I didn’t see this comment earlier, so I did not realize your anguish. God does not hate anyone. That is only your subjective and mistaken perception of the situation that you need to overcome, no matter how hard it may be. I hear there is a good book by Peter Kreeft called Making Sense Out Of Suffering. You might find some helpful insights in that book. Also, Fulton Sheen has a couple of books that I have found helpful: Peace of Soul and Life is Worth Living.
God’s the Potter. For whatever reason molding is required for humans to be perfected into the beings He’s after, which is a process involving time and our wills, and saints have to struggle to choose rightly as much as the rest of us. And, according to scripture, it appears that man is intended to end up higher than the angels. This may be a reason for Lucifer’s jealousy of man. In any case, if angels were perfect, none would’ve fell.
Hmm. I do not think God made them that way; if they had been unable to sin since the beginning of their creation, as I have been trying to make a case for, I don’t think they would have been considered perfect by God. Morally perfect, yes. Perfect angels and perfect saints, as in the embodiment of what God had in mind when He wanted to make angels and humans? No. I think that, as is necessary to qualify for being a perfect angel or perfect saint, they grew into or freely chose their moral perfection despite the real possibility of sinning and wanting to sin, like anyone else. Especially the saints, as they lived on Earth like anyone else and not one of them (except Mary, and we’ve discussed Her earlier) is said to have never sinned even venially, and there is reason to believe the angels went through a remotely similar choose-God-freely-or-not process before gaining the Beatific Vision. Only creatures already in the Beatific Vision absolutely cannot sin and only they absolutely cannot want to.
Anything that God created with true and total free will, no matter how morally good or morally “perfect”, can possibly sin and possibly want to sin if it hasn’t yet entered the Beatific Vision, or else it doesn’t actually have a total free will. The impossibility to even want to sin, when outside of the Beatific Vision, is of itself a type of lacking free will…something like pre-determined (because it was baked into you from your creation) mind control. It is Original Sin, not God, that colored us toward tending to want to sin, although instead of now undoing it He is using that to make those who overcome even *greater *examples of Loving Him, as they do so despite that tendency. A completely Free Willed person, however, like Adam and Eve, would (while outside of the Beatific Vision) have an equal possibility of sinning and wanting to sin or not sinning and not wanting to, or wanting to sin but resisting. If all those options aren’t there, including even the possibility of sinning or wanting to, then the person by default isn’t a perfect person who chose God out of free will, because the free will wasn’t really there due to the predetermined Mind Control aspect of it. A Mind created with only the possibility of loving God and only choosing Him isn’t a free one.
We must remember that this scripture is implying God as like a father who disciplines his son. The possibility that God Himself is chastising you is only to be considered if you have committed a sin and, even more particularly, if you have not been appropriately repentant and penitent, so that He may draw you back to the right track–which of course He wants to do if He loves you. A father, after all, directly chastises his son only for the sake of disciplining him when he is bad so he may turn out good. So too we shouldn’t think all suffering is inflicted by God, only those instances where we know of some way that it might be a direct and appropriate discipline for something we have done wrong (which makes it no less fair than parental discipline, if we find that to be the case).
We are not “punished” for someone else’s sin, but we do suffer for it. How is this different? Well, if someone with evil intent managed to set off a major nuclear bomb and billions suffer for the fallout of it, those billions are not being punished…their suffering is a natural consequence of the evil man’s sin. God is not inflicting that suffering. It is simply happening as a matter of action A causes action B. It is similar with the Fall of Man and Original Sin. Since the time of Christ (and arguably for some time before), Divine discipline is never enacted on our loved ones or on anyone else but ourselves on account of our own sins, not by God, so people who lose loved ones or suffer for someone else’s sin are suffering due to the “natural consequence” of the Fall of Man, but they are not then suffering by God’s direct hand as a result of their sins. Thus, such tragedies are never the result of God actively punishing us.
Sometimes, the seeming good really can be a snare for people. For instance, we have all conceived of, and heard of, people who became so comfortable and self-indulgent that they forgot about God, or else imagined that God must love them more than everyone else, which is pride unspeakable, and quite possibly outweighs any sin you ever commit now. The sins of the well-off and complacent often outweigh the sins of the suffering, if for no other reason than that the well-off and complacent have little excuse and yet (as we all know) still sin, sometimes more outrageously if not by simply thinking (pridefully) that God favors them more. Dear friend, this would certainly be a danger if you, even now, measure God’s love for yourself based upon how much suffering vs. good you must endure. Even if only subconscious, if you believe God loves yourself less due to your suffering and lack of good, then if you were suddenly graced with the good and almost none of the bad might it not at least be in the back of your mind that those who continue to suffer as you do now are less beloved by God? Only God knows for sure if that thought would enter your mind, and even if it would not perhaps He knows something similar, and is protecting you from a sin that would somehow be greater than any you may fall to now, a sin to which perhaps you do not even think you would be susceptible.
I have often heard that every specific instance, if not every moment, of suffering in itself can be a prayer offered up for the souls in Purgatory, or perhaps even as prayers of love aimed toward God Himself. Thus even if it is suffering not directly from God (see the difference a few paragraphs above) He can allow you to transform it into prayer and make it in some way a positive thing by doing so…and since it is indeed a special sort of prayer, only those who suffer can offer it up. The less you feel able to handle it, the more effective the prayers are, because that feeling is in itself a type of suffering. It is not that God is directly inflicting all this suffering, but He has given us this silver lining.
As I suspicion, perhaps that’s not what God calls perfect at all, at least not if it were true from the very moment of our creation. It would, after all, require a complete pre-determined manipulation of our minds to make them tend toward a certain outcome, and it would interfere with our having chosen God out of total free will, or at least a free will that wasn’t already manipulated in His favor.
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It still undermines the goal of the project, however. You would not enact a project that had a foregone conclusion, as it would not then be a legitimate project. If you wanted to enact such a thing, as I theorize God wanted, you cannot enact it with people predetermined to like you. It is the process that then becomes phony, meaning it is impossible for those people to be the “perfect result of the process” (which is analogous to the “perfect human” meaning the “perfect result of the process”) since the process itself wasn’t a process at all, and was a false illusion in that case.
Even saints do not necessarily like to suffer (it wouldn’t be suffering then) so even a wonderful saint might make a comment that is skewed by her own perception rather than being a true statement about God’s character. God does not treat us terribly, in the objective sense, we simply think so as we do not see the long run from our vantage point, much like a patient may think a doctor is being cruel if the process of his healing hurts or is uncomfortable. As suggested above, suffering only directly comes from God if it is justified discipline for sins we have committed, and any good parent does the same. Again, God does not treat us terribly; such horrific suffering that is not mere discipline comes from the Fall of Man, and God for His part hasn’t directly and fully undone the effects of that yet because it would undermine the goal He had planned out, a goal that can actually be enhanced (much to the Devil’s dismay) by that mishap we call the Fall; knowing that God loves us, we mustn’t expect Him to undermine His ultimate goal at any point in time, especially since in the long run, which is hard to see for now, that goal is also for our own greater good will make our destinies all the more splendid for it.
The specifics of how long each individual human must endure the process is something the reason for which I do not think I could grasp perfectly. Perhaps you, BobCatholic, have the potential to be a most exquisite and marvelous demonstration of how lovable God is, since to ultimately choose and love Him despite all the mental anguish you endure currently would be a beautiful thing. Thus, though I argue not all of your suffering is inflicted by God, perhaps His allowing it is because He knows you are capable of choosing Him after all that, and that then you may be one of the more glorious examples of having loved Him once you enter into the Beatific Vision. Rather than “hating” you, God may in the end prove to have loved you in a most special way, and you may be one of His most prized and beloved successes once you enter the Beatific Vision, specifically because of what you are enduring, something that would be impossible (again, as in logically contradictory, not because God “isn’t powerful enough” to do it) if you had been in the Beatific Vision instantly.
I am very happy to hear that you feel better!
The scourging is suffering here on earth. Not all suffering is self-inflicted. I did not choose to lose my job. I do not choose to stay unemployed, I apply for dozens of jobs a week. I do not choose to have a crazy neighbor harass me, I lived here 22 years without causing anyone any problems. There are other problems, all inflicted on me. I did not choose to have any of the bad things happen to me. If there was something I did wrong, I confessed, did penance and asked for mercy. If I’m STILL being punished for something I did wrong still, this means that I cannot count on God’s mercy. I don’t think you want to go in that direction.
Then I’m screwed. I can’t do anything right.
Those who didn’t fall were perfect.
This is why I want to be in the Beatific Vision. This is why I want the Beatific Vision. I don’t want to live here on earth, I’m tired of suffering. I’m tired of being pushed away from God by suffering. I’m tired of it. I just want to be with God. Period. Why won’t he understand that and stop pushing me away by dumping all this suffering on me? Why does he hate me that much that he won’t want to DRAW ME CLOSER to him?
Suffering reduces free will, so it cannot be total free will. In fact, if the suffering is too much like it is for me, I can’t believe I have true free will, I have no choice but to whine and complain because that’s how I was made. I was not made perfect. This is one of my imperfections - I cannot take suffering from a loving God or the hateful devil, I don’t have the strength, the skills, the ability.
Well, it seems he doesn’t want to, so therefore he doesn’t love me.
But the innocent suffer the consequences - they’re held responsible (temporally speaking) for the evil man’s sin. They pay the price. And God does inflict the suffering because he did nothing to stop it. Or even relieve it. Or heal them afterwards.
I don’t forget about God; I know God does wonderful things in my life. What about now? He moved his hand and the rain falls on me. Maybe not all the rain, but some of it. Still, he moved his hand.
Right now, I’ve suffered so long I don’t know if good things will ever come back to me.
The positive thing won’t help me. When I need help from God, I need help from God. I can’t help someone else if I’m on the ground suffering, paralyzed by pain.
Unfortunately, the opposite is true. By making us imperfect, he’s guaranteeing that we will fail and guaranteeing we will sin. There’s a word for this: entrapment. And then no top of that he’ll punish us for our sins when we have concupiscence which makes us want to sin? C’mon. How is that fair? How is that just? Why doesn’t God take away our concupiscence?
Thank you. I appreciate everyone’s prayers. My prayers aren’t working - God just keeps saying no to simple things, like a job. 5 months! I’m afraid of another 2001-3 where I was out of work for 1.5 years straight. Yeah, God really abandoned me then too.
I’ll take a look in the local library and see if I can find those books there.
I have been in similar situations. The unemployment rate is high and jobs are much more difficult to find. I suspect this recession will last 10 to 15 years. When I was unemployed for a long period, after awhile I quit sitting around and worrying about my situation. I had some money to buy good backpacking equipment. I went backpacking and camping in the high Sierras for weeks at a time. The John Muir Trail was absolutely beautiful. That’s God’s country. I met God on the mountain tops, along mountain streams in the valleys, in the starry sky at night, and in the sunrises. I took books with me to read by campfire, even though the books added too much weight to my pack.
If this economic depression keeps going, doing what I enjoy doing won’t be an option - survival will be.
Can’t. No health insurance, and my medicaid appeal is in limbo. They’re so swamped, that I don’t even have a date for my appeal after a month of waiting so far.
If I’m in an interview, I’m cheerful - I am happy if I’m called - the problem is: nobody bothers to call, no employers are hiring.
I’m working on something that may turn into another apostolate…it is going well so far, but then again, so were all my past apostolates until a surprisingly bad thing happened and the apostolate failed.
Are you registered with a parish church? Have you talked to anyone at the church for assistance? What about St. Vincent de Paul organization for help? Have you made an appointment with Salvation Army for assistance? They may be able to provide some help and as well as names and phone numbers of other organizations that provide assistance.
It is true; suffering and concupiscence do, to some degree, inhibit free will in the opposite direction as pre-determined mind control would. But unlike predetermined mind Control, suffering and concupiscence make it harder instead of guaranteed to serve God (although it would be a massive overstatement to say they make anyone completely unable to choose God ultimately), and so they enhance the outcome of the “project” (as always, for lack of a better word) whenever a person chooses God, since that person shows a lot of love for God out of sheer will to love Him in which they were willing to ultimately bear the suffering and ultimately (even if not always) resist temptation just to be with Him, whereas the person who was predetermined to never be able to sin was just doing what they were pre-programmed to do. The former person, who ultimately chooses God despite sin and suffering inhibiting their will to do so, demonstrates something amazing and awe-inspiring, as they are enabled by God’s Grace. The latter person, who was predetermined to choose God and never sin, demonstrates something expected and predetermined, and so not so amazing at all.
Whenever a soul makes it into the Beatific Vision, this is their healing, and only if we limit our thinking to this life does it seem like God might never heal some of the afflicted even though they ultimately choose Him. If we see the big picture, He certainly heals everyone who ultimately chooses Him–by saying “Well done, enter in.” Also, I respectfully disagree with you that God, by allowing the suffering, is the one inflicting it. I do not see allowing as the same thing as inflicting, so we may have to agree to disagree about that one, although I do beg you to reconsider thinking of it that way.
This again makes it seem as though this life is all there is, or that this life possesses such significance compared to the next that our sufferings are, in God’s eyes, the equivalent of a husband allowing his wife to be beaten. Instead, God sees the bigger picture and knows our sufferings can actually make us more glorious examples of “successes” in the grand plan–since loving and ultimately choosing Him after great suffering makes us even greater successes and examples of what He had in mind when He created us, which in turn means the greater the suffering the greater the glory of the success when we enter into the Beatific Vision, and thus the more splendid our destiny. In that way, God is not like the husband who allows his wife to be beaten (the husband sees no bigger picture and is very much on the same level as the wife; so to him, the suffering should appear just as severe as it seems to the wife, so of course he should save her) but more like the husband who allows his wife to endure a grueling training regimen so that she may win an Olympic medal, who will not stop her training even should she tire and want to quit because he knows in the end she will thank him for not letting her quit, when she wins the best award possible as a result. No matter how much she might have said “No, I hate this training so much I’d rather quit and I don’t care about the medal; I’ll be fine with a little scrappy consolation prize,” and no matter how much she might have genuinely believed that, once she wins the medal she will take all that back and see that it was all worth it. Same story between God and us. In fact, God is like a husband who can say “Honey, I’ve been through an even more extreme version of this training regimen. I know it’s hard, and I know you can do it!” Because God, as Christ, has been through this life, and suffered more greatly than anyone.
He does, though. He may love you in a way more exquisite, more glorious, more proudly. Those who do not suffer, who love and choose Him because it is easier for them than for you, will not be as splendid examples of having truly loved Him as you, who by choosing Him and ultimately being with Him will be one of the supreme examples of what it means to love Him despite hardship and temptation.
God is not the one who guaranteed that we [most likely] would fall [at least venially] from time to time, that was the fault of Adam and Eve (and ultimately Satan who tempted them) by committing the Original Sin, which passed to us as a natural consequence of their deed rather than an active punishment upon us by God. I know it seems hard to believe, but Adam and Eve were identical, in their amount of perfect free will, to the Virgin Mary, who could have sinned as they did but did not. Mary proved that, as humans were originally made, it was possible to live without ever sinning. As for why we are punished for sinning, it is because, as much as it may seem to, concupiscence does not by a long shot make it impossible to choose God ultimately, not when we have received the Grace of Christ in Baptism and revived in us through Reconciliation should we fall. Concupiscence still makes it harder, but no matter how hard it seems, by God’s Grace it is not even remotely close to impossible, and if it seems that way it is only an illusion. Thus those who ultimately fail to choose God as their ultimate end do so of their own free will, since no matter if it was skewed toward sin by concupiscence it still wasn’t destroyed by concupiscence at all.
For what isn’t the first time, thanks James! You are truly kind.I have to say, KindredSoul, that you, much like Prodigal_Son are serious gems in the Catholic domain and most probably under utilized.
But who would make someone unable to sin? That’s right, God gets 100% of the credit.
I see it like the husband who allows a bully to beat the daylights out of his wife. He stands there watching it happen saying “Oh, the beatings won’t be more than my wife can handle.” In this case, the bully is the devil. If a bully tried to beat the daylights out of my wife, I’d be grabbing a baseball bat QUICKLY and I WILL BEAT the daylights out of the bully if he attacks her. That’s because I love my wife. Why doesn’t God grab his spiritual baseball bat and beat the daylights of the bully?
This life is not all there is. The eternal life is more important. Why doesn’t God let me die and come into Eternal Life? I’m tired of the suffering. I can’t take it, this is more than I can handle.
So the question goes back to my original: Why didn’t God make us perfect this IN THE FIRST PLACE?
Unemployment is not the same as a grueling training regimen.
I keep asking God to stop the hard testing and just mark an “F” on my report card since I cannot handle it.
Right now, I don’t think God loves me as much BECAUSE of the suffering. I’m tempted to tell God to stop loving me period.
Then we are held responsible for Adam and Eve’s actions because we suffer the consequences of their actions. How is that just?
Well, there’s no way for me to love God any more than I already do. I’m pretty much worthless to him.
Hi Bob!
