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HeWillProvide
Guest
Or, what is the point of having planet earth? Why not create us and place us in Heaven immediately to be with Him?
Why didn't God just put us in Heaven with Him instead of living on earth first?
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FCEGM
Guest
It seems to me that the question to ask instead is why God’s Beauty and Goodness would limit Him to creating only purely spiritual beings (the angels), and not also beings of flesh and spirit? The New Age spirituality is a temptation against the goodness of material creation, while atheism is a temptation against the spiritual. Catholicism - as does its forebear, Judaism - reflects the goodness of both the spiritual and material creation.
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Eucharisted
Guest
God created us body and soul so we could enjoy God physically and spiritually.
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PJM
Guest
Wonderful question friend
God certainly could have done this, so why didn’t He?
It has to do with What and Who “God” is.
Simply put “God is all and only everything Good – Perfectly.”
OK, and?
And this means that among the long list of “Good things” that God is and must be are the attributes of perfect Fairness and Perfect Justice.
In reviewing the wonderful story of Creation found in the Book of Genesis, Chapter One, we notice two very interesting things.
In verse 26 we are told that “God Created man in His own image and likeness” [More on this in just a bit.]
In verse 31 we are told that man was Created on the sixth and Final Day of Creation.
Before we discuss why this is, let’s go back and address in what way (or ways) humanity is Created in the very image of God. This is necessary because it supplies the basis for answering you’re question.
So we have already supplied a brief description of God, but admittedly a very brief one. So allow me to ask a question. Besides Jesus, has any human person actually seen God “face to face?” Noah, Abraham and Moses saw “manifestations” voices, fiery – bushes, clouds, and “the wind,” but I can’t recall anyone actually seeing “The Father – Yahweh God” face to face.
Peter, James and John came closest at the “Transfiguration” of Jesus.
The point I’m leading to is why is this? The answer is “Because God is Spirit” and thus cannot be seen except by other Spirits, such as the angels.
God in Creating humanity has gifted each of us with “part of Himself.”** We, like our God have a mind, an intellect, and a freewill.** We also have a soul that animates these attributes as well as our physical bodies. That is to say, it is the human soul that gives us life.
No other creature, nothing else in the entire Created Universe, is so blessed.
So then we ask, why are we so blessed? Why are we Created in the image and likeness of God?
The answer to that question also the answer to you’re query.
It is necessary to understand both how we are “made in the image and likeness of God,” as well as why.
Let’s answer the “how first.”
Quantify for us “your mind.” No, not your “brain” which is physical, but your mind. How big, what shape, what color, what does it look like. We can’t because while we can prove that “main, intellect, and freewill” exist, they can’t be seen, measured, (physically) touched or smelled. Why is this? It is because all of these attributes are “Spiritual” just as are Gods same attributes. God’s are Perfect, while ours are very imperfect!
The reason God did not place us directly in heaven with Him relates directly as to why God Created us in the first place and why God has blessed us with these specific attributes.
The answer lies in the words found at the end of the story of Creation for each of the six days.** “It was good.”**
It was so GOOD in fact, that God Willed to be acknowledged and thanked for Creating “such goodness.”
No other Created thing, no other Creature, only humanity held the possibility of doing this. God desired this to such a degree that He wanted the thanksgiving to be sincere and from the mind, intellect and freewill that he placed in each of us. In other words, God desires that we come to this conclusion based on our ability to freely do so, or to freely choose not to do so.
“Heaven” is the reward for those who hear, know and do so; “Hell” is for those who freely choose not to do so. Not so differently than: Mk. 2: 27 “ And he said to them, ‘The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; “ in the same way heaven is made for man, not man for heaven. Thus there is a price that has to be “paid” [no, on our own merits we CANNOT earn heaven.]
**Mt. 13: 10 **“Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.”
Love and prayers,
Pat
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Shin
Guest
God put the angels and men to the test, to see if they truly loved Him.
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NeedImprovement
Guest
I agree with PJM, HeWillProvide…great question. But as Shin points out, we still would’ve been put to the test.
What kind of makes me smile, is that, if the Holy Angels weren’t completely permeated with unending joy - “…beholding constantly the face of the Father”, they might have been asking the flip side of your question, ie:
“Why didn’t God put us on earth first, before having us be with Him in Heaven?” ; because St. Jean Vianney says, “If the Angels could envy us, it would be because of the Eucharist.”
There has been speculation that they would have, if it were in their nature, also envied our opportunity to gain merit …which is of great worth in Heaven…and again for our ability to co-create children with God.
We’re doing OK …
What kind of makes me smile, is that, if the Holy Angels weren’t completely permeated with unending joy - “…beholding constantly the face of the Father”, they might have been asking the flip side of your question, ie:
“Why didn’t God put us on earth first, before having us be with Him in Heaven?” ; because St. Jean Vianney says, “If the Angels could envy us, it would be because of the Eucharist.”
There has been speculation that they would have, if it were in their nature, also envied our opportunity to gain merit …which is of great worth in Heaven…and again for our ability to co-create children with God.
We’re doing OK
…
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stringbeanduck
Guest
I think it’s a matter of love. Putting us in heaven doesn’t really give us a choice, but here on earth we have the ability to choose whether or not we want to be with Him.
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ConflictedBoy
Guest
The Question here, I think, is one that I’m sure nearly all Christians find themselves asking. Our Lord gave us the ability to make one choice over another , to do right, or wrong, and ultimately to receive or reject the one true God. And such, as stringbeanduck says, is not possible in the other scenario.
I do think the line of thought behind this question has to do with the “problem of evil”, perhaps?..Why does an all knowing, all loving, all powerful God allow evil in the world? Welll…Father Corapi said it best this past Good Friday, when he said “…Unfortunately Protestant theology cannot seem to answer the question of suffering: GOD ALLOWS SUFFERING in the world so that out of harm can come a greater good.” He continued to explain Christ’s being handed over to the Romans, to be crucified, and yet what greater good can and ever will come of what a sad day that must have been? For out of Christ’s crucifixion, we may be given the chance to live with Him forever when we die! On the larger scale and even on the small, God can use even the worst of things to bring out something that could inspire us all.
Hence, therefore, I find it difficult to keep our Earth separate from our suffering. Our Earthly lives ARE about suffering, we’re a fallen race, drug down by the conseuences of our Original Sin. But even with that you could find: suffering teaches perserverence, perseverence breeds compassion, compassion breeds love, and that, is our greatest weapon against evil.
This earthly life is but a preliminary (as my mom calls it), its a bridge, whereby afterwards we will stand before God, asking ourselves “did we follow God’s plan?” or “Did we follow our own?”. And imagining myself standing in Heaven, I would honestly want to remember my life on Earth. I would want to remember how I never could have got there on my own, but only by the grace of God.
Our Earthly life is a PRECIOUS thing! Even with the sadness and pain that exists in the world, there is much that all the same, makes it worth living
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PJM
Guest
He along with St. Peter Jullian Emyard, are my favorite male Saints, St. Theresa is my favorite female Saint.I agree with PJM, HeWillProvide…great question. But as Shin points out, we still would’ve been put to the test.
What kind of makes me smile, is that, if the Holy Angels weren’t completely permeated with unending joy - “…beholding constantly the face of the Father”, they might have been asking the flip side of your question, ie:
“Why didn’t God put us on earth first, before having us be with Him in Heaven?” ; because St. Jean Vianney says, “If the Angels could envy us, it would be because of the Eucharist.”
There has been speculation that they would have, if it were in their nature, also envied our opportunity to gain merit …which is of great worth in Heaven…and again for our ability to co-create children with God.
We’re doing OK
Love and prayers,
S
Shin
Guest
‘We must be pure. I do not speak merely of the purity of the senses. We must observe great purity in our will, in our intentions, in all our actions.’
St. Peter Julian Eymard
‘That great saint, St. Charles Borromeo, had in his apartment a fine cardinal’s bed, which everybody saw; but, besides that, there was one which nobody could see, made of bundles of wood; and that was the one he made use of. He never warmed himself; when people came to see him, they remarked that he placed himself so as not to feel the fire. That is what the saints were like. They lived for heaven and not for earth: they were all heavenly; and as for us, we are all earthly.’
St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars
St. Peter Julian Eymard
‘That great saint, St. Charles Borromeo, had in his apartment a fine cardinal’s bed, which everybody saw; but, besides that, there was one which nobody could see, made of bundles of wood; and that was the one he made use of. He never warmed himself; when people came to see him, they remarked that he placed himself so as not to feel the fire. That is what the saints were like. They lived for heaven and not for earth: they were all heavenly; and as for us, we are all earthly.’
St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars
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Cluny
Guest
Isn’t the very question “Why did God not do things differently from how He did them?” itself
meaningless?
Consider this: God loves His physical creation so much He made it to start with, and then became a man to be as closely identified with it as He could be (so far as we humans can tell).
meaningless?
Consider this: God loves His physical creation so much He made it to start with, and then became a man to be as closely identified with it as He could be (so far as we humans can tell).
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I_Believe
Guest
Good answer in post 4 PJM
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theotikos
Guest
Well people are thinking this through rather falsely in regards to divine revelation by Catholic visionaries like St. Anne Catherine Emmerich. In her book entitled the Life of Jesus Christ and Biblical Revelations, she was shown by God that at first Adam and Eve were spiritual beings living on paradise. And they were created by I AM THAT I AM (God of course but for sake of point) because they and us now were created so that we can fill the void that the fallen angels created. Therefore, God would multiply Adam and Eve’s children on the earth through His own plan not the way it is now. The saint expressed that Adam and Even were shown how they would bear children before they disobeyed God. But when Satan beguiled Eve to take of the apple where God had primarily forbidden them to eat from the tree (this book is more detailed), all started to materialize as Adam ate the apple. The light gradually faded in them and things became fleshly or materialized. It was not supposed to be that way. In this book set, there are four volumes. And her book about the Passion of Jesus Christ inspired the movie by Mel Gibson. I really admire how visual her descriptions are given her time and place because they were entirely given to her by visions, but I couldn’t describe visions for the life of me! A scribe dedicated his life after meeting her to record her visions.
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Cluny
Guest
I wouldn’t hold her visions to be dogmatic revealed truths.
Actually, St. Augustine was one (if not the one) who proposed that the purpose of saved human beings is to fill up the void caused by the angels who fell.
This is a theologoumen, not doctrine.
Actually, St. Augustine was one (if not the one) who proposed that the purpose of saved human beings is to fill up the void caused by the angels who fell.
This is a theologoumen, not doctrine.
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Shin
Guest
A correction, that would be Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich.
I have never heard that explanation before of them being ‘spiritual beings’ which sounds… unusual at the least. But I am not someone who has read more than a few excerpts of Emmerich.
Eventually I will, but not yet.
I have never heard that explanation before of them being ‘spiritual beings’ which sounds… unusual at the least. But I am not someone who has read more than a few excerpts of Emmerich.
Eventually I will, but not yet.
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theotikos
Guest
I wouldn’t take your advice because I found scriptural evidence for a mention of the souls saved during the flood that was because of Jesus’ descent into the place where they were held. Also, theology is not greater than doctrine. It is a form of science or philosophy. Truth should be held in relation to its Creator and the truths of which the Creator seeks to enlighten us and expose us to. Doctrine contains the essential truths of a faith, it is agreed upon by the community and believable to everyone. To suppose that I am taking her writings to that of Jesus Christ is not correct. I trust that the Church deemed her so blessed and saintly, second, I trust that her revelations are from God, therefore I trust it to be true. Therefore, I will not take your advice. Also, apparitions of Mary are private revelations but we know her messages have been tested and true and loving. It is a matter of faith in your question. It is better to believe and find it true and even also to believe and find it false, because you still receive the benefit as if you believed. The actual quote of what I said, is along the same lines. It is a matter of faith and to have found a true account of what the saint said and to match the exact same thing to St. Paul I really do believe.
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GodIsGracious
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If that’s the case, then there must be a heck of a lot of angels who fell!
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NeedImprovement
Guest
We might mention that it is out of love that God creates us. The intensity of that love which God has for each of us is something that is surely too great for us to bear or totally comprehend during our earthly pilgrimage.
According to St. Catherine of Sienna (The Dialogue) - the first woman to be given the title Doctor of the Church, God created us, then “fell in love” with His creation.
Commentary and excerpts on her book “The Dialogue”, from an article here susanjoan.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/st-catherine-of-siena/
In words reminiscent of the beginning of the Book of Jeremiah, God tells Catherine, “I loved you before you came into being.”
Read God’s words to Catherine, recognizing that God says these words to each of us:
“It was with providence that I created you, and when I contemplated my creature in myself I fell in love with the beauty of my creation. It pleased me to create you in my image and likeness with great providence. I provided you with the gift of memory so that you might hold fast my benefit and be made a sharer in my own, the eternal Father’s power. I gave you understanding so that in the wisdom of my only-begotten Son you might comprehend and know what I the eternal Father want, I who gave you graces with such burning love. I gave you a will to love, making you a sharer in the Holy Spirit’s mercy, so that you might love what your understanding sees and knows. All this my gentle providence did, only that you might be capable of understanding and enjoying me and rejoicing in my goodness by seeing me eternally."
According to St. Catherine of Sienna (The Dialogue) - the first woman to be given the title Doctor of the Church, God created us, then “fell in love” with His creation.
Commentary and excerpts on her book “The Dialogue”, from an article here susanjoan.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/st-catherine-of-siena/
In words reminiscent of the beginning of the Book of Jeremiah, God tells Catherine, “I loved you before you came into being.”
Read God’s words to Catherine, recognizing that God says these words to each of us:
“It was with providence that I created you, and when I contemplated my creature in myself I fell in love with the beauty of my creation. It pleased me to create you in my image and likeness with great providence. I provided you with the gift of memory so that you might hold fast my benefit and be made a sharer in my own, the eternal Father’s power. I gave you understanding so that in the wisdom of my only-begotten Son you might comprehend and know what I the eternal Father want, I who gave you graces with such burning love. I gave you a will to love, making you a sharer in the Holy Spirit’s mercy, so that you might love what your understanding sees and knows. All this my gentle providence did, only that you might be capable of understanding and enjoying me and rejoicing in my goodness by seeing me eternally."
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PJM
Guest
I knew about the first, but not the second. Thank you so very much
Love and prayers
Pat
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