Why didn't God save Neanderthals?

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As for the 2003 data, none of it has been refuted. The age of data does not make it less true today as they were 10 years ago. It’s this new data that is based on less sure ground of not fitting models.
Can’t see the reasoning there, since Homo Neanderthalensis and Homo Sapiens actually lived along side of each other for a few tens of thousands of years.

Neanderthals made jewellery, weapons, simple clothing, simple ‘art’, and there is evidence of ritual burial, and of even a little inter species fertilisation.
These are not facts, but Theory and the humans and Neanderthals living in the same century is debated with plenty of conflicting data.

The matter really comes down to, “what is human”? According to Catholicism you may believe in evolution, but at one time a male and a female were made human by the immortal soul being made part of the body & immortal soul union that is human by God. From these two all other people were decendent.

Neanderthals may actually fit some definition of what scientists might think is a sentient being. Any such creature we find on another planet or made in a lab should be given the respect of a human, since only God can tell if its soul may be immortal. Also, we don’t have the knoweldge to question God on whether Neanderthals are to be saved or not.
 
The scientists that at one point thought that humans and Neanderthals may have interbred have backed off on that theory completely.
Who there, Silver! I think you have this completely backwards. Until 2006 when the first full genome draft of Neanderthal nuclear DNA, there was little or no evidence for interbreeding of Neanderthals and Homo sapiens; However, the scientific consensus is now that between 1% and 4% of the nuclear genome of non-Africans today is orginally Neanderthal and arose as a result of interbreeding between the two species.

(In addition, Melanesians interbred with another ancient species of Homo called Denisovans who contributed between 4% and 6% to their nuclear genome.)
They say a few segments made it look like that, but it is much more reasonably explained by viruses copying DNA out of and into infected people and Neanderthals that may have lived many thousands of years apart.
Who are “they”? Not any reputable microbiologists that I am aware of.
This is another example of a scientific theory making shock waves and then departing the scene as “oops just another theory of yesteryear flung aside”.
On the contrary, yours is another example of someone getting hold of the wrong end of the stick and making erroneous pronouncements as though they were fact.
As for the 2003 data, none of it has been refuted. The age of data does not make it less true today as they were 10 years ago. It’s this new data that is based on less sure ground of not fitting models.
While it is true that the age of data in itself does not make it less reliable (it is true now as it was then that Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA falls outside the range of modern humans), it is a fact that in 2003 there was not much evidence for interbreeding between modern humans and archaic, now extinct species, whereas in 2015 there is very strong evidence that this interbreeding did in fact occur based on whole nuclear genome sequencing. As for your reference to models, what models are you talking about and how is the “new data based on less sure ground of not fitting models”?

(References to scientific papers in support of what I say is available on request).
 
Book recommend - written by a priest-philosopher: amazon.com/Big-Bang-Mystery-Creation-Evolution/dp/1565484339/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1427505357&sr=8-2&keywords=big+bang+big+mystery

I consider myself a pretty orthodox Catholic and I think we ought to accept what science has to offer and what Scripture has to offer. I think there isn’t a real contradiction, but we just don’t know all the details of why there isn’t a contradiction as of yet. As Catholics, we deal in mystery quite often. Transubstantiation for example. As for Pius XII, I’ll accept in faith the no-polygenism principle; none of us knows if or when a future Pope might revisit the matter in consultation with the Pontifical Academy for the Sciences perhaps. In the meantime, I can “learn to love the questions themselves” as poet Rainer Maria Rilke put it.
 
Book recommend - written by a priest-philosopher: amazon.com/Big-Bang-Mystery-Creation-Evolution/dp/1565484339/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1427505357&sr=8-2&keywords=big+bang+big+mystery

I consider myself a pretty orthodox Catholic and I think we ought to accept what science has to offer and what Scripture has to offer. I think there isn’t a real contradiction, but we just don’t know all the details of why there isn’t a contradiction as of yet. As Catholics, we deal in mystery quite often. Transubstantiation for example. As for Pius XII, I’ll accept in faith the no-polygenism principle; none of us knows if or when a future Pope might revisit the matter in consultation with the Pontifical Academy for the Sciences perhaps. In the meantime, I can “learn to love the questions themselves” as poet Rainer Maria Rilke put it.
For general information.

The “no-polygenism principle” continues today in the form of a large random originating breeding humanizing population “creating” that is, producing the human species over time. Catholicism states that the human species descended from a sole originating population of two. :D:D
 
For general information.

The “no-polygenism principle” continues today in the form of a large random originating breeding humanizing population “creating” that is, producing the human species over time. Catholicism states that the human species descended from a sole originating population of two. :D:D
Correct, and I do submit in obedience to this as a faithful Catholic. But I do have wonderings and a scientific mind hence my “mystery” way of trying to wrap my mind around all of it. I hope my previous post didn’t sound heterodox and I do thank you for the links on page 3 of this thread. In other words, I’m not going to go off and be a loose cannon on this when greater minds than mine have a long ways to go on it. 😉
 
Catholicism states that the human species descended from a sole originating population of two.
Is it mandatory for Catholics to believe this? Under pain of mortal sin? It is not stated in either the Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed.
 
Correct, and I do submit in obedience to this as a faithful Catholic. But I do have wonderings and a scientific mind hence my “mystery” way of trying to wrap my mind around all of it. I hope my previous post didn’t sound heterodox and I do thank you for the links on page 3 of this thread. In other words, I’m not going to go off and be a loose cannon on this when greater minds than mine have a long ways to go on it. 😉
You did not sound heterodox to me. It is proper and prudent to learn. That is why I posted “For general information.”

Natural science is a gift from God which benefits society especially in the medical arena. I subscribe to two science journals which include the research on cancer and other diseases. Nonetheless, at the same time, we need to understand what is currently being proposed regarding human origin.
 
Is it mandatory for Catholics to believe this? Under pain of mortal sin? It is not stated in either the Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed.
Two sole human founders of humankind along with Original Sin are not in the Apostles Creed nor in the Nicene Creed. They are Catholic doctrines and as such are part of the Catholic Deposit of Faith. There is a reference to man’s disobedience (Original Sin) in Eucharistic Prayer IV in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Mortal Sins are individual actions and I choose not to comment on them. I can comment on the result of Mortal Sin, but that is not part of this thread.
 
While it is true that the age of data in itself does not make it less reliable (it is true now as it was then that Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA falls outside the range of modern humans), it is a fact that in 2003 there was not much evidence for interbreeding between modern humans and archaic, now extinct species, whereas in 2015 there is very strong evidence that this interbreeding did in fact occur based on whole nuclear genome sequencing. As for your reference to models, what models are you talking about and how is the “new data based on less sure ground of not fitting models”?

(References to scientific papers in support of what I say is available on request).
I am very interested in both research papers and opinion articles about the last surviving Neanderthals. I would appreciate having your references. Thank you sincerely.
 
You did not sound heterodox to me. It is proper and prudent to learn. That is why I posted “For general information.”

Natural science is a gift from God which benefits society especially in the medical arena. I subscribe to two science journals which include the research on cancer and other diseases. Nonetheless, at the same time, we need to understand what is currently being proposed regarding human origin.
👍 Thanks! I trust in the principle - don’t know who said it first - that science and faith need never contradict one another, we just don’t have all the answers as to why not. Something along those lines. You may know the exact quote I’m thinking of.
 
👍 Thanks! I trust in the principle - don’t know who said it first - that science and faith need never contradict one another, we just don’t have all the answers as to why not. Something along those lines. You may know the exact quote I’m thinking of.
In order for truth not to contradict truth, science must be conducted properly and Catholic doctrines must be properly understood.

That is not the exact quote; however, the “meaning” dates to the time of St. Thomas Aquinas.
 
I am very interested in both research papers and opinion articles about the last surviving Neanderthals. I would appreciate having your references. Thank you sincerely.
So, there are two somewhat different subjects here:
  1. papers which present the evidence that there was some interbreeding between Homo sapiens and Homo neanderthalensis based on genome sequencing (molecular biology) of modern living humans, Neanderthals and Homo sapiens alive contemporaneously with the Neanderthals. That is really what I was offering.
  2. Papers and articles about Neanderthal culture, cognitive capability and late history based mainly on palaeontology. This is what I think you were requesting? This woukld include findings about Neanderthals in their last outpost in the corner of the Iberian peninsula before they became extinct.
Anyway this post is focused on 1) and I might say something about 2) in another post. Prior to 1997, no-one had been able to extract and sequence ancient DNA, so what we knew about Neanderthals was based on palaeontology, comparative anatomy and so on. Although it had been suggested that there might have been interbreeding between H sapiens and H neanderthalensis, particularly in popular literature (see for example Jean M Auel’s novel Clan of rthe Cave Bear), I think it’s right to say that the scientific consensus was sceptical about the notion of interbreeding. As a very interested lay observer, I was personally very sceptical about the notion.

So the genomic story really starts in 1997 when Svante Paabo, Matthias Krings and colleagues successfully extracted and sequenced mitochondrial DNA from the first Neanderthal specimen ever discovered. They started with mitochondrial DNA because it is more robust than nuclear DNA and because it occurs in thousands of copies per cell. The conclusion (amongst others) from that work was that the Neanderthal mitochondrial genome was (and this is putting it rather crudely and simply) about five times further removed from a typical modern human mitochondrial genome than the entire natural variation in the modern mitochondrial genome. From molecular biology point of view, this confirms the palaeontological conclusion that H neanderthalensis is a species distinct from H sapiens and puts the divergence bewteen the two species at about 600,000 years ago. This supported my prejudice that there was no interbreeding.

Move on to 2006 when Svante Paabo’s team successfully extracted and sequenced a million base pairs of the Neanderthal nuclear genome. (Svante Paabo is one of the pioneers and the leading expert on the extraction and sequencing of ancient DNA). At the same time a team led by Edward Rubin sequenced a smaller part of the Neanderthal nuclear genome. I remember reading these papers when they were first published and it was a very exciting time.

By 2010, Svante Paabo’s team had refined the techniques sufficiently to publish the draft of the entire Neanderthal nuclear genome. By comparing the Neanderthal genome with that of a range of modern humans, they concluded that there was a limited quantity of interbreeding bewteen modern humans and Neanderthals in Europe, after the last migration of anatomically modern humans out of Africa. The evidence is that although modern humans largely displaced Neanderthals in Europe and the Near East, there was a limited quantity of interbreeding so that between 1% and 4% of the genome of non-African humans today derives from Neanderthals.

Svante Paabo has just written a book about the work to sequence the Neanderthal genome and what we can conclude from the work. The book is due to be published on 15th April - I am looking forward to it very much.

Here are the references (note Paabo’s name does not appear because he normally, very honourably, puts it last on papers published by his team):
Krings, M et al, 1997, Neandertal DNA Sequences and the origin of modern humans, Cell 90: 19-30.
Krings, M et al, 1999, DNA Sequence of the mitochondrial hypervariable region II from the Neanderthal type specimen. PNAS USA 96: 5581-5585
Green, R. E et al, 2006. Analysis of one million base pairs of Neanderthal DNA. Nature 444: 330-336
Noonan, J.P. et al, 2006, Sequencing and analysis of Neanderthal genomic DNA. Science 314: 1113-1118
Green, R. E., et al, 2010, A draft sequence of the Neandertal genome. Science 328: 710-722

From the abstract in this last paper: “We show that Neandertals shared more genetic variants with present-day humans in Eurasia than with present-day humans in sub-Saharan Africa, suggesting that gene flow from Neandertals into the ancestors of non-Africans occurred before the divergence of Eurasian groups from each other.”
 
This is what happens when it is claimed that the story of Adam and Eve is real history instead of a metaphor or a myth. A metaphor or myth can have an element of spiritual truth about our relationship with God without being literally true.
Well at least most of the story of Genesis may have been metaphorical, it is an official Catholic belief that humanity did indeed start with Adam and Eve. (Of course, you’re a Lutheran so I’m not saying you’re obligated to believe that.)
 
So it is now proven that Man evolved from Neanderthals ?
This is non-sense (with all due respect) none of the leading scienticists in the field of evolution believe that we evolved from Neanderthals, but that we are “cousins” so to speak.
 
So, there are two somewhat different subjects here:
  1. papers which present the evidence that there was some interbreeding between Homo sapiens and Homo neanderthalensis based on genome sequencing (molecular biology) of modern living humans, Neanderthals and Homo sapiens alive contemporaneously with the Neanderthals. That is really what I was offering.
  2. Papers and articles about Neanderthal culture, cognitive capability and late history based mainly on palaeontology. This is what I think you were requesting? This would include findings about Neanderthals in their last outpost in the corner of the Iberian peninsula before they became extinct.
Thank you sincerely for your quick response. My granny curiosity includes both subjects. 😃

As I recall when we discussed science issues many, many moons ago, I could count on you to provide the research on the topic. As I am now catching up with current science, I will count on you to advise me when my “granny language” is a bit off when it comes to some basic principles of human origin.

Speaking from the Catholic position, it seems to me that the thread’s title “Why didn’t God save Neanderthals?” draws us into both basic natural science and the philosophy of human nature when studying those fabulous fascinating Neanderthals.
 
Science, May 7, 2010 and last reviewed April 4, 2012

From the National Human Genome Research Institute:

“Neanderthals lived in many parts of Europe and western Asia before disappearing 30,000 years ago. The Science article presented a draft sequence of the Neanderthal genome composed of more than 4 billion nucleotides from the bones of three female Neanderthals who lived some 40,000 years ago in Europe. These sequences were compared to those from five present-day humans from China, France, Papua New Guinea, southern Africa and western Africa. This provided the first genome-wide look at the similarities and differences of the closest evolutionary relative to humans, and maybe even the ability to identify, for the first time, genetic variations that gave rise to modern humans. An analysis of the genetic variation showed that Neanderthal DNA is 99.7 percent identical to present-day human DNA.” (NHGRI Researchers Win AAAS Prize for Neanderthal Genome Analysis)
genome.gov/27543529
 
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