s a fire throwing warrior for the Hebrews, but then He becomes a Father in the New Testament. I see that He was doing all the fire-throwing out of love and to care for His Chosen people, but did the Israelites just not get it and that’s why God is depicted as such a warrior in the Old Testament?? Why the change? (Now I know God doesn’t change, but I just am a little confused why the ways He is depicted changed.)

Ecclesiastes 3:

All things have their season: and in their times all things pass under heaven. A time to be born, and a time to die…A time to kill, and a time to heal. A time to destroy, and a time to build…A time to embrace, and a time to be far from an embrace…A time of war, and a time of peace."

For everything there’s a time and a place. I’m personally very fond of God as the Warrior, but I love Him dearly as my Father. “A father knows best,” when to punish, when to defend, etc. The Father knows even better than good-old Dad. Amen!

 

[scapularkid8]

How then would you explain the following:
1089 AD
The Synod of Melfi under Pope Urban II imposed slavery on the
wives of priests.
1179 AD
The Third Lateran Council imposed slavery on those helping the
Saracens.
1454 AD
Through the bull Romanus Pontifex, Pope Nicholas V authorises
the king of Portugal to enslave all the Saracen and pagan peoples
his armies may conquer.
1493 AD
Pope Alexander VI authorises the King of Spain to enslave non-
Christians of the Americas who are at war with Christian powers.
1866 AD
The Holy Office in an instruction signed by Pope Pius IX
declares: Slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature,
is not at all contary to the natural and divine law, and there can
be several just titles of slavery, and these are referred to by
approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons …
It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be
sold, bought, exchanged or given".
(See J.F.Maxwell,
The Development of Catholic Doctrine concerning Slavery
World Jurist 11 (1969-70) pp. 147-192 and 291-324. )
and God allowed slavery in the Old Testament. For example,
Leviticus 25:44-46: “Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.”
So the teaching on slavery has changed.

Okay. You can start a new thread with this topic if you want to, but that really has nothing to do with my original question. No thread hijacking please

 

[Abbadon]

Okay. You can start a new thread with this topic if you want to, but that really has nothing to do with my original question. No thread hijacking please

Yea start a new thread because thats one hell of an interesting point… I would like to observe

 

[epostle]

How then would you explain the following:
1089 AD
The Synod of Melfi under Pope Urban II imposed slavery on the
wives of priests.
1179 AD
The Third Lateran Council imposed slavery on those helping the
Saracens.
1454 AD
Through the bull Romanus Pontifex, Pope Nicholas V authorises
the king of Portugal to enslave all the Saracen and pagan peoples
his armies may conquer.
1493 AD
Pope Alexander VI authorises the King of Spain to enslave non-
Christians of the Americas who are at war with Christian powers.
1866 AD
The Holy Office in an instruction signed by Pope Pius IX
declares: Slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature,
is not at all contary to the natural and divine law, and there can
be several just titles of slavery, and these are referred to by
approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons …
It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be
sold, bought, exchanged or given".
(See J.F.Maxwell,
The Development of Catholic Doctrine concerning Slavery
World Jurist 11 (1969-70) pp. 147-192 and 291-324. )
and God allowed slavery in the Old Testament. For example,
Leviticus 25:44-46: “Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.”
So the teaching on slavery has changed.

First, you quote me out of context.
Scond, your list of misinformation comes from www.womenpriests.org, an angry bunch of power hungry women pretending to be Catholics who want to take the Vatican to court for not ordaining women, and “The Development of Catholic Doctrine concerning Slavery World Jurist 11” looks like another anti-Catholic hate book, typically blind to historical context of moral development, and full of misrepresentations, so your post has “0” credibility.

The Truth About the Catholic Church and Slavery (a non-Catholic source)
christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/128/53.0.html

The Church and Slavery
phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat/343

 

[bobzills]

First, you quote me out of context.

How did I quote you out of context? I thought that the original question involved whether or not God can change. And I think that it is easy to show that the teaching on slavery has changed over time. So would this imply that God has changed His mind on whether slavery was acceptable or not. As to the question why this happened, I am not sure about that, except that cultural factors play a role of some sort.
Anyway, something is wrong, because according to definition, God is unchangeable.

 

[juliamajor]

God doesn’t change- how we think about or write about Him does. You can see and evolution of thought on the part of scripture writers as society evolved.The prophets throwing the biggest monkey wrench into just obeying the “laws” was good enough or temple sacrifices adding up to being a good Jew. The thought of an after life isn’t found early on and most of the time it’s only a vague inkling.It grows with time and place until you get into the later books particularly the Deuterocanonicals that are invaluable to the thought processes and theology that formed the Essenes Pharisees and Saducees(recall- Pharisees believed in resurrection while saducees- who only accepted the Torah and nothing else didn’t accept it)Which ultimately effect Christ and the Christian message. So did God Change his mind about and afterlife or did people’s minds change enough to see it God’s way?

 

[NotWorthy]

How did I quote you out of context? I thought that the original question involved whether or not God can change. And I think that it is easy to show that the teaching on slavery has changed over time. So would this imply that God has changed His mind on whether slavery was acceptable or not. As to the question why this happened, I am not sure about that, except that cultural factors play a role of some sort.
Anyway, something is wrong, because according to definition, God is unchangeable.

Maybe it’s not God who has changed but us. Slavery has gone from an accepted way of life (one entered slavery through debt and warfare - I would see slavery as a deterent to warfare, perhaps?) to the abomination it is today, because people were forced into slavery nowadays, maybe.

 

[Abbadon]

Maybe it’s not God who has changed but us. Slavery has gone from an accepted way of life (one entered slavery through debt and warfare - I would see slavery as a deterent to warfare, perhaps?) to the abomination it is today, because people were forced into slavery nowadays, maybe.

But why would god give laws governing slavery if it wasn’t wrong? Why not just say, slavery is wrong, no slavees no rules neede about slaves. We have made that decision in todays society why could god not tell people 2000 years ago?

 

[VociMike]

How then do you explain:
Leviticus 25:44-46: “Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.”

I dunno. How do you explain it? If I came to you and asked you about God and slavery, what would you tell me?

And please don’t include anything about the Catholic Church in your answer, since you have cited pre-Catholic-Church scripture.

 

[bobzills]

I dunno. How do you explain it? If I came to you and asked you about God and slavery, what would you tell me?

And please don’t include anything about the Catholic Church in your answer, since you have cited pre-Catholic-Church scripture.

I am interested to discuss this topic, however, according to post #12, it looks like the OP thinks that this would be a “hijacking” of the thread to talk about it. I thought this question would be relevant, since this teaching has apparently changed significantly. In any case, I am willing to discuss this topic on another thread, since the OP has said he doesn’t want us to discuss it here.