Why did you choose your Belief???

[ben_dy]

stillsmallvoice:

Hi all!

I’m a Jew by birth (that was 42+ years ago) & an orthodox Jew by conviction for the past 19 years.

What am I doing here? Beyond the fact that I’ve always been interested in other faiths (this goes back before my movie theater epiphany), I think that Roman Catholicism & orthodox Judaism (despite our rather obvious differences) have much in common. Our views on many ethical & moral issues are similar. But beyond that, ours are faiths with rules, with authority & structure & with discipline. Ours are not make-it-up-as-you-go-along faiths & never have been (I suppose Protestantism & Reform Judaism are like that); i.e. we’re not cafeteria faiths. Rather than mold the faith to fit the individual, I think that we believe that it is the individual who must mold him/herself to fit the faith. The late former Chief Rabbi of the British Commonwealth, Lord Immanuel Jakobovitz (of blessed memory) once said that a faith which demands nothing is worth nothing. To be an orthodox Jew demands a great deal & I have learned that to be a Roman Catholic is similarly very demanding.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv

Very well put! I lived for a time amongst VERY Orthodox Jews and, as a VERY Orthodox Catholic, I found the ‘lifestyle’ similarities fascinating. There’s that old saying - “to be any more Catholic, you’d have to be Jewish” - that has some truth in it. There is something almost distasteful to me about Reform Judaism and you are correct in calling it a ‘cafeteria’ movement just as many ‘American’ Catholics offer up the same dishes.

Whenever I’ve been asked “what would you be if you could not be Catholic?” I always answer “Jewish! And likely Chassidic!”

How is life in Israel now? My first trip there was in the 1950’s and last was in 1995 or 1996 - never a big fan of Tel Aviv, but how can you not love Jerusalem? The whole area in and around Israel is an archeologists dream come true - and for a Christian to celebrate Christmas in Bethlehem is an indescribable joy! “L’shana ha’ba-ah b’Yerushalayim”? - what’s wrong with now?

One of the most interesting - and heated - debates I have ever heard came from Orthodox Jews arguing if the state of Israel should, or should not, exist - some interesting theology there! I was also fortunate enough to sit in on some Talmudic discussions - in English! Folks like yourself, likely, fairly new to Hebrew AND Talmud taking baby steps with masters!

Would really love to hear more of your life story!

 

[ben_dy]

Warrior4Truth:

Lol…opps, I just noticed that you were a senior member Stillsmallvoice, and I am a regular member…so mabye you should be welcoming me unstead of me welcoming you to the forum…
Well I will change that now, WELCOME TO THE THREAD!!!

Just keep posting messages and you’ll be a ‘senior’ soon! I was somewhat offended when I first came aboard here that, at 67 at the time, I was NOT a “Senior Member”! I’m a Medicare patient! Well past the AARP joining years! What made all these other folks ‘senior’ when I had a good 40 years on most of them… and then one magic day (around 150 messages posted, I think) I suddenly found myself where I belong - in the ‘senior’ group!

 

[smelton]

ahimsaman72:

I read the first few chapters just about a month ago (I think). It was good, but I really was turned off either by his writing style or the way he presented it. I also recently read (again, about a month ago) the book, “A Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. That was a book that made my ears stand up. It really brought me back to a basic belief in Jesus Christ and the evidence which supports the traditional beliefs about Him.

I suppose my problem is that sometimes I don’t let my heart catch up to my mind. My mind will wade through the logical conclusions and everything is great, but then I try to pray or go to church or read my Bible and my heart doesn’t “feel” anything. I’m looking for a sonic boom or something to validate my thoughts. I’m searching for an “experience” of some sort - that proverbial “A-HA!” moment.

I realize this is superficial and faith is more than just “feeling”, it’s much deeper and meaningful. That’s simply where I am in my spiritual life (or lack of it). It could be that I’m going through a sort of calisthenics exercise for my mind and my heart is not in the right place (which is really pretty childish I admit).

Thank you for your recommendation and thoughts.

Peace…

Sounds like to me you are simply an intellect. I understand the head and heart issue. I’m in the same boat most of the time. I dont’ think its a faith issue though. I think its good that you question God and church. Just be ready for the answer when he gives it. I usually push my head forward and hope that my heart follows, it generally does.

 

[ahimsaman72]

smelton:

Sounds like to me you are simply an intellect. I understand the head and heart issue. I’m in the same boat most of the time. I dont’ think its a faith issue though. I think its good that you question God and church. Just be ready for the answer when he gives it. I usually push my head forward and hope that my heart follows, it generally does.

I wish I knew what it was that was holding me back spiritually. I have the desire to be more involved and practice deeper Christianity, but maybe that desire isn’t strong enough. I don’t know. Maybe I’m trying too hard to make it all make sense and work.

I question everything. I used to take many things for granted, but not anymore. There are beliefs that I cannot agree with in traditional Christianity and it has driven a wedge between me and the church. I find myself rebelling though I wish to be united.

Thank you again for your thoughts.

God be with you…

 

[Mickey]

ahimsaman72:

I wish I knew what it was that was holding me back spiritually. I have the desire to be more involved and practice deeper Christianity, but maybe that desire isn’t strong enough. I don’t know. Maybe I’m trying too hard to make it all make sense and work.

**At this point the zealous man looks inward, and what do you think he finds there? Ceaseless wandering of thoughts, constant onslaughts from the passions, hardness and coldness of heart, obstinacy and disobedience, desire to do everything according to his own will. In a word, he finds everything within himself in a very bad state. And seeing this, his zeal is inflamed, and he now directs strenuous efforts to the development of his inner life, to controlling his thoughts and the dispositions of his heart. From directions on inner spiritual life he discovers the necessity of paying attention to oneself, of watching over the movements of the heart. In order not to admit to anything bad, it is necessary to preserve the remembrance of God. And so he sets to work to achieve this remembrance. But his thoughts can no more be arrested than the wind; his bad feelings and worthless impulses can no more be evaded than the stench of a corpse; his mind, like a wet and frozen bird, cannot rise to the remembrance of God. What is to be done? Be patient, they say, and go on working. Patience and labor are exercised, but all within remains the same. At last someone of experience is found, who explains that all that is inwardly is in disorder because the forces within are divided: mind and heart each go their own way. Mind and heart must be united; then wandering of thoughts will cease, and you will gain a rudder to steer the ship of your soul, a lever by which to set in movement all your inner world. But how can one unite mind and heart? Acquire the habit of praying these words with the mind in the heart, ‘Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon me’. **And this prayer, when you learn to perform it properly, or rather when it becomes grafted to the heart, will lead you to the end which you desire. It will unite your mind with your heart, it will cut off your wandering thoughts, and give you the power to govern the movements of your soul.

St Theophan the Recluse

 

[Della]

ahimsaman72:

I read the first few chapters just about a month ago (I think). It was good, but I really was turned off either by his writing style or the way he presented it. I also recently read (again, about a month ago) the book, “A Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. That was a book that made my ears stand up. It really brought me back to a basic belief in Jesus Christ and the evidence which supports the traditional beliefs about Him.

I suppose my problem is that sometimes I don’t let my heart catch up to my mind. My mind will wade through the logical conclusions and everything is great, but then I try to pray or go to church or read my Bible and my heart doesn’t “feel” anything. I’m looking for a sonic boom or something to validate my thoughts. I’m searching for an “experience” of some sort - that proverbial “A-HA!” moment.

I realize this is superficial and faith is more than just “feeling”, it’s much deeper and meaningful. That’s simply where I am in my spiritual life (or lack of it). It could be that I’m going through a sort of calisthenics exercise for my mind and my heart is not in the right place (which is really pretty childish I admit).

Thank you for your recommendation and thoughts.

Peace…

The book you ought to read is: The Catholic Church and Conversion by G. K. Chesterton. He is foundational in apologetics having influenced people like C. S. Lewis, Fulton Sheen, Frank Sheed, etc. I think you will find him witty, brilliant, approachable, and filled with insight and wisdom.

 

[ahimsaman72]

**At this point the zealous man looks inward, and what do you think he finds there? Ceaseless wandering of thoughts, constant onslaughts from the passions, hardness and coldness of heart, obstinacy and disobedience, desire to do everything according to his own will. In a word, he finds everything within himself in a very bad state. And seeing this, his zeal is inflamed, and he now directs strenuous efforts to the development of his inner life, to controlling his thoughts and the dispositions of his heart. From directions on inner spiritual life he discovers the necessity of paying attention to oneself, of watching over the movements of the heart. In order not to admit to anything bad, it is necessary to preserve the remembrance of God. And so he sets to work to achieve this remembrance. But his thoughts can no more be arrested than the wind; his bad feelings and worthless impulses can no more be evaded than the stench of a corpse; his mind, like a wet and frozen bird, cannot rise to the remembrance of God. What is to be done? Be patient, they say, and go on working. Patience and labor are exercised, but all within remains the same. At last someone of experience is found, who explains that all that is inwardly is in disorder because the forces within are divided: mind and heart each go their own way. Mind and heart must be united; then wandering of thoughts will cease, and you will gain a rudder to steer the ship of your soul, a lever by which to set in movement all your inner world. But how can one unite mind and heart? Acquire the habit of praying these words with the mind in the heart, ‘Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon me’. **And this prayer, when you learn to perform it properly, or rather when it becomes grafted to the heart, will lead you to the end which you desire. It will unite your mind with your heart, it will cut off your wandering thoughts, and give you the power to govern the movements of your soul.

St Theophan the Recluse

My dear friend - you have been so gracious and helpful. This is deep, applicable and wise. Thank you for sharing this with me. I will be acquiring the habit of praying these words and seeking the wisdom of God.

His words ring so true and it was so apparent after reading it that he was speaking directly to me . What would I do without my good friend Mickey? My humblest appreciation to my brother.

Peace…

 

[Mickey]

ahimsaman72:

My dear friend - you have been so gracious and helpful. This is deep, applicable and wise. Thank you for sharing this with me. I will be acquiring the habit of praying these words and seeking the wisdom of God.

His words ring so true and it was so apparent after reading it that he was speaking directly to me . What would I do without my good friend Mickey? My humblest appreciation to my brother.

Peace…

I’m so glad that this helps you Ahim! I cannot begin to tell you how applicable some of St Theophan’s writings have been to my own journey.

Blessings,
Mickey

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!
mark a:
I don’t know much about Judaism. Many Catholics claim that Catholicism and Judaism have many similarities. I never knew what to make of that claim, but your story bears this out.

Thanks for sharing and educating.

You’re welcome! http://www.jewfaq.org/toc.htm is a pretty good site.

ben_dy:

There’s that old saying - “to be any more Catholic, you’d have to be Jewish” - that has some truth in it.

ben_dy:

There is something almost distasteful to me about Reform Judaism and you are correct in calling it a ‘cafeteria’ movement just as many ‘American’ Catholics offer up the same dishes.

“Reform” Judaism is to real Judaism as a Twinkie :nope: is to real pastry :yup: , i.e. it has a vague resemblance to the real thing but that’s about it.

ben_dy:

The whole area in and around Israel is an archeologists dream come true - and for a Christian to celebrate Christmas in Bethlehem is an indescribable joy!

And we have three Christmases here: Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox & Armenian, each community (tinyurl.com/2rs8q & tinyurl.com/ahxqw) with its own colorful rites & pageantries.

(cont.)

 

[stillsmallvoice]

(cont.)

One of the very nicest things about living here (as I have for the past 19) is that here, the Bible isn’t just scriptures, it’s a travel guide. Being able to visit so many of the places (http://www.gemsinisrael.com/biblical.html) mentioned/featured in the Bible really makes the Bible come alive. It’s exciting enough for me (I’m 42) but it’s really neat for children & adds a whole dimension to teaching them the Bible, that you just can’t get anywhere else. This past summer & fall, we went to the Ein Gedi Nature Reserve (http://tinyurl.com/7rjpa) on the western (Israeli) shore of the Dead Sea. The lush oasis at Ein Gedi (sometimes spelled En-Gedi) is mentioned 6 times in the Bible. As we hiked through the lush vegetation & swam in the natural pools (letting a waterfall of cold water come pouring over your head is wonderful on a hot afternoon!), I told Da Boyz (5 & almost 9) how David hid from King Saul in Ein-Gedi (I Samuel 23-24). This past summer, we met my uncle (from the US) in Tel Aviv & went to Old Jaffa (http://www.tel-aviv.gov.il/English/Tourism/Sites/Jaffa.htm). As we walked along the port (passing Simon the Tanner’s house), looking at the boats, I told Da Boyz that we were at the very spot where Jonah boarded a boat & tried to “run away from God.” We’ve been through the Elah Valley several times. The Elah Valley is where David duked it out with Goliath. The road passes right between Socoh & Azekah (I Samuel 17:1) & goes over the very brook (it’s the only one in the area) from which David selected the stones for his sling. We stopped once & got out. I explained where we were to Da Boyz & pointed to the brook & said, “See? This is the brook where David got his stones.” Our older boy got all excited & said, pointing, “Oh Daddy, maybe it was one of those!” I love being able to do stuff like this!

ben_dy:

One of the most interesting - and heated - debates I have ever heard came from Orthodox Jews arguing if the state of Israel should, or should not, exist - some interesting theology there!

Oh, that. See my posts on this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=438876&highlight=Karta#post438876

ben_dy:

Would really love to hear more of your life story!

My life story?!

:yawn:…

Be well!

ssv

 

[ahimsaman72]

Della:

The book you ought to read is: The Catholic Church and Conversion by G. K. Chesterton. He is foundational in apologetics having influenced people like C. S. Lewis, Fulton Sheen, Frank Sheed, etc. I think you will find him witty, brilliant, approachable, and filled with insight and wisdom.

Thank you Della. I just saved a copy of that book to my computer and will be reading it. God be with you…

Peace…

 

[Della]

ahimsaman72:

Thank you Della. I just saved a copy of that book to my computer and will be reading it. God be with you…

Peace…

You’re quite welcome. I will pray for you----please pray for me!

 

[ahimsaman72]

Della:

You’re quite welcome. I will pray for you----please pray for me!

Sounds like a good deal to me! Yes, of course I will. If you don’t watch it, you’ll become friends with me and you will have a lot of explaining to do - .

Peace…

 

[smelton]

ahimsaman72:

I wish I knew what it was that was holding me back spiritually. I have the desire to be more involved and practice deeper Christianity, but maybe that desire isn’t strong enough. I don’t know. Maybe I’m trying too hard to make it all make sense and work.

I question everything. I used to take many things for granted, but not anymore. There are beliefs that I cannot agree with in traditional Christianity and it has driven a wedge between me and the church. I find myself rebelling though I wish to be united.

Thank you again for your thoughts.

God be with you…

I think the key is not letting a wedge be driven between you and Christ. As a protestant I believe that every church is flawed because it consists of humans. I’m a sinner, big time and I’m a part of the church. I would tell you not to worry about the Church at first, worry about your relationship with Christ.

 

[kayla]

I was born and raised Catholic…fell away while in college…called back by the power of the Holy Spirit.
So happy to be back in one Holy Catholic Apostolic Chruch where the Truth will set you free:bounce:

 

[ahimsaman72]

smelton:

I think the key is not letting a wedge be driven between you and Christ. As a protestant I believe that every church is flawed because it consists of humans. I’m a sinner, big time and I’m a part of the church. I would tell you not to worry about the Church at first, worry about your relationship with Christ.

This is very true. I have let issues divide me with the church and I suppose I have rebelled against Christ because of those dividing issues. Thanks for your wisdom.

Peace…

 

[catsrus]

I did not choose The Catholic Church, She chose me.
My soul was longing for God and The Holy Spirit opened my eyes, my heart, my mind and animated my feet.
I am Catholic because this is where I was led.
Praise be to God.

 

[Reuben_J]

I’ve never had a chance to ‘choose’ my religion as I was baptized Catholic as a child. Sent to Catholic school and lived a rather intense religious life during those childhood years. Attended mass nearly on a daily basis. Was an alter server and took care of the sacristy.

As I grew up, went to college and then started to earn my own living, the newfound freedom almost led me away from the Lord. Mass was scarce and nearly none existence except perhaps for Christmas and Good Friday. And for me at that point in time, how life hurt! That last for quite a number of years until one day my wife successfully persuaded me to attend a Life in the Spirit Seminar.

That’s the turning point of my life. The Lord touched me and I was the returning prodigal son. The lost had been found! I was renewed in my faith in a special love affair with the Lord, and have never turned my back on Him ever since.

Did I choose my belief? I don’t know. What I do know is that the Lord chose me because He loves me first. Through that life in the Lord, I am privileged to tangibly experience Jesus as the Good Shepherd and the Lord of my life. This does not mean that everything is a bed of roses nor that I am perfect but there is that unmistakably feeling that the Lord is there to heal and to affirm in that journey along the tortuous narrow road. And I know now, that this life is being offered to those who seek it anytime.

Praise the Lord.

 

[melbourne_guy]

My parish preist is the most compassionate and loving man i have ever met in my life, he deserves to be pope after benedict.

 

[ben_dy]

Reuben J:

I’ve never had a chance to ‘choose’ my religion as I was baptized Catholic as a child. Sent to Catholic school and lived a rather intense religious life during those childhood years. Attended mass nearly on a daily basis. Was an alter server and took care of the sacristy.

As I grew up, went to college and then started to earn my own living, the newfound freedom almost led me away from the Lord. Mass was scarce and nearly none existence except perhaps for Christmas and Good Friday. And for me at that point in time, how life hurt! That last for quite a number of years until one day my wife successfully persuaded me to attend a Life in the Spirit Seminar.

That’s the turning point of my life. The Lord touched me and I was the returning prodigal son. The lost had been found! I was renewed in my faith in a special love affair with the Lord, and have never turned my back on Him ever since.

Did I choose my belief? I don’t know. What I do know is that the Lord chose me because He loves me first. Through that life in the Lord, I am privileged to tangibly experience Jesus as the Good Shepherd and the Lord of my life. This does not mean that everything is a bed of roses nor that I am perfect but there is that unmistakably feeling that the Lord is there to heal and to affirm in that journey along the tortuous narrow road. And I know now, that this life is being offered to those who seek it anytime.

Praise the Lord.

Thank you - Praise the Lord, indeed! And may God grant you - grant us all - the grace to appreciate what you have lived and shared.