Why didn’t the mutual lifting of the 1054 Great Schism excommunications automatically mean reunification?

[dzheremi]

What on earth is with certain posters here straining at gnats? Nothing better to do, gentlemen?

Yes, those two posters you referenced did mention the SSPX…and many Catholic posters talk about Orthodox churches in ways that Orthodox posters find less than genial. Tis the nature of confessional discussions. If I had a dime for every time I was accused of “anti-Catholicism” by people here or elsewhere, I could buy my own fabulous Papal tiara… All of that stuff is in the eye of the beholder, so I take Mr. Armstrong’s comments are produced in this thread with a rather large grain of salt. Other people’s offense is no reason to stop sticking by your convictions, but to the extent that Catholic posters (not all, but some) argue at Orthodox posters as though we have no right to our own ecclesiologies or theologies is just a gigantic turn-off when it comes to further discussions with you folks, honestly. I prefer to think of myself as anti-B.S. more than anything, as hopefully my corrections against certain bad Christian sub-apologetics bear out (cf. the once-parroted Walid Shoebat material that has thankfully gone the way of the dodo). But it’s hard to be anti-baloney here sometimes, and Randy can certainly sympathize with in his own mind…

 

[spina1953]

There is nothing great about Randy’s post. His article has been refuted, particularly the list of heretical patriarchs and he continues to back it. The amount of time spent in heresy by ‘the east’ has been refuted but he continues to spread it.

In addition he makes the mistake of treating the east as a homogenous whole and a monolith. He refers to the heretics of ‘the east’. Eutyches is an example of the heresy of ‘the east’. Apolinarius is an example of the heresy of ‘the east’. So he takes every individual heretic from every church in the east and uses them against the church in ‘the east’.

The fact that heresies arose in the east and not the west at this time frame is simply an expression of the fact that theological thought was developed in the eastern churches.

jimmy: the reason I wrote great post; about Randy’s post is that one can learn something new every day. it was not about whether I agreed with him, it was just about learning something. Thanks

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

And the demonstration in defense of honorius has never been convincing. Your list has been shown to be erroneous but you continue to defend it. All said and done, Rome has had just as many heretical bishops as Alexandria, and only a few less than the other sees of the east.

As you acknowledged later, this really isn’t true.

Honorius was guilty of heresy. No other bishop of Rome has been.

(I am NOT saying that proves anything; it doesn’t. But there’s a reason Rome had the reputation that it did before the East-West Schism solidified.)

I will admit, though, that reading this thread has made me cringe. I appreciate the zeal of my Catholic brethren, and I myself - obviously - believe in the papal dogmas, but YEESH… some of my dear Catholic brethren have much to learn about Orthodoxy. Bellowing triumphalistically about St. Peter’s headship (which Orthodox theology understands and has a perfectly consistent interpretation of) and firing Church Father quotes at Orthodox Christians will never be convincing.

If we Catholics want full communion restored with the Orthodox churches, what’s needed is humility, especially from the laity and clergy. These days - surprise, surprise - Rome sets a very good example that we just don’t yet follow. When we can demonstrate true humility and collegiality, maybe then the truly collegial, patristic interpretation of the papal dogmas will be credible.

It starts with humility, patience, and other such virtues.

 

[jimmy]

As you acknowledged later, this really isn’t true.

Honorius was guilty of heresy. No other bishop of Rome has been.

(I am NOT saying that proves anything; it doesn’t. But there’s a reason Rome had the reputation that it did before the East-West Schism solidified.)

I will admit, though, that reading this thread has made me cringe. I appreciate the zeal of my Catholic brethren, and I myself - obviously - believe in the papal dogmas, but YEESH… some of my dear Catholic brethren have much to learn about Orthodoxy. Bellowing triumphalistically about St. Peter’s headship (which Orthodox theology understands and has a perfectly consistent interpretation of) and firing Church Father quotes at Orthodox Christians will never be convincing.

If we Catholics want full communion restored with the Orthodox churches, what’s needed is humility, especially from the laity and clergy. These days - surprise, surprise - Rome sets a very good example that we just don’t yet follow. When we can demonstrate true humility and collegiality, maybe then the truly collegial, patristic interpretation of the papal dogmas will be credible.

It starts with humility, patience, and other such virtues.

What did I recognize later to be false about what you quoted? I still recognize the quote you have as true.

The triumphalistic and sanctimonious attitude of some posters is the only reason I post on these threads. I would just observe if it wasn’t for all the arrogance. I think they are offensive and have to respond.

 

[Peter_J]

Thanks for posting that, Randy. We may have disagreed many times (and probably will disagree many times in the future) but I think we agree on something very important…

One of the biggest problems with forums like this (to my mind anyhow) is not just that there are people who are unreasonably anti-RC, or anti-EO, or anti-OO, etc. but that other (well meaning) posters spend way too much time engaging them in futile conversations. (I won’t name names, but I suspect that some of those well-meaning people will read this and say “Do you mean me?” )

 

[dzheremi]

…Do you mean everyone but me, Peter J?

Aha! Gotcha!

 

[Nine_Two]

The problem is the futile discussions always come out of reasonable questions.

Although I took issue with the tone of the post itself, and the user’s refusal to accept an answer, the question that titles this thread really is a very valid, reasonable, and in the end good, question. Had the answers given been accepted it certainly would have been a good place for the OP to begin to understand Orthodoxy and the East/West schism.

 

[Peter_J]

…Do you mean everyone but me, Peter J?

Aha! Gotcha!

The problem is the futile discussions always come out of reasonable questions.

Although I took issue with the tone of the post itself, and the user’s refusal to accept an answer, the question that titles this thread really is a very valid, reasonable, and in the end good, question. Had the answers given been accepted it certainly would have been a good place for the OP to begin to understand Orthodoxy and the East/West schism.

Which just goes to show what I was saying.

As someone who’s spent a good amount of time on an Orthodox forum (I admit I’ve not spend much time on any Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, etc forums) I likewise have found that sometimes an Orthodox person is just unreasonably anti-Catholic. In either case, it’s pointless to just keep trying logic on and on, and on and on, and on and on. At a certain point, you just have to call it quits. (Of course, it takes a certain amount of time to come to that conclusion – I’m not suggesting that people should make rash judgments about someone else when he/she could just be “having a bad day”.)

 

[Peter_J]

P.S. I can’t leave this subject without mentioning the “Ignore” feature on this forum (in case anyone reading this isn’t already familiar with it). Although I admit I don’t use it myself – for me, the deciding whether to read or skip (or skim) a post is more complex than just who wrote it.

 

[Nine_Two]

Which just goes to show what I was saying.

As someone who’s spent a good amount of time on an Orthodox forum (I admit I’ve not spend much time on any Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, etc forums) I likewise have found that sometimes an Orthodox person is just unreasonably anti-Catholic. In either case, it’s pointless to just keep trying logic on and on, and on and on, and on and on. At a certain point, you just have to call it quits. (Of course, it takes a certain amount of time to come to that conclusion – I’m not suggesting that people should make rash judgments about someone else when he/she could just be “having a bad day”.)

I don’t disagree with you. Yes, it is probably wiser to stop trying when coming up against the anti-Orthodox positions we see in this thread. But it can also be very difficult.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Thanks for posting that, Randy. We may have disagreed many times (and probably will disagree many times in the future) but I think we agree on something very important…

My pleasure. I do have a final question for you…Dave Armstrong wrote:

1. I have not sought out Orthodox to debate since around 2000. The reason for that is 1) one usually runs into anti-Catholic Orthodox online; hence #2 applies, and 2) if Orthodox are ecumenical, I am much more interested (as recent popes are) in finding common ground, than in dredging up the same old disagreements. I’m not sure what the percentage is among Orthodox of anti-Catholics and ecumenical ones. I’d love to find out, if anyone knows.

You’ve hung out with the Eastern crowd here far longer than I have highprayer. Do you find the folks participating in these threads to be ecumenically-minded, anti-Catholic separatists or generally balanced? And how does this tiny sampling compare with the attitudes of the larger EO population?

Thanks.

 

[Nine_Two]

anti-Catholic separatists

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

What did I recognize later to be false about what you quoted? I still recognize the quote you have as true.

Whoops, I didn’t read carefully enough. I stand corrected.

I thought you were claiming there have been multiple heretical bishops of Rome, but I see now that you weren’t. By “no more than Alexandria” you really did just mean one.

I don’t disagree with you. Yes, it is probably wiser to stop trying when coming up against the anti-Orthodox positions we see in this thread. But it can also be very difficult.

I don’t blame you. Frankly, I cringe whenever I see Catholics basically say, “St. Peter; therefore, I WIN.” I mean, really, do they honestly think you haven’t heard that before? Or that you’ve never read Matthew 16? I’ll say it again: yeesh!

 

[Peter_J]

I don’t blame you. Frankly, I cringe whenever I see Catholics basically say, “St. Peter; therefore, I WIN.” I mean, really, do they honestly think you haven’t heard that before? Or that you’ve never read Matthew 16? I’ll say it again: yeesh!

I think each group (Catholics, Orthodox, etc) tend to be at their worst when they’re on their home turf. (Sorry that doesn’t rhyme.)

 

[Nine_Two]

I think each group (Catholics, Orthodox, etc) tend to be at their worst when they’re on their home turf. (Sorry that doesn’t rhyme.)

Actually I agree with you there. Which is part of the reason I’m mostly here. I go to OCnet occasionally, but not very often.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I agree, I don’t post but have read the dialogue on searched topics. Only difference I see is you guys work out your thinking more in union. The Catholics rely more on the doctrine you guys would argue isn’t needed, at least to some extent that’s noticed.

This brings another point up which is the interaction in the community of the Church, inside the Church which permeates out. Its also a moral point which I see Pope Francis does not waver from. Eastern Church is a blessing overlooked in this important way.

We need the Doctrine though, it too is a blessing.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I think each group (Catholics, Orthodox, etc) tend to be at their worst when they’re on their home turf. (Sorry that doesn’t rhyme.)

Heh, it’s slant rhyme, though.

And yeah, I suppose you’re right. I have read some pretty arrogant things on at least one Orthodox forum. That’s why I mainly stick around here. It’s far more spiritually healthy for me to be mortified at my fellow Catholics’ behavior, since that constantly inculcates in me a continued recognition of the need for humility, than for me to read things which would instill in me haughtiness against similar triumphalism directed against my church (or even against some of their fellow Orthodox on some matters…).

I will say that I see far less historical ignorance coming from Orthodox Christians, though. so kudos to them!

The great exception in my experience are most Eastern/Oriental Catholics around here, like Marduk. Marduk and I also think alike; I suspect our brains work in similar ways.

 

[Nine_Two]

Heh, it’s slant rhyme, though.

And yeah, I suppose you’re right. I have read some pretty arrogant things on at least one Orthodox forum. That’s why I mainly stick around here. It’s far more spiritually healthy for me to be mortified at my fellow Catholics’ behavior, since that constantly inculcates in me a continued recognition of the need for humility, than for me to read things which would instill in me haughtiness against similar triumphalism directed against my church (or even against some of their fellow Orthodox on some matters…).

I will say that I see far less historical ignorance coming from Orthodox Christians, though. so kudos to them!

The great exception in my experience are most Eastern/Oriental Catholics around here, like Marduk. Marduk and I also think alike; I suspect our brains work in similar ways.

Funny, I come here for the exact opposite reason. I’d get caught up in Orthodox triumphalism. Coming here and having to contend with that attitude reminds me I need to stay humble.

 

[dzheremi]

Yup, same here. I don’t like the echo chamber effect of much of the “Ortho-net”. Granted, as an OO I don’t get to bask in much of that anyway, but still…it’s good to be around other people, and consider their opinions and such. Keeps you on your mettle or whatever, and is just healthy all around (≠ any or all conversations are healthy, of course).

 

[Peter_J]

Funny, I come here for the exact opposite reason. I’d get caught up in Orthodox triumphalism. Coming here and having to contend with that attitude reminds me I need to stay humble.

Participating on an Orthodox forum reminds me (among other things) that Catholics are not the only ones who can say “We don’t recognize your sacraments” and “You cannot receive communion in our churches.”