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DictatorCzar
Guest
I’m confused why didn’t the apostles pray to Mary.
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Wesrock
Guest
Because Mary was alive.
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Vico
Guest
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1ke
Guest
Because she was alive and living with St John.
If Mary was alive and came into contact with them , the Apostles may have asked Mary to pray for them . That’s all prayer in this context means .
We don’t have to wait for someone to be in Heaven to pray to them .
I pray to people on earth to pray for me .
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dochawk
Guest
What gives you the idea they didn’t?
Of course, before she died, they would have asked her for her own prayers (which is what a prayer to her is) in person or possibly by letter.
hawk
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Saxum
Guest
We know Mary encouraged and supported them. She appeared in Spain to St James in order to encourage him in his efforts to convert the Spaniards.
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DictatorCzar
Guest
We must know what really happened. If the apostles did pray to her, then the Catholics win, if the they didn’t well. Oof
LaughingBoy1503
Well-known member
How old are you, pray tell?
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Thom18
Guest
Well, if they ever asked her to pray for them, they essentially did.
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edward_george1
Guest
I reject your premise. You don’t know that they didn’t pray to Mary–either to ask her prayers while she was still alive and in their presence, or else to ask her intercession once she had been assumed to heaven.
I also reject the notion that “the Catholics win” if the Apostles did pray to Mary, and that “oof,” as you say, if they didn’t. There are plenty of reasons to infer that they would have, given the fact that Marian devotion is something that’s been around since the very earliest days of the Church. The ancient hymn Sub Tuum Praesidium invoking Mary’s intercession can be reliably dated to the 3rd century, so not too far removed from the period of the Apostolic Fathers. If there had been some reason to object to asking Mary’s intercession, then people would have been up in arms. We’d have a record of the dispute. Plus, we have hundreds of citations of the Church Fathers, some of whom learned at the feet of the Apostles and their immediate disciples, encouraging people to ask the saints to intercede.
So my question to you is this: why do you think the Apostles didn’t pray to Mary? And what difference does it make? It’s not quite so simple as “If they did this, ‘the Catholics win,’ if they didn’t, ‘oof.’” There’s a lot more witnesses to the practice and to its acceptance, and the matter hinges on a lot more than just whether or not somebody wrote down that this Apostle or that asked Mary to pray for him. The truth of the faith is much more than this one fact or lack thereof.
-Fr ACEGC
I also reject the notion that “the Catholics win” if the Apostles did pray to Mary, and that “oof,” as you say, if they didn’t. There are plenty of reasons to infer that they would have, given the fact that Marian devotion is something that’s been around since the very earliest days of the Church. The ancient hymn Sub Tuum Praesidium invoking Mary’s intercession can be reliably dated to the 3rd century, so not too far removed from the period of the Apostolic Fathers. If there had been some reason to object to asking Mary’s intercession, then people would have been up in arms. We’d have a record of the dispute. Plus, we have hundreds of citations of the Church Fathers, some of whom learned at the feet of the Apostles and their immediate disciples, encouraging people to ask the saints to intercede.
So my question to you is this: why do you think the Apostles didn’t pray to Mary? And what difference does it make? It’s not quite so simple as “If they did this, ‘the Catholics win,’ if they didn’t, ‘oof.’” There’s a lot more witnesses to the practice and to its acceptance, and the matter hinges on a lot more than just whether or not somebody wrote down that this Apostle or that asked Mary to pray for him. The truth of the faith is much more than this one fact or lack thereof.
-Fr ACEGC
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CapitalistCatholic
Guest
This is a very childish thing to assume. I can say the same thing for plenty of other things.
“If the apostles celebrated Christmas, then Catholics win. If they didn’t well. Oof.”
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Brendan
Guest
What makes you think that they didn’t?
Consider what the verb ‘to pray’ means. It’s root work is Latin, precare, to ask, to implore. Nothing more
Look at Shakespear’s Hamlet, Act I, Scn II when Queen Gertrude says to her son, Hamlet " I pray thee, stay with us, go not to Whittenburg"
She was praying to her son, Hamlet. She was asking him not to go to Whittenburg.
Likewise, I am positive that the Apostles, in their various interactions with Mary, asked her something.
In other words, they prayed to her.
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Todd_Easton
Guest
John’s gospel is thought to have been written long after the other gospels, long after the deaths of the other apostles and Jesus’ mother, Mary. At the end of his gospel, John says, “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.” (John 21:25) With so much material to choose from, why do you suppose he chose to include Jesus’ words from the cross to his mother and his beloved disciple, “Woman, behold, your son! … Behold, your mother!” (John 19:26) ?
Was the gospel writer simply trying to show that Jesus cared about his mother and wanted to make sure she was cared for after his death, like any other dying man might, or was the gospel writer trying to reaffirm to the early Christians of his day that Mary has an ongoing, maternal relationship with every beloved disciple of Christ? Such an ongoing, maternal relationship is also suggested in John’s Revelation, chapter 12, where a woman “in heaven,” who “brought forth a male child” who “was caught up to God and to his throne” and “who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron,” is said to have other offspring, namely, “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.” (Revelation 12)
If it was the intent of the gospel writer, and I think it was, to reaffirm to the early Christians of his day of Mary’s ongoing, material relationship with them from heaven, then it makes sense to me that they were praying to her and asking for her Christian and motherly intercession on their behalf.
Was the gospel writer simply trying to show that Jesus cared about his mother and wanted to make sure she was cared for after his death, like any other dying man might, or was the gospel writer trying to reaffirm to the early Christians of his day that Mary has an ongoing, maternal relationship with every beloved disciple of Christ? Such an ongoing, maternal relationship is also suggested in John’s Revelation, chapter 12, where a woman “in heaven,” who “brought forth a male child” who “was caught up to God and to his throne” and “who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron,” is said to have other offspring, namely, “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.” (Revelation 12)
If it was the intent of the gospel writer, and I think it was, to reaffirm to the early Christians of his day of Mary’s ongoing, material relationship with them from heaven, then it makes sense to me that they were praying to her and asking for her Christian and motherly intercession on their behalf.
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